You can follow that link to see why. Come to your own conclusions. I can only say that during my term as moderator this community came together to produce the most fantastic Wish List in gaming history (over 500 pages!). It might never be foot-noted anywhere or even mentioned when Civ3 gets released, but to see an on-line community stick it out for such a long period and with such determination was really a wonderful thing.

Along the way I tended to stay awfully quiet. I absolutely hated closing or moving threads, and this made more work for Markos. In this regard, I think I have been a lousy moderator. I never came up with polls. I hardly ever even had a good topic to add these last several months. For that, I'm sorry.

As you'll see in that controversial thread, Markos and I have very different thoughts about how "the public" should or should not handle its relationship with a gaming company. I think his is a one of "Keep a good relationship at all costs." He is notoriously rosy-eyed when it comes to problems in these games, and this clouds his vision.

But I understand him. This is his baby. And we can all aree that Apolyton is THE place for Civ-related stuff. So he and Dan must be doing something right.

On the other hand, I think he's sometimes too much of a company-boy for his own good. Then again, I'm sometimes too much of a trouble maker for my own good. In the end, he owns the board.

I thank all of you who helped and put up with me for two years. In a sense, I'm greatly relieved not to have to check this board for something "offensive." I can just relax now and make Markos really work for his money.

Thanks,

Sincerelly I hope you two now stop for a bunh of days to post about this discussion, then armistice and step back to more allied state

Please, don't go away from this forum. I think you are a good Apolytoner member and I think will be a pity to lost you.

quote: ...attacks a developer...

Any examples? There was not one attack in my thread. Please find one.

Adm.Naismith,

I think MarkG does too. I think the moderators and admins around here need to relax. (Like Ming!!) (I think all admins and moderators around here should be either Kiwis or Aussies since we're all layed back BUT NOT STUPID). =)

I think Ming does the best job around here.

Mark, I politely disagree with you (may I?). It's true that this is your site and I understand that you need the "friendship" of developers, but don't forget one thing though: we, the gamers, the civ community, we buy the games and we post here on Apolyton. Be careful Mark, you may realize one day that Apolyton has very, very good relations with developers but no community at all.

I think that a place where people are beeing punished because they criticize a game or a developer, or because post something that you don't like, is no longer a wothwhile place to post.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius on 03-06-2001 09:32 AM I think that a place where people are beeing punished because they criticize a game or a developer, or because post something that you don't like, is no longer a wothwhile place to post.

a moderator is not a simple poster. his position is totally different and dictates certain things regarding his behaviour

In my opinion, moderator or not, Yin (or anybody else) should have the right to criticize, even developers or Apolyton administrators (and he didn't even do that, just posted a sensitive topic).

If this special rule ("don't upset developers"), applies only for Apolyton moderators, I still don't agree, but your site, your rules. Just don't count on me as a moderator (now this will cause you serious ROTFL )

In fact are people who find all things that could possibly go wrong in a game and post them the most usefull kind of people for a company, because they can learn from them.

And the fact that he shouldn't post critic because he is a moderator does me think about Stalin who fired all generals who didn't thought exactly as him before world war 2 because after all : Generals should follow a more strick code of conduct them common people. Don't they ?

Thanks for all your efforts in making 'Poly a better place yin. I am more of a SMAC guy than a CivIII guy, so I don't have many comments on your moderating skills. I do have some comments on your posting skills though. I haven't always agreed with you, but at .owo, ACOL and here, I have found your posts to be interesting and thought-provoking.

I, for one, am sorry to see you lose your "mod" title. I hope that you will continue to post as a "private citizen".

Yin, I would also request you don't disappear, as you are a like the 'Ying', of MarkG's 'Yang'. I just wish you both could shake hands like gentlemen, and put all of this behind you.

Bkeela.

quote: Originally posted by kolpo on 03-06-2001 12:40 PM Because of the offensive non constructive tone of the message fail I to understand why it is so wrong to post that. There was also no clear written rule about that subject. I don't know any democratic country where someone can be punished for doing something that isn't clearly against the written rules. The only nations where things like that can happen are communistic and despotistic nations. And yes you have the complet freedom to rule this site on wathever unfair communistic way you want just like Sadam has the complet freedom to rule Irak like he wants, it is his country after all ? But just like with Sadam want I to say that the fact that it is his country(your server) doesn't make it good and doesn't change the fact that it is unfair.

Now this is just plain silly. Capitalist democracies respect private property, and servers and the websites that run on them are private property. the owner can do what he wants to on them, within the law. If the publisher of the New Republic magazine doesnt like the opions of his editior in chief, he's free to fire him (and did). Freedom of speech adheres in the publisher, not in the editor or reporter.(Usenet, which is sort of cooperative anarchy is a very complex case, but its not a website) In fact if the publsiher is prevented from firing whom he wishes, his freedom of speech is interfered with. You dont like the policies of this site, you can go to another one, or start your own. (far easier to start a website than a newspaper, say)

If i had started a website, and someone whom i selected as moderator had a private disagreement with me, and then chose to take that disagreement to the forum, id be royally pissed. and i doubt id even patiently let that person keep posting about the argument on MY forum, as Mark is doing. hes a patient man, more than i would be.

Sheesh, what gaul.

And this is not about hypeing for the developer. I have taken issues with things ive seen Firaxis doing, from unique civs to unit graphics. I am confident Apolyton will still be open to such discussions.

And btw, the whole Morris article thread was misunderstood - he wasnt talking about forums like Apolyton so much as Usenet. (note the reference to deja) Have you guys ever been to Comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategy (sissy pigs?) it is more or less just the way Morris charecterized it. And csipg.war-historical is even worse - to the point where William Trotter wrote a column suggesting that the hyperpickiness of that Grognard usenet NG was harming the genre.

Lord of the mark

Im attacking your use of rhetoric like "communistic" "despotic" and "like Saddam". I suggest we all go on over to kolpo's house and vote on which of us should get to sleep in which room, and who should get first dibs on the food in the refrigerator. Now Kolpo has the right to be overide our votes and kick us out, but thats just being despotic and communistic, right?

Now it certainly is in marks interest, if he wants to keep this site popular, to allow open discussion of civ games. He hardly needs to keep it open to attacks on him. I for one, would not go elsewhere if mark chose to quash such things.

Lord of the mark
"Im paying for this microphone" Ronald Reagan

I have a feeling that's the real reason for Yin being removed of his moderator privileges. The bug-thread with trolling accusations and private msg posting remark were just the excuse needed for Yin to get the sack.

And yes, it's Markos site. So he can do what he pleases. But a forum only is alive thanks to the individual efforts of the posters. And Yin's efforts were TREMENDOUS!

In the end I can only say this was a bad call MarkG, a very bad call...

And Kolpo:

You know, my main concern is that Yin, like the other moderators here, are volunteers. Mark, Dan, you get what you pay for. Since you aren't paying them, you cannot reasonably expect them to act anything less then the posters they are. If you are lucky, they will mellow out a bit. From what I recall of Yin back on Alpha.Owo, he is very mellow here.

However, take a lesson out of this, Mark and Dan. Write down every rule and code of conduct that you PRESUME everyone else will know when they are a moderator for Apolyton. Because the odds are, they won't know them all. That's human nature. Then, give it to your moderators. As it sounds like Yin wasn't told that what he did would be so worrisome to Mark, it sounds like if that had been done before hand, Yin may have understand that to have done as he had would be a great risk.

I would hope that this matter settles, and that Yin and Mark remain on good terms. If Yin would rather not be the moderator, then congrats. If Yin would, then I would hope that Yin and Mark can shake hands and settle this odd matter to each's satisfaction.

Mark, if a topic has been discussed even once before, even if it was months ago, another topic on it can't be discussed without being called a troll? Ok, now how many threads, on all forums, using your logic would be closed? More than I would care to count. Yin just posted an article which is of importance to the civ 3 community since they will be buying the game. We all now know for sure who's ass you kiss and who you care about. Both of those answers are the developers. Hey **** us right, we are just customers, we can be replaced with advertising.

Now whats so bad about being a troll?

Hey Yin..I take it as a compliment..but well I kinda think you to be a wee bit better than I

But for real folks..

(Clearing throat LOUDLY)

Quoting the Great Sir Rodney Of Los Angelas..."Cant we all..Just..Get along?"

I think we all need some lovin...

Lets just try and get along.

.Yin..u are a moderator..Here..I have the new list of Do's and Dont's

Mark..Give back his Title and lets all just "Agree 2 Disagree"

(My snoring awakens me)

Wow..had a dream..where all men got along..where one day..we shall all have the right to opinions..and vested interest in one common cause... A TRUE CIVILIZATION BUG FREE GAME!!

Thats my story and Im sticking to it!!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 03-06-2001 08:35 PM I see Mark's point (something I don't say often ), but I think Mark made a mistake in the first place by hiring Yin. No offense, but the moderator, as Mark said is a 'moderating' force, a objective person (mostly). Yin didn't fit the mold then, and he doesn't now, for the most part. A guy known as rabble rouser gets mod position, and you didn't expect this? Come on!

Now Thats Entertainment!!

OUCHIE..That hurts..

but truth often does!!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi