If so..will it have Mark's or Yin's stauesque figure within?

Heh Heh Heh

J/K

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

And......It's a draw!!

C'mon kids (MarkG and Yin) fighting solves nothing!

It's silly how this turned out. As you know, I think I deserved something more all things considered. But this is life in the big bad world of forums. Actually, it's a small miracle I lasted this long, though much of that time I was just watching more than anything else.

I think, perhaps, it was time for me to step down and let a more active person come in. I've also been wanting to express more of my opinions, which was almost impossible as a moderator. So while I'm happy being free, so to speak, blah blah blah (you know the rest ).

Now, let's just get a great Civ3 in our hands!

Yin, I have to say that Mark was right to be upset. Posting a private message on a public forum (especially one where the writer is an active participant) is very rude. At best, it shows a lack of respect for the writer, at worst, it's a breach of trust. If you had a problem with something Mark had said (and I agree with you, the wording of the letter was a little harsh), then you need to take it up with him privately.

Also, remember that as Administrator, Mark was your boss. Talking back to your boss in any situation is a bad idea. Again, it shows lack of respect. Note, I'm not saying don't disagree with your boss-it's the best way for your boss to know what s/he is doing right or wrong, but you should never do it in an angry tone, and *certainly* never in a public forum (Yes, I know you didn't say who had written the letter, but you did know Mark would read it). I've lost a job before for arguing with my employer in front of customers, so I know whereof I speak. On the other hand, I had another employer with whom I disagreed constantly-but did so in a respectful manner. Though I no longer work with him (he couldn't afford to pay me the money I needed), we are still good friends, and he took many of my suggestions seriously.

Now that I'm done yelling at Yin, it's your turn Mark :-). While I agree with your decision, I have to say that I do disagree with your disciplining Yin publically. It's a humiliating experience to tell people (many of whom have dealt with Yin for two years-and worse, many who don't even know him!) that he no longer has your trust-and why. It also hurts his chances of becoming a list moderator somewhere else. Imagine I had a forum on my site and was thinking of asking Yin to moderate it-do you think I would now? Of course not. I know without even talking to you (his boss) or to his references (and yes, I'd ask for them :-) ) that he is insubordinate and untrustworthy. I'm certainly not going to waste my time looking to see if his work is good enough to excuse one lapse. Worse yet, I'm going to know this for as long as the post is up (which could be months from now), which is even more humiliating for Yin (assuming of course that he learns his lesson). In my opinion (and the opinion of successful bosses that I've spoken to/worked with), the best way to discipline an employee is in private. It saves him/her the humiliation of being dressed down in front of their peers, and keeps the customers from realizing there was ever a problem (because quite frankly, I do *not* want to know that you're having troubles with your moderators. It completely shakes my confidence in your site overall.)

I'm not going to stop reading and posting on Apolyton, it's an enjoyable site overall (though if you could somehow add a spell checker to the posting mechanism, it'd be great-now I have to cut and paste to MicroWord), and my opinion is, as always, worth exactly what you paid for it.

Marc

Something you fail to realize, though, is that this is a volunteer position. I don't need ****ty remarks from my "boss" who owes me a hell of a lot more than that if not a goddamn paycheck. But I went in for free. That was my choice.

Finally, beyond all this Apolyton is an enjoyable site so lets make peace and hope/work/dream/ask for the greatest, funiest and most enjoyable (and bugless ) Civ game ever!

Since this forum is private, we have to respect the leaders.
I'll make it sort.

Who's right and who's wrong does it matter anymore?
But I find it quite disturbing that this was public.
As tmarcl wrote it, my father thought me the same thing in two fraises.
1. If you want to praise someone, make it in front of as many co-workers as possibly.
2. If you have to haul someone, always do it in private.

I hope you can learn something from these events and we all can continue posting here.

quote: you would see that i didnt have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs(the proof is the poll i myself started today) but with his choice to revive a dead issue(that of the jkm article)

You say you didn't have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs,Markos.....but actually by you saying he revived a dead issue, you are taking away his right to start a discussion on bugs. That story may also only be a dead issue to you. Doeas not how everyone else feel about the matter, count? Apparently not. He used that article to start his discussion on bugs.

That statement of yours just seems very contradictory to me.

And I don't always agree with Yin either, nor him with me...but I respect his right to his opinion the same as I do for say...Imran. I disagree with Imran a whole lot more than I do with other posters but I respect his right to his opinion as well.

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-07-2001 04:37 AM Are you now to dictate the "Apolyton Approved" way to start a topic?

i think it was darkstar who said that you cant associate the act of a volunteer with apolyton. so if ming decides to start banning people for no reason, i have no responsibility for it? it would be nice but it would never be so....

quote: Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 on 03-07-2001 04:24 AM You say you didn't have a problem with him starting a discussion on bugs,Markos.....but actually by you saying he revived a dead issue, you are taking away his right to start a discussion on bugs.

somehow i'm begining to feel that this and similar "desires" of me and dan would not be accepted by yin sooner or later....

Your PM was very demeaning and reeked of trolling on your position as well. Calling someone in roundabout ways was exactly the image portrayed by the disclosure of that message by Yin.

If you say he worded it wrong and you didn't print it to him in that manner, then please disclose just how you did post it. Otherwise it seems to me you were baiting him or just picking a fight and looking for a reason to can him.

I don't think all this is a good event for this forum, but I worry it's going worse and worse every time Yin and MarkG reply.

Please, STOP and cool down! It's almost like seeing two friends of mine insulting each other. It make me feel very, very sad

Almost as sad as would be a Civ III full of bugs

quote: Originally posted by MarkG on 03-07-2001 05:33 AM as long as he is an apolyton moderator, his right to revive such issues as this article, no matter what good intention he may had, is not something acceptable by me or Dan.

Are you here saying that since you (and possibly) moderators may receive information before official release, you consider it as a bad policy of you and moderators to talk:
a) about classified material (nonpublic)
b) negativly about them.

You also mentined some rules for a moderator.
(Rules are good, just as long it is in written form.)
Are these rules given in writing (or email) to each moderator?
Are these for us to examine? (Can't right now remember seeing it here.)

Do you have a place for moderators and you to talk privatly about moderating? (If not, there might be a need)

Just asking so there wouldn't be a need for next time

C.L.O.S.E. I.T.

Enough is Enough..we have road this donkey to town and back..

Beat this horse to death..

But alas..I aint the moderator..so..I'll just say thats my story and I'm sticking to it!!

Troll

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If they call an orange an orange, why don't they call a banana a yellow?-Christopher Lloyd-Taxi

quote: Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 on 03-07-2001 05:48 AM Then the next logical step for you to have followed would have been one of acting professional by telling him privately that you felt he was out of place in posting that article again as long as he was a moderator and that you would like for him to not do it anymore as long as he wishes to remain a moderator. Your PM was very demeaning and reeked of trolling on your position as well. Calling someone in roundabout ways was exactly the image portrayed by the disclosure of that message by Yin. If you say he worded it wrong and you didn't print it to him in that manner, then please disclose just how you did post it. Otherwise it seems to me you were baiting him or just picking a fight and looking for a reason to can him. Or getting insulted and "taking your bat and ball". :P~~~~~~

Psst..Hey Markos..Can I PULLLL--EEEASSEE use you Bat and Ball.since your taking it away and going home?

LOL..just trying to put a slight humorous spin on an otherwise RIDICULOUS discussion..I mean..lets try to resolve this CIV III issue..are there or are there not gonna be Cockroaches in the game with Ranged effects?..For real..I need to know NOW..so as I can be working on an improvement such as Raid..or even Terminix..city improvement..

(Well..all this talk of BUGS..I felt that perhaps CIVIII might forget to put in something to combat those pesky critters?)

Troll

Your Forum Civin Surfer

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Hebrews 11:1

quote: Originally posted by Jeje2 on 03-07-2001 03:52 AM Now how about an public election, are there any candidates? [This message has been edited by Jeje2 (edited March 07, 2001).]

It's been said that the person best qualified for governing (well, moderating) is the person who wants the job least. That being said....

ME! ME! ME! ME!

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 03-07-2001 10:22 PM A childish act or planned conspiracy? not sure but either way I'm disappointed in you.

Yes to both, but not necessarily in the way you think. I am, admittedly in my own opinion, qualified to be a list moderator. I don't want to be. I was being sarcastic in using the 'me's' saying that I wanted the job real bad, and hence was not qualified (and therefore, should not be list moderator). It was basically a (failed, obviously) attempt to lighten the mood a bit.

Mark...the only reason I would ever post a PM was if it were threatening me.

But I do not wish to discuss this in private. I feel whatever I say is good enough for everyone else to read. But I respect your wishes to drop out of the conversation and let things die.

My last comment about you dropping out when things get hot and being typical of you was uncalled for and I apologize. I guess I was baiting you, kind of like the way I thought you were baiting Yin. Anyway, just forget it. I get pissed at myself when I do things that I usually dislike for other people to do to others. Just shows you I aint poifict.

Would you expect a candy striper to know how to handle CPR? Triage? I wouldn't.

Yin, if you wanted out of moderating, you should just say so. If you are trying to play "cat", quit it. That will cause you to lose more respect/face with everyone here then just fessing up and going on.

It does sound like this is over. The best that can be done or hoped for is that people learn from this. Particularly MarkG (concerning moderators and making sure they understand everything that you believe they should... no matter how obvious or innane).

And hopefully, Firaxis will learn from it's experiences with SMAC and improve how they support a product, and how they handle their customers. I've yet to find a company that couldn't improve on customer relations.

quote: A childish act or planned conspiracy? not sure but either way I'm disappointed in you.

Ah! I forgot to mention who I was talking to.
My statement was aimed at the person who owns this site.

and if you consider that i dont have any business administration, marketing, consumer relation, web design, graphics design or unix administration training(i do have some training in programming though, and yes my job description on apolyton includes all of the above) then again i'm much more close to being a volunteer rather than a paid professional

But what do I find? I'm too late to see anything but the fallout of Yin's efforts.

It is, I suppose, inevitable at a site where folk share lively interests in a lively way that some tensions must come into existence and then surface.

One up to the owners that they allow public debate of their actions and show decent good humour. One up to Yin that he has not flounced off.

Reckon, though, you've lost the services of a good moderator MarkG and I'm guessing they don't grow on trees.