and just for you, here is our new poll #>

I voted, just to make you happy. You know, I might well have been ready to quit my moderating job anyway...it's too bad it went like this. I'm still not sure what convinced you to act the way you did, but now I'm free to pester you, so I guess we are both happy.

Markos, do YOU think SMAC was a "disaster"? That is the word you used.

Yes. I do think Yin has an axe to grind. Based on his personal experiences with Firaxis and SMAC. But I think it's to keep Firaxis from repeating past mistakes, not to decorate their company face with egg. If it was due to a meaness in Yin's spirit, he'd WAIT until Civ3 had gone gold to start using that axe. He could do a LOT more damage releasing all the game spoiling bugs in the beta that weren't fixed BEFORE the retail release, then by reminding whatever passing Firaxian of what has gone before, and the outcome of that.

But that doesn't change the fact that I'm disappointed in you, MarkG. It seems EXTREMELY judgemental and close minded to have done that to Yin. I know we do not always see eye to eye on everything, but I would like to think that you would try to be more careful in dealing with your own Apolyton family (the moderators and the other people that help keep Apolyton running) then snap demoting Yin like a common "Make Lots of Money" Spammer. That's what this sounds like. I will continue to hope that there is more to this then the little bit presented here.

I would think its better to either link to the source, or quote the whole article. And it's not uncommon netiquette in many areas to do BOTH. Link to the article and then include a plain text quote of it as well.

Markos, you KNOW that there are just some people that you have to tell everything. Heck, *I* don't see a problem with quoting a part of PM in a public thread. You had not been identified by Yin. He was just quoting a snipit. If publicly quoting or reposting PM's is forbidden, whether from you or from anyone else, then you had better put it in the FAQ. I know I'm not the only idiot who doesn't realize that private means "UNREPEATABLE/UNQUOATABLE".

You are playing at semantics. "This is something to come from someone titled troll, not moderator." Or whatever EXACT phrasing you had used... that's PURELY semantics. You had called him "like a troll", rather then "troll". Fine. If I call your mother "like a prostitute", is it truly any different then just saying she *is* a prostitute? (And no Mark, I am NOT insulting your mother. I am using it as an example of the semantics.)

Was Yin trolling? I suspect yes. I think he was trying to start a conversation about bugs... get us to post our expectations, and show how many remember the last TBS game Firaxis. I don't see anyone jumping in and using extremely strong and/or crude language about SMAC though. Maybe I've gotten used to such, so I just filter it out? You have to admit, it has generated some interesting conversation.

ShiningOne, you are shooting too low. It is possible to eliminate CODE bugs. That is just a matter of time and effort. Even in games of "complexity" such as SMAC. How many SMAC customers found code bugs within the first two hours of game play? A very high proportion. Many people didn't RECOGNIZE they were bugs initially, but most eventually understand that those sorts of things should not be happening. Others caught on quicker.

I'd like to NOT repeat that with Civ3. I'll be honest... I never ran across the unlimited nuclear missile bug in my YEARS of playing Civ. Nor in Civ2. Not until I had heard about it repeatily did I even go look for it. Not because I wanted to find it, but because I didn't think it existed. There were a few code bugs in Civ and Civ2, but nothing like how many are so easily found SMAC. And in just a few hours of play.

Repeatibility... pheuy! Civ isn't an RTS! It's a TBS game that you can SAVE at any time. That means that you CAN build up a test suite of saved games. Eventually, the QA will have to dump their saved game test suite due to saved game file format changes, but just adding in a file version will let them reuse the test case saves for a long while. It's part of the job to make sure bugs squashed in previous builds don't return. And to be able to test for bugs being squashed in new builds. Plus, with scenerio building, they should be able to get out all the general code bugs out, period, as they can rebuild build game test cases. (If they CANNOT, then they need a better scenario editor. Which will be pure "value added" to the finished product.) That would only leave resource code bugs. It's merely a question of TIME and WORKER availability (also known as time and money).

The hardware and driver problems are indeed a fact of life with the diversity of customer systems. That's a reason many development shops like the game consoles. They know precisely what the hardware will be. Since Firaxis last TBS game (SMAC) did not have any trouble with MY hardware and drivers, that's one vote "Good job with the hardware!" from me. I would hope they do at least an equally well, if not better, job with Civ3. I'm sure they will try on that at least. But most people that I KNOW who run odd hardware generally figure out it's their particular system with the problem. Only people new to computers (who got steered into the odd hardware by sales people getting rid of it) or a few new to the machine will blame their applications. But even they eventually figure it out. Hopefully, the Tech Support they contact will have patience and be courteous until then. It is really all they can do.

Imran, what galaxy are you in, exactly? Or are you JM? Most game forums aren't very "sticky". People come into a game forum, ask "How do I...?" or ask "I found a problem. Where's the patch or what's the workaround?". People do that because they are interested in the game, and their personal concerns with it. Then they leave. They may return a few more times, for more tips or more help. But their interest in the game is going to wane, or they are going to get good enough to not need any more assistance. So they don't return after that. Every once in a while, one of them might stick around, and join whatever community exists. Since that's how any single player game forum gets used, that's all there is to see. Multiplayer games have people hunting for other players. TBS MP games might have "Turn sent".

Exactly where do bugs "glue the community"? The only REAL community you have is your OT crowd. The remnants of your "forum squatters" (the people that joined up before the game was releases) with the new blood that trickled over from the game functionality forums (Strategy, Tech Support, Turn Sent, Games/Players Wanted, etc). I've seen plenty of people TALK about their bug measure scales in OT topics, but I can't recall BUG talk continuing on in OT. Unless you are mistaking how certain OT communities became rather upset and outraged over how the company they supported treated them and what it called them?

See, it's not BUGS that bind the community together. It's the (generally rare) carrots and (generally frequent) abuse that binds it together. JM provided quite a few of these instances to the Firaxis SMAC community. And did such a good job at it, that even now the majority of those communities are still together and functional. JM wasn't the only one, of course, but as he tended to interface the most with the general Firaxis public, he made the strongest impressions.

I wonder if Firaxis is planning on building a strong Civ3 community? And will it repeat how it built such a strong SMAC community? I bet they do. They really do not want to change a winning combination.

quote: Originally posted by Darkstarr on 03-06-2001 01:52 PM Interesting opinions here... Exactly where do bugs "glue the community"? The only REAL community you have is your OT crowd. The remnants of your "forum squatters" (the people that joined up before the game was releases) with the new blood that trickled over from the game functionality forums (Strategy, Tech Support, Turn Sent, Games/Players Wanted, etc). I've seen plenty of people TALK about their bug measure scales in OT topics, but I can't recall BUG talk continuing on in OT. Unless you are mistaking how certain OT communities became rather upset and outraged over how the company they supported treated them and what it called them? See, it's not BUGS that bind the community together. It's the (generally rare) carrots and (generally frequent) abuse that binds it together. JM provided quite a few of these instances to the Firaxis SMAC community. And did such a good job at it, that even now the majority of those communities are still together and functional. JM wasn't the only one, of course, but as he tended to interface the most with the general Firaxis public, he made the strongest impressions. I wonder if Firaxis is planning on building a strong Civ3 community? And will it repeat how it built such a strong SMAC community? I bet they do. They really do not want to change a winning combination. -Darkstarr

You seem to assume that JM is referring to this and similar communities, despite his explicit reference to USENET. Have you read the "zeus ate my computer" threads there? now thats an exageration to be sure, but not atypical.

Lord of the mark

Shocked and dismayed, with a bit of outrage.
I think that defines it best.

As I've said, I've got a lot of respect for you. Which is why I am shocked and dismayed. The outrage is simple... it seems to ME that you are being very quick in your judgement.

However, I do hope there is more going on in this matter then what we have been told.

The various threads touched by this "demoting" also carry other topics, so I can understand you confusion.

Yin has been subtly and sometimes obviously trying to draw attention to two areas he has always been concerned about: Public Relations and Quality. Firaxis, individually and as a whole, has in the past set it's foot wrong with their customers and fans quite a bit. Sometimes sheerly by accident, sometimes by attitude. In fact, that's why Yin became a member of the general SMAC and Civ communities. When he reported a problem, he got attitude back, not customer service. And he's been on Firaxis's back about it ever since.

Yin also has an interest in Firaxis trying to uphold it's statement to provide a high QUALITY game... as in, a game whose bugs are not fun destroyers, or if those bugs are fun destroyers, then are patched. (And not just vaporware patches.)

Now, why is that important? Because that is Yin's recurring postings.

MarkG, if you don't EMPLOY Yin, how can you expect him to not post as he is and on what he is interested? Yin is a volunteer. Like the other moderators, yes?

Volunteers are people that are helping out for their own reasons. But they are not seen as 'publicly representative' of the company or organization they are helping. So if Yin wants to go on about how SMAC was just a scam and Civ3 better be a GOOD game that lives up to Civ1 and Civ2, while a moderator, how is that any different then any OTHER poster who is not EMPLOYED (payed) by the Apolyton Business? It's not. I would think that you just need to make it clear that your moderators are volunteers... People that are trusted to keep a particular forum running, clean of serious off topic spam, and zapping particularly bad stuff (like porn). They are just Power Posters... able to do a little more then the regular poster, so they can help keep the area clean. But their VIEWS are not representative of Apolyton or the Apolyton Business. Just like all other posters who aren't paid by Apolyton are only expressing their own opinion.

The other major concern I have over this matter is that you seem to be holding you moderators responsible for breaking your rules and guidelines without having ever told them what they are. You really should draw up a document or list of those rules and guidelines and that give it to your moderators. Let's face it, we each have our own way of looking at things. What might be obvious to you, might not even occur to someone else. If it's that important, best to clear the air and get everyone on the same page.

After that, I had been commenting on the minor topics of the threads.

I hope you and Yin can settle this matter, and retain each other's respect.

anyway, in the end,
time will tell
(as a wise man said)

(it rhymes!)