I rekcon this could be a problem with the computer players. I don't think the AI routines can handle this kind of flexibility.

And you will be able to create your own custom units, now it's 3 vs 2

Civ, when it came out 10 years ago, was an astonishingly great game, and is among my top favorite five of all time. But the gaming world has moved on, and a lot of Civ's systems are now obsolete. Civ III needs to be more than a facelift of Civ II (as Civ II was of Civ). It needs to update its subsystems to take advantange of the new concepts in gaming today. If it doesn't do this, I fear it will fare poorly with the public.

The deletion of the unit workshop is, to me, the first indication that this reworking isn't going to happen. The static units are one of the biggest and most fundamental systems that needs updating. If they aren't going to fix that, what exactly is it, then, that they are improving?

A lot of people here at Apolyton disagree with me (based on the poll, which has nearly 50% agreeing with Firaxis' decision), and that's fine. Everyone's entiteled to their opinion. In the end, when the game is released, the final judge will be the sales and reviews and such. I wish them well, I really do. But at this point, I'm skeptical.

Anyway, if you want a Civ style game with a unit workshop, there is one in development, which has just entered its Alpha testing phase. I know, because I'm the lead programmer for it Check my webpage if you want to take a look. Sorry, though, we don't have Governments. Take a look at Clash of Civilizations or Guns, Germs, and Steel if governments are more important for you, for those two games have heavy government systems in them (although I am unsure if either has a unit workshop).

1) That Civ is a historical game where you can watch and herald in the history of mankind.

2) That Civ is a game that allows you to re-invent history.

I am of the latter camp.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger on 02-11-2001 09:05 AM I would like to design my own unit also. As I pointed out in another thread, it is rather silly to give every civ the same units. I rekcon this could be a problem with the computer players. I don't think the AI routines can handle this kind of flexibility. It's a rather sad day when Firaxis decided to remove the ability to build custom units.

I think some folks are getting confused about what's happening with units in general. The whole point of not having a unit workshop is that we want you to be able to build whatever kind of unit you want, and the unit workshop actually hampers your choices.

You will absolutely be able to create your own units. You will have the flexibility to do practically anything you want with them: you can give them whatever tech prereqs you want, name them whatever you want, fiddle with their abilities, and *lots* more.

Then you select what image or animation you want to represent that unit, and presto, you've got a custom unit.

The decision not to use a design workshop makes sense when you consider the limitations of that system. With that system, you're forced to use a couple of stock "chassis" or general unit types, coupled with a variety of weapons and armor that don't really look different but just have different stats.

Say you wanted to create a UFO unit for a scenario you were doing. With the unit workshop model, you'd be stuck using whatever the closest chassis in the game was, maybe a tank or an airplane of some type. You could snap some generic weapons onto it, but chances are it wouldn't fit your vision of what the UFO would look like.

If you want a more specific example, go into SMAC and try to create a catapult using the existing unit workshop components. Whatever you come up with, I'd be willing to bet it doesn't look much like a catapult.

When you're not constrained by the unit workshop model, you basically find (or create) a graphic of a UFO that you like, and attach it to the custom unit you've created, complete with your own custom technologies, attributes, prereqs, and so on.

The point of all of this is that we are NOT taking away anyone's ability to create custom units; to the contrary -- we're trying to allow for the maximum level of customization.

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 02-12-2001 05:30 PM I think some folks are getting confused about what's happening with units in general. The whole point of not having a unit workshop is that we want you to be able to build whatever kind of unit you want, and the unit workshop actually hampers your choices.

I don't see any confusion, Dan. I think everyone understands perfectly the trade off here. You have decided to decrease the "out of box" playability in favour of scenario customizability by players.

That's y'alls decision. I disagree with it, but that's just me. I have no interest in "mods". I have never built one, and I have never downloaded them. My interest is entirely how the game plays off the shelf. Therefore I am stuck with your static units, if I want to play, which quickly becomes boring. Thus, I will not buy the game. For others, mods are all important, and they applaud your decision. Different styles, I suppose Good luck with the programming.

I'm not sure of this idea myself, I'd much rather of had a workshop of some-sort (or perhaps an in-game editor like dan spoke of with a lot of extra graphics).

quote: the unit workshop actually hampers your choices.

That's true if you want to use SMAC style unitworkshop.
Unitworkshop for civ doesn't have to be like SMAC style one does it?

I want
No more prototype(sounds like labortory work to me)
No more types also(which really reduce our choices).

Unitworkshop should be aimed to make "infantry division" or "armoured brigade" rather than individual "tank" or "soldiers". Here you face problem once you try to create a single tank which is composed of AT-gun+Chassis+Engine+Turret+radio equipment)just like SMAC style.

Tanks/airplanes should be produced as they are and they should be the basic elements to form a unit such as armoured division or fighter squadron.

The only area for SMAC style might be appropriate is battleship or crusier designe and this perfectly make sense and brings fun regarding MOO/MOOII experiences if you played them before.

This actually reduced types of units you can have but it will bring great customisation of each unit which is based on how many equipments you give to that unit.

Total customisability for scenario makers is laudable but the people in favour of a unit workshop approach generally seem to be looking for customisability between nations in a game, not between scenarios. Providing enough graphics to ensure that the units don't appear completely ludicrous is certainly one of the hardest and most time consuming parts of that.

Myself, I like the news we get from Firaxis, I think they are doing a great job!! And butterflies are in my stomach(is that the right exoression? We have that expression in Norway )

And, people, please be kind to Firaxis, they are doing a good job!!!

The limit is the number of skins available to "dress" your finished units up in and some code to ensure you can't dress a footsoldier in an aeroplane skin. That limit is down to artwork and will exist whether we have fixed units or an in-game customisation tool. It does not restrict the ability for scenario makers or expansion packs to add even more skins if they need to.

Having the website release more skins from month to month would be an added attraction for Civ III, a bit like SimCity 3000 released new buildings - but only if the player can plug them straight into the main randonly generated game, not see them only in specific scenarios. My ambition would be to be playing the game three years after release with historically accurate skins for all the major nationalities in any given time period, and an AI that could choose the ones appropriate to its nationality or government style.

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 02-13-2001 09:31 AM I realise I am being aggressive about this, but I do not see how anyone can accuse a unit workshop approach that allows any feasible combination of troop type, troop weapon and troop abilities of being a limitation.

If indeed we were able to provide you with every feasible combination of troop type, troop weapon, and troop abilities, then it wouldn't be limiting at all.

But the unfortunate reality of the situation is that we can't possibly do that. Instead we're doing our best to ensure scenario builders and yes, even casual players will be able to tailor the game to their needs.

Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.

quote: since the unit workshop and the scenario editor are targeted towards two different groups. There are people who like to mess around with strange units but lacks the patience to build scenarioes from the ground up.

Well said Urban Ranger!

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 02-15-2001 12:25 AM I see this very reasonable but what makes me so sad is why Firaxis decided to sacrifice the main game in favour of scenario building.

I see the scenario tools/customization as a vital part of the "main" game, not some add-on. A lot of people love to play scenario's, and with all the great scenario builders out there it would be disasterious not to include this in Civ3. I don't think there is any sacrifice in including this in the game, as I am confident that Sid will not release a game that's not perfect

quote: I hope Firaxis open its eyes and put more effort to the main game then the need to create scenario will be reduced if not disappeared.

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 02-15-2001 12:25 AM I hope Firaxis open its eyes and put more effort to the main game then the need to create scenario will be reduced if not disappeared. I'm not saying scenario builder should not be in civIII but just expressing my opinion that the main game should be counted first.

Infact, it is really the other way around:

A stronger more user-friendly scenario-building tool really make it possible for the Firaxis-team to concentrate their efforts more on important core-elements in the main-game instead.
Thanks to the scenario-tool; they dont have to waste time on implementing SciFi- and Fantasy-stuff in the main-game (like the developers did in the badly selling & badly reviewed TOT, by the way). They can leave that stuff to addon scenario-packs instead.

Does anyone else actually understand this? Myself, I haven't the foggiest notion of what this means. So... does this mean I can choose to have paratroopers require only iron working? I can make a phalanx x2 vs. air units? Does all this go for your scenario builder, or the game itself? How could you possibly hope to balance any of this if its all up to the whims of the players? Does anybody out there get this post, and if they do, could they enlighten me!?!?