As an opponent of Civ specific units, I am outraged!

The Romans should not be pre-destined to have the special Roman Legion unit!

If we're going to go this route, then why don't we just pre-destine the Pyramid Wonder to the Egyptians, etc, etc!

Look, Civ specific units in scenarios are definitely appropriate and needed but not in a general game! In a general game, nothing should be pre-destined for any Civ!

This is an outrage!

It says that having iron resources is going to make you able to build legions.

That doesn't mean legions are civ specific units?

Is this correct or am I missing something?

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-12-2001 08:58 PM Is this correct or am I missing something?

eeerr....

Listen guys, it's never too late to kidnap Sid and «request» that the Firaxis team takes unics out if they want him back.

Extreme circumstances demand extreme measures.

Now, I 'm starting to believe there is a special purpose to my visit to the USA this summer...

Edit: I saw the slides. Damn it. Unics are in.

I've spent too much time on OT and now things are out of control

One worry though: I would hope the AI plays well BOTH with unics and without unics and isn't crippled if we turn the option on or off.

But I trust Firaxis. They will do that.

quote: Originally posted by Maxxes on 05-12-2001 10:15 PM I think a lot of people asked for civ specific graphics, not units.

I assume though that in some text file, it would be possible to reset the Civ specific units to having identical ratings as the generic equivalent. This should then have the effect of civ specific graphics ONLY.

It sounds like there are enough options such that:
1. Those who like Civ specific units can keep them.
2. Those who hate it can disable it.
3. Those who only want Civ specific graphics can adjust the civ specific unit ratiings to their generic counterpart thereby achieving this effect.

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 on 05-12-2001 10:51 PM Let's just hope they do it right... I don't want to wade through a text file to do it for them

Editting the A/D/M/FP ratings in a textfile won't be that bad. Should only be 15 min of work. This ought to please the "Civ specific graphics" only crowd.

Thank goodness!

quote: Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS on 05-12-2001 09:44 PM Civilization specific units/abilities/starting techs/etc will be a rule, one that defaults on, but can be disabled.

quote: It will be balanced for both rule settings, since the civilization specific units are based on generic units (i.e. the Zulu Impi is a spearmen unit, but with a move of 2).

Above is good enough news for me. I initially didnt like civ-specific units/abilities/starting techs/etc (my God, they really intend to go full stop with this civ-unique thing). But since this feature can be disabled and the game "will be balanced for both rule settings", its OK.

However, if I nevertheless have default access to this civ-unique feature, I will at least try it out a couple of times in order to compare. Give it a fair chance so to speak. In order to evaluate I would like to be able to switch easily between both rule settings. Therefore I hope they dont just refere to strenuous textfile tweaking, then the player want to switch between specific/generic rule settings. I generally dont mind tweaking the text-files, but THIS particular option should be easy accessible with an all-in-one on/off checkbox-option in some appropriate in-game preference screen.

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 on 05-12-2001 09:56 PM Yes, will the game be balanced both with and without unique units? I certainly hope so... The problem is, if "disabling specific units" means removing things like legions and panzers althogether, the catch-22 of this feature being optional could be that without it, you are playing a stripped-down version of the game... a version that is not designed to really stand on its own two feet.

I assume that the civ-specific units/abilities/etc is automatically replaced with generic counterparts, once I choose the checkbox-option Unique Civs = NO. So there will not be any unit-techs with non-available units in them. Also, everything else throughout the entire game must be adjusted automatically to generic, with a click of that preference-screen checkbox option.

Roman legions were more powerful than other nation's legions. They were better trained, equipped, etc. So stop complaining. Why shouldn't they be more powerful? Each real-life civilization has had their own unique units, I am for anything that makes the game more realistic. The Zulus had no access to bronze, yet in earlier Civ games they could produce Phalanx units like there was no tomorrow. Not only should there be Civ specific units, but totally different units for each civ based on resources. I don't like seeing the generalized "Armor" units. I like the idea of Germans having Panzer's, Americans having Sherman's. They just have to create specific units for each civ. What would Babylonian tanks be called?

I agree with Civ specific Wonders... It's stupid that the Vikings can build the Pyramids. The Pyramids were built using stone and sand adobe bricks from the deserts of Egypt, Where are the f*cking deserts in Scandanavia huh?

quote: ...I agree with Civ specific Wonders... It's stupid that the Vikings can build the Pyramids. The Pyramids were built using stone and sand adobe bricks from the deserts of Egypt, Where are the f*cking deserts in Scandanavia huh?

Given this, why should the Romans be better at creating legions if they have a totally different start-out than they did in our history?

This aside, the fact that Civ-specific features can be disabled has taken a weight off my mind.

Actually, I don't see this as such a great revelation- I would have been very surprised if they didn't include an option to turn special units off.

What would make me really happy, and get me to order a whole case of shut-the-hell-up, is if there was a third option that allowed special units to reach their full strategic potential. Having special units on doesn't do much for strategy- it tends to lock you into a certain style of play regardless of the situation, depending on which civ you choose to play. Turning them off doesn't help deepen the game obviously, and if the special units are tweaked to have the same stats as their non-special counterparts, all you have is a graphical perk that once again does nothing for strategy.

Special units could greatly increase the strategy and the fun of a game if you could control which special units you get, depending on your situation. There have been numerous posts on these forums attempting to improve special unit implementation, and all are based on this idea, of you having some control over which special unit you get, instead of it being fixed. For instance your special unit is based on the terrain around you at the start of your game, or based on the wonders you build, etc..

My favorite solution is to have it based on technology. If Iron Working is needed to trigger the building of Legions, then the first civ to reach Iron Working gets to choose if they want Legions or not (they might choose not if they're angling for some other special unit further down the line that would serve them better). Every civ could only get one, and since there are twice as many special units as max number of civs in a game (as far as we know - 7 or 8 vs. 16) everyone should get one they like.

Whatever the trigger, the main idea is that the players have some control over which special unit they get, instead of having it be fixed thousands of years in advance. What's the fun in having something fixed? Its like having all the spots you can build your cities be preordained, and you have to build them in order, spot one, spot two, etc... Its silly to have that fixed in advanced, and its just as silly to have your civilization's technological discoveries fixed thousands of years beforehand.

Firaxis, we need a THIRD option! You guys are sooo close to having special units be one of the best features of the game, if a strategic choice option is included.

Set starting civs is one small step better than having absolutely no customisation at all but no further forward than the concept introduced in SMAC. It is a disappointingly poor second place to having truly unique civs develop during the game so no two "Roman" nations are ever quite the same.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan on 05-13-2001 04:49 PM But why the silence on the two biggest burning questions here, how many max civs (7 or 8 or ??) and what years the game starts and ends?

42

My problem is that... sure, we can play with no specific units. But Firaxis' decision to go with pre-set civ units and other stuff means that there is no chance I will get what I want:

Civ-specific bonuses that are created by the actions and decisons of the player.

What's the point if you can't earn the bonuses? Well, I guess some people would rather have them on a platter. It's too bad, I think it would have immesely opened up the strategic possibilities in civ, and given the player a real feeling that it was their civ, and not a default civ with some fixed ability.

Cyclotron, Grumbold and others, let's all chant together: "third option, third option!" One that gives you choice in determining the special units. This is not grumbling, this is trying to influence the gamemakers so they'll make a better game. Jordanz19, if you don't see how this simple change would make the game so much better, look again. There would be so many hard decisions to make regarding which special unit you choose, to go for something early or late in the game, to get one as a blocking move to prevent someone else from getting a good one, research races to reach them, and so forth. An endless array of strategic gambles and choices, all wiped out by having it predetermined. So no, I don't want the whining to end, and Roman, this camper is still not happy.