I think the topic of the thread "The myth of a bugless civ" is very valid especialy considering the upcoming release of civ3.
The tone of the introduction by Yin could be seen as an attack on Firaxis by someone who knows that Yin has a grudge agains Firaxis. However I don't know Yins feelings towards Firaxis, so ....
For someone who doesn't know Yins background the purpose of the tone of the intro is only to incite discussion, in which he succeeded very well. (A quality in a moderator which I think is very benificial if you want a forum which is very much alive)
Printing the whole article is the most objective way to work. If you don't want to be accused of pulling things from their context and you don't have to worry about the length of the article this is exactly how to do it.

Things went wrong when Yin decided to quote a personal message. If Yin were a journalist I would say he shouldn't have; you can't quote a source if you can't reveal who he was. However Yin is not a journalist and was obviously p***** off. It think it would have been better if he had not mentioned the message and have fought it out with Mark on a more private level.

My verdict with regards to Yin:
a)Yin was right to start the thread and did it almost in the best possible way.
b)Had Yin not acted on impuls he would have done the wise thing and settled things with Mark privatly.

Now to Mark (I'm sorry if I'm lecturing )
You and Dan have created a wonderful community. In order to keep up the good work I understand you need a good relationship with developers. But, again from a journalists point of view, you need to be objective in order not to loose your credibility and your audience.
Where Yin might have been too critical, you to me don't seem critical enough. (This is something which I especialy noticed when you kept defending CtP2 and Activision).

Software developers are not doing you a favor when they post on your site or give you the latest news. They need you to reach their customers; you are doing them a favour. Being critical will only make them respect you more and not take you for granted. Apolyton is the number one tbs-games site and they can not afford to loose you!

Concerning how you delt with Yin: I think you shouldn't have used the forum to settle things. You should have appreciated more the amount of work he put into the civ3 forums and if you thought his attitude was damaging your relationship with developers you should have discussed it with him in private.

My verdict with regards to Mark.
a)Mark should be more objective and critical
b)Mark should not underestimate the value of Apolyton for developers
c)Mark should not use the forum to settle differences with "employees".

Last observation:
Since this whole affair has gone public it might be a good idea to settle this whole thing by publishing all correspondence related to this issue in a seperate thread so everyone can make up his own mind, and next close any threads related to this subject.

1) our objectivity towards developers and games can be judged based not on what one of the owners of the site posts in the forums, but on which reviews are reported(all) and what kind of opinions are allowed to be posted on the forums(again, all)

quote: 1) our objectivity towards developers and games can be judged based not on what one of the owners of the site posts in the forums, but on which reviews are reported(all) and what kind of opinions are allowed to be posted on the forums(again, all)

I agree completely, but I think it would be nice if you,MarkG, would be more straight forward in expressing how you feel in stead of holding back in order not to offend developers. Mind you this is not an attack on you but only the impression I get from reading your posts. If my impression is wrong I stand corrected.

quote: 2) regarding the public handling of the issue: i begun to deal with it in private. when it went public by yin, the only thing i think i should do was to resolve it and discuss it in public. there could be another way in order to be clear about it towards our visitors.

In this case I think it would have been wiser to issue a statement saying this was an organisational matter which you were not prepared to discuss in public and next refrain from giving any comment on the matter.

But who am I ...?

quote: Things went wrong when Yin decided to quote a personal message. If Yin were a journalist I would say he shouldn't have; you can't quote a source if you can't reveal who he was. However Yin is not a journalist and was obviously p***** off. It think it would have been better if he had not mentioned the message and have fought it out with Mark on a more private level.

Maybe if you were to re-read my post you would see your intrepetation is flawed.

However, like McArther learned when he had a public dispute with his president, even great leaders have to be good followers, at least in puplic. If I recall correctly, it was his public dispute w/ Truman that was the beginning of the end for him. Now certainly Apolyton isn't the US, but the leadership issues are the same, and the result is the same. I have to agree w/ Marcos, this should have remained private. The whole thing is very sad, but I don't see how Marcos had any other choice.

Although I just read the relevant threads, I've been kinda a vagabond around here lately, so if some of my facts are wrong correct me or beat me with a large stick or something appropriate like that. I'm kinda fuzzy on the order of events, so I may have that wrong, but I'll work on the assumption that I've got it right.

Markos: I understand that you want this site to have a special relationship with Firaxis, which it does seem to enjoy right now. However, this does not mean that you (or the administration around here, including moderators) need to turn yourself into a Firaxis PR guy. To give you your due, although in my opinion you have passed over that line on occasion, you generally just stay in the realm of 'very enthusiastic supporter'...not always, but, usually. This site is obviously yours to do with as you please, but in all honesty, I've always thought that was the wrong tack to take.

Above all else, I think that community sites like this one need to be honest with the developers. Posts like the one Yin did are honest. Yes, I give you credit, you didn't kill it once Yin was no longer a mod. But I fail to see why you had a problem with it when Yin was a mod. Moderators are supposed to be the leaders of this community...they should be allowed to say whatever they want with regards to Firaxis, at least if it's intended to spark discussion and not just blast the company for no reason whatsoever. Muzzling the moderators and insisting that they stick to a company line just makes no sense at all in a community. If you want to be a PR firm, then it would make sense...

That doesn't seem to be what this is about, but since it was an issue I just wanted to make mention of it.

From what I gather, this is actually about Yin reposting a topic that had been declared dead. When are such declarations made? Are threads given a time to live and they are supposed to be dropped once that time is up? I honestly am having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one. If somebody wants to continue a discussion, they should be welcome to post about it as much as they want (reasonably, of course)...if the community doesn't want to talk about it any more, they won't reply and it will die a natural death anyways. Whether the poster is a moderator or not should make no difference. I suspect that, had the post been on a different topic, it wouldn't have made a difference...just the combination of the repost and the relatively negative topic came together and Markos had had enough of it. Is that correct? I don't know...that's just the appearance of things from where I sit. If that's not what happened, then the circumstances haven't been accurately portrayed, and should probably be clarified just for the sake of, well, clarity.

To be brutally honest, the signal to noise ratio around here has gotten pretty bad in the last few months (the main reason why I'm not around as much as I used to be)...I think that a post like Yin's should be left around because it will gather a pretty good discussion. Yes, even if it's been done before. People come and go...maybe somebody new will show up and have a new take on things. There's no reason to simply declare a topic dead.

That being said....

When I first saw this topic, the first thought through my head was "Great, now what did Yin do?" Yin, you seem to be a great person, and you're a tireless worker who really wants stuff to get done and get done right, but the reason I thought that was you do have a bit of a temper...somehow, I'm guessing I'm not the first person to tell you that in your life. I don't think it was really appropriate for you to post the private message in the forums, for two reasons. First, private messages are meant to be private...I just don't think it's right to make a private message public without asking permission first. And second, there was really no reason to go public with it other than you were looking for the community to support you and turn on Markos. Quite frankly, it was petty...it was designed to say to Markos 'ha ha, everybody thinks I'm right and you're not'. From the other stuff you said after that, you knew that he wouldn't change his mind based on any of the responses in that thread. It was retribution, plain and simple. You thought you'd been screwed over, so you counterattacked.

I've been admin on some boards before, both online communities like this and more formal university and corporate intranets. I would never have pulled your mod privilages for your original posts. But I would have shut you down in a New York minute because of your reaction. I know, it's a catch 22 thing...if your privilages were never pulled, you never would have reacted, appropriately or in-. This is just a review in hindsight. I think Markos was wrong to remove you as a mod, and I think your reaction to him removing you was wrong.

I know, I know, if I've got nothing good to say, why am I wasting bandwidth? My main point here was at the top...Markos, you really need to stop towing the company line and make this site one that is brutally honest. Just for example, look at the relationship between the Quake community and Id. There's not a Quake site on the net that pulls punches with Id, and Id is probably one of the most open game companies out there. The end result has been better products. On the other hand, look at how Apolyton (official Apolyton, not the forums) reacted to CTPII. There have been a few hints of disapproval, but nothing anywhere close to what Activision deserves for the totally irresponsible way that they handled CTPII...and you've treated Firaxis much better than you ever did Activision. Stand up and be heard, Markos...ignoring the new pop-up ads (as if you could.....) this site seems more and more like Firaxis is funding it out of their PR budget. I know it's not the whole reason why Yin's privilages were yanked, but mods should be able to say whatever they want just like anybody else. So should you...

quote: Originally posted by yin26 on 03-13-2001 05:26 PM Mannamagnus, Bell, lord: I'll agree with you 100% posting the private message (even anonymously) was not a productive thing to do. But I tell you, after all the hours I've put in as moderator, to be demeaned in private for making an interesting public debate was just simply out of bounds. If anything, there is now a clear public record for any future moderators to consider before they dedicate so much of their private time.

to clarify - I got no problem with what you did Yin - you were thinking of leaving anyway, you were pissed, and hell, it wasnt like it was a position that paid. In your position i might well have done the same thing.

What i take issue with is those who claim that Markos' REACTION to what you did somehow makes him an "unethical journalist" or impugns the integrity of this site. For you to do what you did was fine. For Markos to react the way he did was not only completely foreseeable, but standard journalistic practice at least in the USA. To expect otherwise is unreasonable. Its not wrong to flip your finger at the boss, but to do so AND expect him to keep you and make nicey nice is stupid.

Lord of the mark