I think the most important thing is that us resource debaters get one good system we all agree on, and then try to present that to the powers-that-be. I mean, nobody will listen to us if we are perpetually arguing. Arguing must serve a purpose, and I really want to get a system that everyone agrees on here so we can put all our support into the idea.

[b]About the idea of stockpiles:[b]

Besides my bias because they are IMO too messy and difficult, there is the matter that stockpiling is just a, well, more complicated method of achieving the same goal.

We have established that energy cannot be stockpiled, and that an intangible thing like industrial might also cannot be stockpiled.

If you consider a factory that takes 5 coal a turn, for example, as long as you have at least 5 coal being mined, any excess will be useless to you. You could trade this externally, instead, right? Okay, so if you have an income of 10 you trade 5 of it per turn to a foreign city. He now also has 5 per turn for his coal factory.

However, in the above scenario, wouldn't my system work exactly the same way, except without messy numbers? If my city mines coal, I can trade it to other cities so they too have coal. Excesses are considered lost until I decide to trade, at which point my excess becomes a trade route to another Civ.

These two systems accomplish the same goal, but one is more simple and less of a headache. The "realism" you would get by the above system is negated by the fact you would need to have "recipes" for units... since once you quantate resources, everything needs a certain amount, and you are back to basic mandatory resources. Trade routes are easier, long term like real life trade, and they have no recipies or yearly incomes to think about and no calculations to make. In the long run, the leader of a kingdom doesn't sit around and count coal. Usually, private merchants handle trade, and trade in real life was (and is) conducted on a mass scale. In a course of thousands of years like in Civilization, a market shortage or excess is a drop in the pail. There is really no need to simulate such small happenings, and it would make Civ3 more work than play.

In conclusion, I say two things:

1) Stockpiling of resources is mutually exclusive with the very nature of the energy/supplementary resource system, and
2) Stockpiling is unrealistic over the long term and is too complicated and small for good and correct gameplay.

I'm just so psyched about the newly released information, I realized that they are just going to do the right thing. I'm sure when I see the final game I'm going to say, "Wow, that's better than my system, and more intuitive." That's how it always is with these guys.

The thing I would love to see is that you need oil to use "oil-using" units with fosile-fuel engines. This would make resources an important issue for diplomacy or even war in modern times (unless you specialise in other units as alternitive)! Let's face it in today's world natural resources make all the difference. Look at the Gulf War. Maybe even use oil to trade for things your nation could use from others and create a global resource economy. This way you could wage economic war as well by trying to monopolise resources. But in case of oil I think this should be used as an extra and that for example all nations should have a minimum per turn to operate a certain number of units according to the surface of their empire. It would be great if a civ could for example operate a number of "extra" units outside there cities using oil for each oil icon in their zone of control. That way one could have "reserve" units in cities or units without oil allocated to them in reserve, just like nations have in the real world! Artillery in a city could then be used to defend it but you can't move them unless you allocate oil for them. Maybe they could even save up oil in peacetime as a strategic reserve, just like until now I used gold as a reserve to build units fast when war breaks out. I think oil icons( just as any other resource) should then probably be hidden until the right tech is developed to only induce a resource race when the resource is dicovered and can be used. This way you might have a bad island nation build on desert and so lag behind. And then suddenly have a lot of oil at your disposal to take revenge. That seems very nice gameplay and realism to me for a civ game...
It's just an idea that might ad a level a realism to the game and some different strategies.

And as Sparky said, could resources get depleted?

Feel free to comment !

PS. Keep up the good work Dan & the whole Firaxis team! I've never been this excited about a game before!

Excuse me if my English spelling in not perfect...

quote: Originally posted by GaryGuanine on 03-26-2001 12:26 AM Youngsun, I kinda see where you're going, but I just think it's wrong. No, I won't admit that. If I want to have a wealthy capitalist country, trade should be my main objective, a good thing. If I'm running a religious fundamentalist civ then, to me, trade is a bad thing. If my civilization is communist, then international trade is often seen as a bad thing. Forcing civilizations to engage in international trade is wrong. Again, this brings up the point that you're taking away choices, and making choices, as cyclotron always says, is what makes Civ games great. Gary [This message has been edited by GaryGuanine (edited March 26, 2001).]

Communist block - Cuba to USSR and Eastern Europe - Sugar. in return oil, manufactured products. USSR to Eastern Europe - Oil and raw materials. Eastern europe to USSR - Relatively advanced manufactures, consumer products.

No multinationals, no banks, no exchanges, but trade nonetheless.

Applies even more strongly to "fundie" regimes.

1) Only shields will be in the production box, same as Civ 2;
2) however, some units will require a certain resource/"raw material" in order to build;
2) Resources are seeded on the map and all cities linked to a city that possesses a resource are supplied with that resource.

From this alone, it seems that "energy" is again being abstracted, although raw material is now a real factor in the game. I would hope much of what we're saying here is still viable and maybe even useful to anyone working on this part of the game.

quote: 1) Only shields will be in the production box, same as Civ 2; 2) however, some units will require a certain resource/"raw material" in order to build; 3) Resources are seeded on the map and all cities linked to a city that possesses a resource are supplied with that resource.

Nice summary raingoon!

Shileds are there but they are not the same as the one in civII. In civII, shields represented both works+resources but since a resource got splited from the shield and allows to build certain things, I see the shields as pure works or labours.

Trade will be commodity based, I believe and this is like my dreams come true!

Apparently the most fervent opponents of the ‘mandatory’ system don’t like the fact you can’t build certain units at all without certain related resources, eg impossible to build a Legion without 10 Iron. By the following I want to propose a compromise.

You can always build every unit, whether it be a simple Legion (or whatever pre-gunpowder infantry unit) or a more advanced Tank unit without raw materials. The only difference is, that the strength of the unit would be slightly adapted depending on whether you use raw materials, and, if you use them, which material you use. That way, you still have the choice not to trade, and play isolated (communist economy should be excellent for that style). However, trading for certain resources will give you certain bonuses, while not making it absolutely necessary to survive military or economically.

Let’s give a concrete example:
Building a legion (just a general name, not meant to represent the Roman army type) would cost 40 Barrels/Energy Lightnings/Labour Points/Whatever-You-Want’s and optionally added to that 10 Raw Materials.
If you wouldn’t add any raw material to produce it, it is assumed you’re building the unit with some basic everywhere-available resource, eg Stone. Then you will get an infantry unit with stone clubs. They will get a –25% combat penalty in attack and defense.
If Wood’s used for your clubs, and consequently if you pay 10 Wood, it’s a minus 12% penalty. Copper (swords then, probably) would give the normal stats. When you use 7 Copper and 3 Tin (=Bronze) you get a +12% bonus and finally Iron would give +25%.

I’ll summarize the advantages. This compromise would:
1) create some diversity among the otherwise same-old boring ancient units, just as Morale had that effect in SMAC.
2) accurately represent the arms struggle in the Stone-, Copper-, Bronze-, and Iron Age, thus make the Ancient Age much more exciting, as is wanted by many people. Much better than Civ2 with just a stupid tech called ‘Bronze/Iron Working’.
3) keep trading of commodities.
4) not make these metals mandatory for unit construction. For example, well-trained Aztec wooden clubmen still stand a good chance of winning against Greek bronze swordsmen.

By the way, I think it’s not right to consider Wood as a basic resource and therefore not count it to the commodities. The desert-Egyptians imported wood, at a particular moment the English as well out of Sweden to maintain their large fleet. Not everywhere available, thus no ‘basic resource’. Stone I wóuld assume to be basic, cause even if you wouldn’t have stone available, you can *always* use another material, eg clay to build the same thing (Babylonians built their city wall out of clay cause they lacked stone). This doesn’t count for Wood. For example, have you ever seen a boat built with stone?

I also have another idea about Energy/Raw materials. No chance it would make it into Civ3, but I’ll post it anyway, for the sake of fun and discussion.
If in a city the energy production would rise above the raw material production, the energy would be lost, just as you already proposed. To make it concrete:

Rome, in its upper glory, has 15 citizens ( bit more than 1 million people in the Civ2 population system, which I don’t like btw. I prefer the linear 1 person = 10000 people. More about this later.). Thus creates 15 energy/barrels/lightnings/labour (actually I prefer the term labour, cause you always start with labour-producing citizens; their labour-output is just increased by energy resources and city improvements). Rome is sited near the Tiber, which means there are 3 river squares in the city radius, so because Rome has a Water Wheel, this means 3 extra Labour (under the condition each river tile is worked on), ultimately resulting in 18 Labour. The city is building a Phalanx, costing 20 Labour and 10 raw materials. But Rome only produces 5 Iron (or Copper, Wood,...) per turn, with no ability to get more Iron by trading. Thus the unit will always take at least 2 turns to complete. But then the city has produced 36 Labour! What happens to the other 16? Indeed, it disappears. But that means there are 8 people whose potential Labour is unused, in other words, they’re workless! Therefore I think a Labour abundance should create unhappiness, representing the unemployment problems through history. Dedicating a percentage of your tax income to Social Security (Civ1/2 Luxuries renamed) should mend this problem partially. A side-advantage of this idea would be that more population doesn’t always equal more power in the game. Indeed, having a population boom such as now in Africa would be disastrous if you aren’t prepared on it. It would at the same time increasing the realism of the game and its balance. Cause pop booming is one of the most unbalancing things there are in civ.

quote: Originally posted by GaryGuanine on 03-29-2001 12:26 AM My favorite people are those who come into a discussion when it's nearly over, and take things out of context. Gary

oooh, me bad

sorry i offended you.

LOTM

Indeed, the very essence of a supplementary system is what you described: a way to make trading advantageous but not strictly required.

You abviously understand our energy system well, and I think your idea of unemployment unhappiness is very interesting. But the thing is, people not working on your project would have other work, too...

I propose two additions to the energy model:
1) Specialists produce no labor points, as they are already occupied with their job and work no tiles.
2) Specialists, since they do not cause and are not affected by unhappiness, can be an alternative to unemployment troubles. Converting unemployed citizens into specialists may lower your shield/food bonuses temporarily, but will boost trade and stop unhappiness until you find a permanent solution.

To all:

I am encouraged by Firaxis' decision... It is obvious to me that they have not used stockpiing resources, and I believe this will be best for the game. They are using resources more than Civ2, another good step. Although our energy model will not be used, I am intrigued by it and I hope it will be of some future utility. I am satisfied that Firaxis knows what it is doing.

Thank you Youngsun, Gary, and Raingoon for putting up with me and hopefully altering the course of this great game for the better, I think Firaxis did use at least a few of our elements. I know Firaxis will not disappoint us, since it is true that Civers gave the game input!

Good luck, godspeed guys!

They've got a decent City Screen with all the information packed concisely onto one page, they've got a killer City View, and they've brought back the High Council of Advisors! Plus they're using resources to flesh out production and trade, and there's a new game value of culture!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 03-23-2001 01:19 AM I disagree very much. Trade SHOULD be emphasized. Why? Because trade is utterly horrible in Civ2, SMAC, CtP, etc. Trade is and has been extremely important. From the 1500s on it has competed with war for what is most important for countries (trade was how to get the most money). Civ is and should not be a war game. If you want historical accuracy (Civ games being historically accurate, what a laugher) play Europa Universalis. There you'll see how utterly ridiculous Civ2's war engine is and how important trade was.

i agree with him/her 100%. even though trade was not important in the middle ages, it was important later on, and is still important now. the u.s alone makes billions, if not trillions of dollars a year from trade.

quote: i agree with him/her 100%. even though trade was not important in the middle ages, it was important later on, and is still important now. the u.s alone makes billions, if not trillions of dollars a year from trade.

I'm a him .

Oh, and I support a trade-based Civ3. If you are saying that trade should be 'an option' then I want war to be an option. It is no hyperbole to say trade and war are equally important in world history. Especially after, say, 1492. Spain was the most powerful nation in the world in the 1500s, NOT because of its conquered territories, but because of the gold that was in those territories, allowing Spain to take the lead in trade.

quote: Oh, and I support a trade-based Civ3. If you are saying that trade should be 'an option' then I want war to be an option. It is no hyperbole to say trade and war are equally important in world history.

Exactly! War is already an option in Civ2, and it will be in Civ3... I agree they are equally important, which means that trade should be as optional as war. Beneficial, but optional.

Trade based? Civ3 should be civilization-based. By making the game center on trade, you are limiting Civilization. I agree that trade should be as optional as war... keep trade optional, like war already is!

Civilization should be a balance of elements such as war, diplomacy, and trade. That's what history is made of, and so Civ3 should be too. Once you upset this balance, you now have a different game, and one that many will not want to play. Trade is important, but it should be no more so than war or diplomacy.

Why are they unbalanced? Because you can get more by a war than by trading.

Okay, given that, the obvious solution is to give greater benefit for trading, to the point that it is on par with war, and people use it more frequently.

The answer is NOT to either stifle war or make trade mandatory; rather it is, like I have been saying, to increase the value of trade. Imran, you seem set on making people trade and making people build structures for war... why not make trade so beneficial, it will be something no serious player would resist? That is what I like, and I hope you will think about that point. More rules in Civ3 is not what we need... a better game is. Making things mandatory, when you could just make them better, is counterproductive.

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 on 04-10-2001 01:08 PM Why are they unbalanced? Because you can get more by a war than by trading. Okay, given that, the obvious solution is to give greater benefit for trading, to the point that it is on par with war, and people use it more frequently.

Agreed if borders are affected by cultural points than you could conceivably have so much cultural value that your borders would evelope an adjoining city? Cool...

quote: Originally posted by jglidewell on 04-10-2001 01:42 PM Agreed if borders are affected by cultural points than you could conceivably have so much cultural value that your borders would evelope an adjoining city? Cool...

I'm not sure about an entire city, but results such as siphoning off lots of production and gold, etc, could be also very beneficial... we'll see what Firaxis has planned for culture.

A city could do that, though... think of the Albanians in Macedonia now.

quote: Trade is the critical element that transforms any short-lived, isolationist military conquest-binge into a real *civilization* that stands the test of time. Without it, a culture becomes a flash in the pan of history. The game should reflect this, because it is called Civilization, not Burn-Pillage-and-Rape.

True, but it is also not called Buy-Sell-and-talk-to-my-Broker!

YOU seem to be missing the point... I'm not arguing that trade is unimportant, I just think that some of the models proposed here are outrageous and excessive because they make the game into a trade-based game. Like I said, war and trade should be balanced. Yes, the Vikings did eventually trade... but they were also sucessful in taking these resources by force. Neither option should be shortchanged in Civ3.

It is true that cultures who only fought and never traded were wiped out quickly. But the reverse is true: Civilizations that always traded and never made a serious effort at armed defense died too! The Phonecians were conquered... The Dutch were overpowered militarily, and lost their economic edge... I think that war and trade are both important, and should be added to and considered equally.

Trade does transform a culture into a Civilization. I see that. However, war and conflict also makes a Civilization stand the "test of time." Why don't you see that? The game should reflect ALL ELEMENTS of history, and to center just on trade and scoff at the rest is a huge mistake on your part.

Cyclotron7, thank you so much for quoting me, even in disagreement. Your criticism helps me see where I failed to make myself clear. Besides, I love a good debate, and I think we agree on more than we disagree.
Civility and logic will always yield to the truth, even if that truth is stated with less than perfect manners. You stated many truths, and I will yield to them as I come to them.

(1) "True, but it is also not called Buy-Sell-and-talk-to-my-Broker!"
You are absolutely correct sir. It is not, nor would I enjoy it if it were. If I wanted a strictly financial game, I could play Railroad Tycoon, or, er, Monopoly.

(2) "YOU seem to be missing the point... "
Tsk, tsk, sir. You shout with all-caps, even for one word? As a Warlord, I'm sure you know electronic etiquette better than that. Why raise your virtual voice, when you can reinforce your argument? Also, instead of assuming you know my point thoroughly enough to immediately refute me, perhaps you could have given me the benefit of the doubt by asking me to clarify the concepts you didn't warm to. I never disagreed with you specifically, only with a generalized group I call "hawks." If you took the name as an offense, then I apologize.

(3) "I'm not arguing that trade is unimportant, I just think that some of the models proposed here are outrageous and excessive because they make the game into a trade-based game. Like I said, war and trade should be balanced."
Yes, some of the models are a bit excessive. This forum can tolerate a few flights of fancy, I hope. Otherwise, where else will civers share their fondest ideas of the game of their dreams?
Now I must give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to clarify something for me. When you say "trade", are you referring to only caravans/freight trucks, or are you including the domestic trade that occurs within a city's own market? When you say "a trade-based game", are you thinking of a game in which certain resources must be gained (either from your own cities or from others' cities by trade) in order to build certain things (units and/or improvements) as has been described by Firaxis, or are you thinking of a game in which one absolutely must engage in trade in order to accomplish any goal, military or peaceful?
If you mean the former, (need trade for certain tasks) I'm afraid that is a rather balanced view of civilization and warfare. If you mean the latter (trade required for all or almost all tasks, military or peaceful), then I agree with you, it would be unbalanced. Worse, it would be boring.

(4) "Yes, the Vikings did eventually trade... but they were also sucessful in taking these resources by force."
I think I failed to make my point clearly. Actually, modern scholars are opining that the Vikings traded from almost the very beginning. Some think the raids were sometimes carried out because the town in question refused to trade with them. Sort of an early form of gunboat diplomacy without the guns. (Longship diplomacy?) Of course, you're right, also. They also sometimes attacked and plundered just because it was more fun. (Hence the infamous "eagle" they would sometimes make with a victim's lungs.)

(5) "Neither option should be shortchanged in Civ3."
If by the war option you mean conquering the world without engaging in any trade, then, well, I disagree. Realistically speaking, it can't be done. If however, you mean conquering the world and engaging in a minimum of trade along the way, that's theoretically possible, even for a game called Civilization. In the end, we just have to trust Sid and Firaxis as to the correct minimum of trade and the resulting balance.

(6) "It is true that cultures who only fought and never traded were wiped out quickly. But the reverse is true: Civilizations that always traded and never made a serious effort at armed defense died too! The Phonecians were conquered... The Dutch were overpowered militarily, and lost their economic edge... I think that war and trade are both important, and should be added to and considered equally."
Again, you're right. If I seemed to imply that trade can succeed without the occasional war, then I made my point poorly. Every nation that trades must occasionally fight to protect their trade routes. Without a strong military, a nation cannot protect its trade. Piracy thrives in the abscence of at least one powerful navy willing to protect the sea lanes for everyone. The world's current trade-flow primarily depends on the continued success of the American Navy. We are peaceful, but threaten our access to certain resources, and we get violent. (E.g., oil and the Gulf War.) It's the one thing that will drag us into war faster than anything else. Trade and war, portrayed realistically in a game, will find a natural balance because they are inseperable, interdependent. They are both cause and effect for each other.

(7) "Trade does transform a culture into a Civilization. I see that. However, war and conflict also makes a Civilization stand the "test of time." Why don't you see that?"
Actually, I do see that. Hence, my name Maccabee2, to honor the patriots who threw off the yoke of Antiochus Epiphanes, a Seleucid tyrant who tried to stamp out the Jewish faith in the last few centuries B.C. Also, even God acknowledged the necessity of war, when the Bible states that He did not allow the Israelites to drive out all the Canaanite peoples at once, specifically so that each generation could learn the art of warfare.

(8) "The game should reflect ALL ELEMENTS of history,"
You are absolutely right. This is the balance we both seek.

(9) "and to center just on trade and scoff at the rest is a huge mistake on your part."
From this last line, I know I must have stated my point poorly. I do not intend to scoff at the rest of the elements of history, and I hope I am not doing so. Rather than a game centering on trade, I desire a game that sees trade as the yin to the yang of warfare. They cannot be completely seperated for long.
I hope that Civilization III will accomodate as many different cultures as possible, both those that trade and those that are isolationist. What would history be like without the short-sighted Mongols? I'm only saying that while you can build a short-lived empire on isolationism, you can't build a true civilization on it.
Again, thank you for your disagreement. You helped me sharpen my communication skills, and let me know that I'm not alone in my passion for this game. No one at my workplace would understand my obsession with this. I find in you and the rest here, kindred spirits.