Any votes to select my Renaissance wonders? Needs cutting down to 7, I think

Btw there are 140 techs in total in this first version, divided over 7 eras:

- prehistoric (21)
- classical (21)
- dark ages (21)
- renaissance (21)
- industrial (21)
- modern (21)
- future (14)

Edit - December 16, 2000
I added Optics to the tree, which (together with Mechanics) made Physics superfluous. I put Alchemy in the middle of the giant leap from Iron Working to Metallurgy, filling the open slot. The Plough is now a prereq for The Mill.
Invention had to go to give Engineering its proper place (with Leo's as a wonder ), after which Coal Mining wriggled its way in linking Alchemy to Steam Engine.
Finally I put in some additional cross-links for the sake of game balance.

Edit - November 16, 2000
Several corrections made.
Crop Rotation has been removed, which leaves a spot open and The Plough a dead end (-> Mechanics?)
Gunpowder is no longer a prereq for Metallurgy, which allows Cannons to appear before Musketeers.

>>>>>> scroll down, I promise the table is there somehere >>>>>>

You can also found the tree here

#	Advance	Prerequisites	Leads to	Allows
P01	Foraging	none	Agriculture, Herbal Lore	exploitation of forest and jungle
P02	Hunting	none	Weaponry, Storytelling, The Canoe, Map Making	exploitation of grassland, swamp and ocean
P03	Fire	none	Pottery, Bronze Working	exploitation of tundra and glacier
P04	Stonecutting	none	Mining, Masonry	exploitation of hills and mountains
P05	Herding	none	Agriculture, Roads	exploitation of plains and desert
P06	Paganism	none	Ceremonial Burial, The Calendar	shaman
P07	Agriculture	Foraging, Herding	Irrigation, Pottery	Warehouse, villages
P08	Mining	Stonecutting	Bronze Working	mining
P09	Roads	Herding	Map Making	roads
P10	Herbal Lore	Foraging	Writing, Medicine	-
P11	Weaponry	Hunting	Archery, Horseback Riding	warriors
P12	Storytelling	Hunting	Writing	-
P13	Pottery	Fire, Agriculture	Mathematics, The Wheel	Granary, Hanging Gardens
P14	The Canoe	Hunting	Seafaring	canoe, fast travel on rivers
P15	Archery	Weaponry	Feudalism	archers, Sun Tzu's War Academy
P16	Ceremonial Burial	Paganism	Mysticism, Monarchy	Temple, Angkor Wat
P17	Bronze Working	Fire, Mining	Iron Working, Currency	phalanx, Colossus
P18	Irrigation	Agriculture	Canal Building, The Calendar	irrigation
P19	Masonry	Stonecutting	Construction, Mathematics	City Walls, Pyramids
P20	The Calendar	Paganism, Irrigation	The Council, Astronomy	Stonehenge
P21	Horseback Riding	Weaponry	Chivalry	horsemen
C01	The Council	The Calendar	Code of Laws, Currency	Barracks, Town Hall: villages can grow
C02	Map Making	Hunting, Roads	Seafaring, Trade	explorer
C03	Writing	Herbal Lore, Storytelling	Literacy	diplomat, Library, Alphabet
C04	The Wheel	Pottery	The Plough, Engineering	chariot
C05	Code of Laws	The Council	Monarchy, The Republic	Courthouse
C06	Mathematics	Pottery, Masonry	Astronomy, University	catapult
C07	Iron Working	Bronze Working	Alchemy, Bridge Building, The Plough	legion
C08	Mysticism	Ceremonial Burial	Philosophy, Mythology	Oracle
C09	Monarchy	Code of Laws, Ceremonial Burial	Feudalism, The Guild	Palace, Great Wall, Monarchy
C10	Seafaring	The Canoe, Map Making	Canal Building, Navigation	trireme, Harbor, Lighthouse
C11	Currency	Bronze Working, The Council	Construction, Trade	Marketplace
C12	Mythology	Mysticism	Literacy, Monotheism	Odyssee
C13	Philosophy	Mysticism	Arts, Medicine, Theology, University	-
C14	Canal Building	Irrigation, Seafaring	Sanitation	Grand Canal, canals
C15	Construction	Currency, Masonry	Bridge Building, Engineering, The Mill	elephant, Colosseum, Aqueduct, fortress
C16	Astronomy	The Calendar, Mathematics	Navigation, Optics	Copernicus' Observatory
C17	Medicine	Herbal Lore, Philosophy	Alchemy, Chemistry, Sanitation	Hospital
C18	Literacy	Writing, Mythology	Arts, Printing, The Republic	Great Library
C19	Bridge Building	Iron Working, Construction	Railroad	allows roads on river squares
C20	Trade	Currency, Map Making	Banking, The Guild	caravan, Marco Polo's Embassy
C21	The Republic	Code of Laws, Literacy	Banking	Republic
D01	Feudalism	Archery, Monarchy	Chivalry, Trias Politica	pikemen, Magna Carta
D02	The Plough	Iron Working, The Wheel	The Mill	increases maximum yield
D03	Alchemy	Iron Working, Medicine	Coal Mining, Gunpowder, Metallurgy	-
D04	Chivalry	Horseback Riding, Feudalism	Monotheism, Leadership	knights, Camelot
D05	Navigation	Seafaring, Astronomy	Amphibious Warfare, Magnetism	caravel, Magellan's Expedition
D06	University	Mathematics, Philosophy	Chemistry, Economics, Engineering	University
D07	The Mill	Construction, The Plough	Coal Mining, Ecology, Mechanics, Printing	Mill, Kinderdike Mills, waterworks
D08	Monotheism	Mythology, Chivalry	Fundamentalism, Theology	crusaders, Cathedral, Michelangelo's Chapel
D09	The Guild	Trade, Monarchy	Humanism, Metallurgy	School
D10	Engineering	Construction, University	Empiricism, Gunpowder, Mechanics	Leonardo's Workshop
D11	Chemistry	Medicine, University	Explosives, Atomic Theory	-
D12	Printing	Literacy, The Mill	Nationalism, Telecommunication	campaign
D13	Banking	Trade, The Republic	Colonialism, Economics	Bank
D14	Theology	Monotheism, Philosophy	Humanism, Trias Politica	Inquisition
D15	Gunpowder	Alchemy, Engineering	Explosives, Leadership	musketeers
D16	Metallurgy	Alchemy, The Guild	Electricity	cannon, Coastal Fortress
D17	Mechanics	Engineering, The Mill	Magnetism, Steam Engine, Theory of Gravity	-
D18	Leadership	Chivalry, Gunpowder	Tactics, Enlightenment	dragoons
D19	Humanism	Theology, The Guild	Biology, Enlightenment, Communism, Empiricism	Utopia
D20	Magnetism	Mechanics, Navigation	Electricity, Colonialism	galleon
D21	Coal Mining	Alchemy, The Mill	Steam Engine	-
R01	Arts	Literacy, Philosophy	Biology, Romanticism	Shakespeare's Theatre
R02	Empiricism	Engineering, Humanism	Optics, Steam Engine, Theory of Gravity	-
R03	Colonialism	Banking, Magnetism	Industrialization, Fundamentalism	ship of the line, frigate, Dutch East Indies Company
R04	Biology	Humanism, Arts	Ecology, Genetic Engineering, Psychology	-
R05	Theory of Gravity	Mechanics, Empiricism	Flight	balloon, Isaac Newton's College
R06	Optics	Astronomy, Empiricism	Quantum Physics, Tactics	-
R07	Enlightenment	Leadership, Humanism	Nationalism	Hermitage
R08	Steam Engine	Coal Mining, Empiricism	Railroad	ironclad
R09	Sanitation	Medicine, Canal Building	Refrigeration	Sewer System
R10	Explosives	Chemistry, Gunpowder	Automobile, Logistics	engineers, transform land
R11	Economics	Banking, University	The Corporation, Liberalism	Stock Exchange
R12	Tactics	Leadership, Optics	Mobile Warfare, Amphibious Warfare	riflemen, cavalry
R13	Nationalism	Enlightenment, Printing	Democracy, Espionage, Romanticism	militia, Police Station, Red Cross
R14	Trias Politica	Feudalism, Theology	Democracy	-
R15	Electricity	Magnetism, Metallurgy	Steel, Electronics, Radio, Atomic Theory	Eiffel Tower
R16	Democracy	Nationalism, Trias Politica	Human Rights	Statue of Liberty, Democracy
R17	Romanticism	Arts, Nationalism	Communism, Liberalism	Sydney Opera House
R18	Railroad	Steam Engine, Bridge Building	Industrialization	Trans-Siberian Railroad, railroad
R19	Human Rights	Democracy	Labor Union, Psychology	Abolishment of Slavery
R20	Ecology	Biology, The Mill	Recycling	airship, Greenhouse, Yellowstone National Park
R21	Atomic Theory	Chemistry, Electricity	Refining, Quantum Physics	-
I01	Industrialization	Railroad, Colonialism	The Corporation, Steel, Communism, Logistics	ironclad, Factory
I02	Liberalism	Economics, Romanticism	Socialism	Women's Suffrage, Free Market Economy
I03	Steel	Electricity, Industrialization	Hydraulics	cruiser
I04	The Corporation	Industrialization, Economics	Pharmacology, Mass Production, Refining, Electronics	freight, capitalization
I05	Psychology	Biology, Human Rights	Cybernetics, Pharmacology, Social Security	Freud's Interpretation of Dreams
I06	Communism	Industrialization, Romanticism	Socialism	United Nations, Communism
I07	Refining	Atomic Theory, The Corporation	Hydraulics, Plastics, Nuclear Fission	Power Plant
I08	Electronics	Electricity, The Corporation	Espionage, Rocketry, Computers	Hydro Plant, Hoover Dam
I09	Logistics	Industrialization, Explosives	Algorithms, Radio	sappers, transport
I10	Socialism	Communism, Liberalism	Labor Union	guerillas, Compulsory Education, Planned Economy
I11	Hydraulics	Refining, Steel	Automobile, Flight, Refrigeration, Cargo Pipeline	artillery, submarine, offshore platform
I12	Radio	Electricity, Logistics	Advanced Flight, Telecommunication	destroyer
I13	Automobile	Explosives, Hydraulics	Mass Production, Mobile Warfare	battleship, Superhighways
I14	Labor Union	Human Rights, Socialism	Robotics, Social Security, Tourism	-
I15	Flight	Hydraulics, Theory of Gravity	Advanced Flight	fighter
I16	Refrigeration	Sanitation, Hydraulics	Ceramics, Hydrogen Engine	supermarket, improve farmland
I17	Mass Production	Automobile, The Corporation	Global Marketing, The Laser, Plastics, Recycling	Mass Transit
I18	Espionage	Electronics, Nationalism	-	spy
I19	Fundamentalism	Colonialism, Monotheism	-	fanatics, Fundamentalism
I20	Algorithms	Logistics	Computers, Nuclear Fission	Turing Machine
I21	Amphibious Warfare	Navigation, Tactics	-	marines, Port Facility
M01	Telecommunication	Printing, Radio	Advanced Flight, Optical Fibre	Television Network
M02	Mobile Warfare	Tactics, Automobile	Combined Arms	armor
M03	Pharmacology	Psychology, The Corporation	Somnology	Contraception
M04	Social Security	Psychology, Labor Union	-	Welfare scheme
M05	Quantum Physics	Atomic Theory, Optics	The Laser, Unified Field Theory	-
M06	Advanced Flight	Flight, Telecommunication	Combined Arms, Rocketry, Stealth, Tourism	bomber, carrier, Airport, airbase
M07	Nuclear Fission	Algorithms, Refining	Fusion Power	Nuclear Plant, Manhattan Project
M08	Rocketry	Advanced Flight, Electronics	Space Flight	AEGIS cruiser, cruise missile, nuclear missile, SAM Missile Battery
M09	Tourism	Advanced Flight, Labor Union	Virtual Reality	Holiday Resort, Disneyworld
M10	Plastics	Mass Production, Refining	Stealth, Ceramics	SS Structural
M11	Recycling	Ecology, Mass Production	Environmentalism	Recycling Center
M12	Computers	Algorithms, Electronics	Robotics, Space Flight, Genetic Engineering	Research Lab, Internet
M13	Combined Arms	Mobile Warfare, Advanced Flight	-	helicopter, paratroopers, hovercraft
M14	The Laser	Mass Production, Quantum Physics	Optical Fibre, Superconductor, Nanotechnology	Early Warning System
M15	Robotics	Computers, Labor Union	Cybernetics, Cargo Pipeline	howitzer, Manufacturing Plant
M16	Space Flight	Rocketry, Computers	Environmentalism	Orbital Satellite, Apollo Program
M17	Stealth	Plastics, Advanced Flight	-	stealth bomber, stealth fighter
M18	Ceramics	Plastics, Refrigeration	Superconductor	SS Component
M19	Optical Fibre	The Laser, Telecommunication	Global Network	Communication Network
M20	Genetic Engineering	Biology, Computers	Regeneration	Map of the Human Gnome
M21	Cybernetics	Psychology, Robotics	Artificial Intelligence	SS Module, Biosphere 2
F01	Superconductor	Ceramics, The Laser	Fusion Power, Nanotechnology	-
F02	Environmentalism	Recycling, Space Flight	Arcologies, Hydrogen Engine	Solar Plant, Green Economy
F03	Cargo Pipeline	Hydraulics, Robotics	Arcologies	pipeline
F04	Fusion Power	Nuclear Fission, Superconductor	-	Fusion Plant
F05	Nanotechnology	The Laser, Superconductor	-	Replicator
F06	Artificial Intelligence	Cybernetics	Virtual Reality, Global Network	Wheather Control Satellite
F07	Regeneration	Genetic Engineering	-	-
F08	Arcologies	Cargo Pipeline, Environmentalism	-	Arcology
F09	Hydrogen Engine	Environmentalism, Refrigeration	-	Gaia Charter
F10	Global Network	Optical Fibre, Artificial Intelligence	Global Marketing	World Government
F11	Virtual Reality	Tourism, Artificial Intelligence	Somnology	Holodeck
F12	Unified Field Theory	Quantum Physics	-	Forcefield
F13	Global Marketing	Global Network, Mass Production	-	Auction Platform
F14	Somnology	Pharmacology, Virtual Reality	-	Otherworld Dawn

more like:

Ancient
Classical
Mid-Ages (in general, yes)
Renaissance
Industrial
Modern
Future

But I'm sure you thought about your age names well.

However, and as usual, there is an however

I can't honestly see the need for ancient/prehistoric tech's like fire, man discovered fire a -long- time ago, so I just don't think they fit.

And also, I think ships of the line really need gunpowder or metallurgy as a prestique.

quote: Originally posted by Andz83 on 11-08-2000 11:48 AM I like the eras, although I would name than different more like: Ancient Classical Mid-Ages (in general, yes) Renaissance Industrial Modern Future But I'm sure you thought about your age names well. Good work in general! I know I for myself couldn't ever find the time to do stuff like this

Actually, I would name the different ages like this, with the advances in quotes leading up to them:

Stone Age (None)
Bronze Age (Bronze Working)
Iron Age (Iron Working)
Industrial Age (Railroad)
Atomic Age (Atomic Theory)
Information Age (The Internet)
Nanotech Age (The Transporter)

Weaponry isn't needed because since man first killed an animal, he had weapons.

Also, I can't read what each tech gives you; it gets cut off on the side of the screen. I could change screen size, but it takes too long to do!

quote: Originally posted by Zero_Tolerance on 11-08-2000 06:19 PM Actually, I would name the different ages like this, with the advances in quotes leading up to them: Stone Age (None) Bronze Age (Bronze Working) Iron Age (Iron Working) Industrial Age (Railroad) Atomic Age (Atomic Theory) Information Age (The Internet) Nanotech Age (The Transporter)

I personally prefer the other ages that were proposed because: The "Bronze Age" and "Iron Age" refer to working-materials which were surely useful but civilizations without them could get pretty far (precolumbian civs). And then for you there's a big nothing between the Iron Age and the Industrial Age. So to say your ages in earth history lasted (with beginning in 4000BC:
Stone Age ~2000y.
Bronze A. ~900y.
Iron A. ~2600y.
Ind. Age ~150y.
Atomic A. ~40y.
Information Age ?

------------------
Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-08-2000 07:13 PM Do we really need fire,foraging and hunting; all societies that were civilizations truly had these before becoming civs?

That's why I named this age "pre-historic"
The idea is that in the beginning you have nomads, who cannot settle but get food/arrows/shields from the spot they are at the beginning of the turn. Depending on the starting location you will have knowledge of, say, two or three of the basic survival techs. After Agriculture
nomads can settle down as size-1 villages (the reverse is not possible). "City Council" is needed to earn the right to be called a civilization (as opposed to barbarians).

quote: Weaponry isn't needed because since man first killed an animal, he had weapons.

Well, traps, hands (fishing), branches and stones went a long way. Weaponry introduced crafted weapons such as clubs, slings and spears.

quote: Also, I can't read what each tech gives you; it gets cut off on the side of the screen. I could change screen size, but it takes too long to do! Some of these ideas are fairly good.

Thanks , maybe you can see better following this link.

quote: Originally posted by chrispie on 11-08-2000 02:20 PM I think ships of the line really need gunpowder or metallurgy as a prestique.

I have limited the prerequisites to 2 as in Civ2. You will usually have Gunpowder by then, but I think the Indians would have been just as impressed by Ships of the Line with ballistas and catapults .

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-08-2000 07:18 PM I personally prefer the other ages that were proposed because: The "Bronze Age" and "Iron Age" refer to working-materials which were surely useful but civilizations without them could get pretty far (precolumbian civs). And then for you there's a big nothing between the Iron Age and the Industrial Age. So to say your ages in earth history lasted (with beginning in 4000BC: Stone Age ~2000y. Bronze A. ~900y. Iron A. ~2600y. Ind. Age ~150y. Atomic A. ~40y. Information Age ?

Well, let me rethink this... Actually, I should have said that Steel leads to the Industrial Age. See below:

HISTORY OF IRON AND STEEL. The history of iron and steel began at least 6,000 years ago. Early mankind probably first learned to use iron that had fallen to Earth in the form of meteorites. In many meteorites iron is combined with nickel, forming a harder metal. By chipping and hammering this metal, the ancients could make crude tools and weapons. (See also Meteor and Meteorite.)
Because this useful metal came from the heavens, early human beings probably did not associate it with the iron found in the ground. It is probable that metallic iron was found in the ashes of fires that had been built on outcroppings of red iron ore, or iron oxide. The red ore was called paint rock, and fires were built against banks of ore exposed to the prevailing winds. Iron ore is found worldwide on each of the seven continents.

First Smelting and Cementation
Smelting iron from ore probably began in China and India and then spread westward to the area around the Black Sea. Iron was produced about 2500 BC by the Hittites, who lived in the region that is now Turkey and Syria.
About 1400 BC the Chalybes, a subject tribe of the Hittites, invented a cementation process to make iron stronger. The iron was hammered and heated in contact with charcoal. The carbon that was absorbed from the charcoal made the iron hard.
Knowledge of smelting and cementation gradually spread to Syria, Egypt, and Macedonia. With the fall of their empire, the Hittites scattered. They carried the knowledge of ironmaking to other peoples. Widespread use of iron for weapons and tools began about 1000 BC. This was the start of the Iron Age.
The ancient Egyptians learned to increase smelting temperature in the furnace by blowing a stream of air into the fire. They used blowpipes and bellows.
The Greek soldiers of about 500 BC used iron weapons which had been hardened by quenching the hot metal in cold water. Later, the Romans used tempered iron, which was less brittle. Tempering was done by reheating the iron after quenching.
Early literature has many references to iron. The early literature of India contains accounts that the ancient Hindus used iron. Both the Old and New Testaments mention iron. The Roman author Pliny the Elder (AD 23-79) wrote that iron was used to cleave rocks and to fashion weapons for warfare.

Early Methods of Ironmaking
All iron ores contain waste rock from which the iron must be separated. The "furnace" used by the early ironmaker was a shallow pit dug in the ground. Ore was placed in the bottom and a charcoal fire started on top. As the burning progressed, blasts of air were blown through nozzles (called tuyeres) in the sides of the furnace. This was done with bellows made from the skin of goats or other animals. The ironmaker used two bellows, one with each hand, working them alternately. The charcoal reduced the ore by taking out the oxygen, and the forced air made the fire burn hotter. When the waste rock was burned away, a black, soft mass, called sponge iron, remained. The holes in the sponge iron were left after the waste, or slag, melted out.
The iron was then broken into smaller pieces and hammered, or wrought, to beat out the remaining waste. It was then shaped into blooms, or bars. The blooms were later forged into tools and weapons. The ironmaker could also harden the metal by cementation and tempering.
By about 400 BC iron smelting was also known in the Celtic lands, such as Spain, where the Catalan iron furnace was developed. This was a small open hearth of brick or stone, which used two pairs of bellows to fan the fire.
Cast-iron objects, which must be made from molten iron, were produced in China before 200 BC. The furnaces used by early European ironmakers, however, did not produce the heat needed to melt iron for casting. The hotter furnaces were developed later.[/i]

Ironmaking in the Middle Ages
During the Middle Ages, from about AD 500 to 1500, the old methods of smelting and cementation continued. Early blacksmiths made chain mail and weapons for knights. Others made nails and tools. The famous Damascus swords were made in Syria from iron produced in India. Iron plows and horseshoes were used by AD 1000. (See also Blacksmithing.)
The Stuckofen, a furnace basically Roman in origin, was made larger and higher for better air draft. It was the forerunner of the modern blast furnace.
Between AD 1200 and 1350 waterwheels turned by fast-flowing streams came into use for ironmaking. The wheels worked the bellows that forced blasts of air into the furnace. The high temperature that developed melted the iron, which was then formed into pigs of cast iron. These blast furnaces were built larger during AD 1400-1500. Later they reached 30 feet in height and were used continuously for weeks at a time. Waterwheels also worked tilt hammers, used in the forge, and stamping mills, used to crush iron ore.

Coal and Coke Take Over as Fuel
From about AD 1500 ironmakers gave more thought to coal as a fuel to replace charcoal. Increased warfare had created a demand for iron, and wood for charcoal was scarce. Coal, however, always left impurities, such as sulfur and phosphorus, which made iron brittle. Then in 1709 Abraham Darby, of England, first used coke successfully to smelt pig iron. Coke was made by partly burning coal to remove the impurities.
Another improvement came in 1784, when Henry Cort, an English ironmaker, invented the puddling of molten pig iron. Air was stirred into the liquid by a worker who stood near the furnace door. Cort used a reverberatory furnace, in which the coal was separated from the iron so that the iron was not contaminated. After the pig iron had been converted into wrought iron, it was run through a rolling mill. Grooved rollers in this machine pressed out the remaining waste. Cort's rolling mill, which was patented in 1783, could make iron bars about 15 times faster than the old hammer method. Later, wet puddling improved the Cort method. This process produced wrought iron faster by adding iron oxide to the melted iron.
Earlier, about 1740, crucible cast steel was invented by Benjamin Huntsman, of England. A clay crucible, or cup, of iron ore was placed in a furnace. When molten, the metal was cast. It was very pure, since it did not come into contact with the fuel. Crucible steel differed from cemented iron or steel, which always remained solid during the heating. The crucible process is now obsolete.

The Steel Age Begins
From 1850 to 1865 great advances in iron and steel processing took place. The Steel Age began about 1860. Up to this time only two types of iron were made, brittle cast iron and soft wrought iron. Steel, which is both hard and strong, was made in only small quantities and was expensive.

The Bessemer Converter
Working independently, William Kelly, of the United States, and Henry Bessemer, of England, both discovered the same method for converting iron to steel. They learned that a blast of air through molten pig iron burned out most of the impurities. The carbon contained in the molten iron acted as its own fuel.
Kelly built his first converter in 1851. He received an American patent in 1857. The inventor went bankrupt the same year, however, and the method was to become known as the Bessemer process. Bessemer announced his vertical converter in 1856. In 1860 he patented a tilting converter. It could be tilted to receive molten iron from the furnace and again to pour out its load of liquid steel.
The Bessemer process was able to make many tons of steel from iron in a relatively short time, but the metal was still brittle. This was caused by the sulfur and phosphorus impurities that remained and by the oxygen from the air blast. In 1856 Robert F. Mushet, an English metallurgist, discovered that adding spiegeleisen, an iron alloy containing manganese, would remove the oxygen. About 1875 two English chemists, Sidney G. Thomas and Percy Gilchrist, removed the phosphorus and most of the sulfur by adding limestone to the converter.

The Siemens Open-Hearth Furnace
In 1861 a new type of furnace was introduced in England by two brothers, William and Frederick Siemens. It became known as the regenerative open hearth and was based on an invention made in 1856 by Frederick Siemens. The hot outgoing gases were used to preheat incoming air. The Siemens process was improved in 1864 by Pierre Emile Martin, of France. He added scrap steel to the molten iron to speed purification. This was called the Siemens-Martin process.
Hardened alloy steels came into commercial use during this period. In 1868 Mushet made a high carbon steel that gave tools longer life. In France a chromium steel alloy was produced commercially in 1877 and a nickel steel alloy in 1888. In 1882 an Englishman, Sir Robert Hadfield, hardened manganese tool steel by heating it to a high temperature and then quenching it with water.

The Electric Furnace
Electric furnaces were developed about 1879 by William Siemens, though the first electric furnace had been patented in France in 1853. High electrical costs and the poor quality of electrodes, however, resulted in little use prior to 1910. Before 1960 most electric furnaces were small and produced primarily high-cost alloy steels. Since then larger furnaces have led to economical production of carbon steels. The use of 100 percent scrap charging in electric furnaces has cut the dependence on blast furnaces and ores and has resulted in the development of small steel mills, or mini-mills, with wide geographical distribution.

Basic Oxygen Process
The high cost and unavailability of pure oxygen in large quantities made blowing air more economical until the early 1950s. In 1954 the first basic oxygen process facility was put into production in the United States, and the percentage of steel produced by this method has steadily increased as new facilities are constructed and open hearths phased out.

History in America
In 1585 Sir Walter Raleigh found iron ore on an island off what is now North Carolina. In 1622 a furnace was built at Falling Creek in the colony of Virginia. It never produced iron because Indians massacred the settlers and destroyed the furnace. The first successful ironworks in America was built in 1643 on the bank of the Saugus River near Boston. Iron was first cast there about 1644 by Joseph Jenks.
Iron plantations were areas containing iron mines, a furnace, and forests that supplied wood for charcoal fuel. During the American Revolution colonial ironmakers made cannon and other weapons.
American ironmakers made use of earlier inventions and improved them. Joseph Dixon perfected a graphite crucible in 1826-27 for melting crucible steel. Beginning in 1848, he produced high-quality cast steel at his Jersey City, N.J., plant.
In 1889 the United States took the lead in the production of iron and steel. It led until the early 1970s, when the Soviet Union took first place. Japan is just slightly behind the United States.
Until 1909 the United States made most steel in Bessemer converters. After 1909 the open-hearth process was preferred until the 1960s, when the basic oxygen process and electric furnaces rapidly increased. In the early 1980s the basic oxygen process produced about 60 percent of American steel, the electric furnace 30 percent, and the open hearth process 10 percent.

New Developments
New developments involve computer controls that improve economy and quality and lower energy consumption and pollution. Computers can control several rolling mills operating as a continuous unit. As the material passes through the various mills, the decreasing thickness is maintained automatically at the desired value, producing a more uniform final sheet. Heating equipment is computer controlled to lower the energy required.
Continuous casting, an economical and widely used process for removing solid steel from the bottom of a mold as molten steel is poured into the top, gives a high-quality product with a 40 to 50 percent reduction in energy consumption and reduced cost. The process is coupled with immediate rolling without cooling and reheating for further savings. Direct reduction produces steel powders directly from iron ore, bypassing the blast furnace.

[i]This article was reviewed and updated by George S. Baker, Professor and Chairman, Department of Materials, College of Engineering and Applied Science, University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, assisted by Fred Landis.

FURTHER RESOURCES FOR IRON AND STEEL INDUSTRY
Fitch, J.A. The Steel Workers (Univ. of Pittsburgh Press, 1989).
German Iron and Steel Institute Staff. Iron and Steel Dictionary (French and European, 1986).
Hudson, Ray and Sadler, David. The International Steel Industry (Routledge, 1989).
Ingham, J.N. The Iron Barons (Greenwood, 1978). Lewis, W.D. Iron and Steel in America (Hagley Museum, 1986).
Paskoff, Paul, ed. The Iron and Steel Industry in the Nineteenth Century (Facts on File, 1988).
ZumBrunnen, Craig and Osleeb, Jeffrey. The Soviet Iron and Steel Industry (Rowman, 1986).

---------------------------------------------------------
From Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc.

Eh, perhaps the 'barbarian' idea is good, but I still maintain my stand about hunting, and foraging because people did this before gathering in groups, it merely worked better when they were in groups as a society.

Canoes - fast river travel > actually, canoes should triple normal movement and foot/mounted travel along rivers should be normal at best. I never could figure out why walking along a riverbank with a lot of debris, erosion, tributaries, etc would speed travel compared to walking a straight line over grassland.

Some of the Primitive wonders just aren't primitive: Sun Tzu, Angkor Wat, Colossus - these are late classical or even later. I would suggest the Ziggurat for some kind of ancient wonder instead of Angkor...

Primitive ploughs were not iron... Perhaps ploughs should be a benefit of Horseback riding (domestication of horses) and the calendar, which leads me to:

The calendar is far more ancient than you are allowing for. Alexander Marshack has found convincing evidence that calendars were being used 30 to 40 thousand years ago. And the hebrew calendar ostensibly began around 3760 BC... The calendar was not used just by agricultural societies, but by everyone with eyes - especially seafarers and nomadic peoples who
needed to be in certain places at certain times of the year to meet transitory herds/food supplies and avoid seasonal storms. And that leads me to:

Time keeping - this is a must, how the designers of civ left this out is puzzling. Certainly a pre-req for advanced warfare, time keeping allowed for determining longitude (advanced navigation - and this should also be a tech in its own right) and so many other advances.

Weaving/textiles should be a tech - and advanced weaving led to the principle of computers via templates
(devices for archaic automation).

There should be 2 categories of mathematics - the first would be an archaic math for building wonders, structures, etc., with an advanced math for catapults, construction, etc.

There should be a distinction between fishing and deep sea fishing - the latter characterized the maritime archaic cultures of the N Atlantic, the megalith cultures and the Red Paint people NE America. Its one thing to toss a spear in a pond or drop a hook in a stream and another to get in a canoe-like boat capable of actual ocean travel and the whaling it allowed. In fact, when a whale is on the map, players should need
deep sea fishing to take advantage of it. And when iron appears on the map, mining should be necessary, etc.

Herbal lore should be a pre-req for the shaman - drugs were very important to shamanism. And I imagine some of them biblical "prophets" may have been hallucinating when they had some of their visions - talking bushes on fire, etc.

One last thing, disease needs to be in the game somehow. And disease should become even more of a factor upon meeting new peoples. In addition to barbs, disease should be able to wipe out cities/towns in rare cases.

quote: Do we really need fire,foraging and hunting; all societies that were civilizations truly had these before becoming civs?

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker on 11-10-2000 10:17 AM Fire was arguably the greatest tech ever invented, it needs to be in there... But like the current game allows for an automatic minimum of 3 techs, maybe fire could be a gimme...

Actually, fire should should not be included because it was discovered about 50,000 B.C., a far cry from a decent year to begin a game of Civ3 (which I strongly believe should be 8,000 B.C.--the beginning of the New Stone Age and after the last Ice Age).

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Zero

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-08-2000 07:18 PM Information Age ?

Yes, the Information Age. That is the Age that our world is currently going through. It began with the discovery of the Internet, the "Information Superhighway," the driving force of the Information Age. As a result, information is the most produced product in today's world. The discovery of the Internet in Civ3 should begin the Information Age.

Well, that's all.

quote: Originally posted by Nikolai on 11-10-2000 11:55 AM Let me see... The Internet was invented in the US to help the military in 19...63, I think? But the Information age didn't begin before much later...... Well, that's all.

Actually, the origin of the Internet stems from the Military's ARPANET. More information can be found here.

Though, you have brought up an interesting point. Perhaps an ARPANET tech could be a prerequisite for The Internet tech.

Anyway, I'd say that "Information Age" would rather be a fair substitute for "Modern Age". The increase of information streams did not start with the Internet, but with telephone and radio. In addition, I don't expect many new breakthroughs with regard to information in the coming century.

quote: Originally posted by airdrik on 11-10-2000 12:37 PM That also leaves a void in the time frame: What do you call the time period between the industrial age and the information age

Why, the atomic age, of course (with the discovery of Nuclear Fission)!

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker on 11-10-2000 10:17 AM Some of the Primitive wonders just aren't primitive: Sun Tzu, Angkor Wat, Colossus - these are late classical or even later. I would suggest the Ziggurat for some kind of ancient wonder instead of Angkor...

Remember that building a wonder takes a lot of time. Also, advances did not come at the same time in every part of the world. The Angkor Wat was built using only very primitive techniques, not even Masonry was applied.

quote: Primitive ploughs were not iron...

That's true, they started out as a wooden stick. Not really much of an advance at the time. I put it into my tree when it became a new technology, ie when wheels were added. It could as well have been given a new name in the English language.

quote: The calendar is far more ancient than you are allowing for.

Yes, but with irrigation it gained much importance. Since this cannot well be caught in a technology tree, I compromised. The link from Calendar to The Council is very important: The Council should not come too soon.

quote: Time keeping - this is a must, how the designers of civ left this out is puzzling. Certainly a pre-req for advanced warfare, ...

Well, Time-keeping is older than Fire. It gained importance ever so slowly over the ages. I've considered to put an advance as "The Clock" into my tree, but where? It got lost in the shuffle, as did other eternal techs like Sports, Advertising and Fashion. I think Time-keeping is too much part of the essence of civilization to be represented by a technological advance.

quote: Weaving/textiles should be a tech - and advanced weaving led to the principle of computers via templates

But weaving itself is very old, so that wouldn't be a good link. So are templates. The combination is simply considered to be included in the line Industrialization -> Logistics -> Algorithms -> Computers.

quote: Its one thing to toss a spear in a pond or drop a hook in a stream and another to get in a canoe-like boat capable of actual ocean travel and the whaling it allowed. In fact, when a whale is on the map, players should need deep sea fishing to take advantage of it.

In ancient times Whales were exploited by simply watching the beach - occasionally a whale would lose orientation and perish on the shore. But the Whales square in civ also stands for dolphins, walrusses, seals etc., which were hunted.

quote: Herbal lore should be a pre-req for the shaman - drugs were very important to shamanism.

Good point, I will probably make the adjustment.

quote: One last thing, disease needs to be in the game somehow. And disease should become even more of a factor upon meeting new peoples. In addition to barbs, disease should be able to wipe out cities/towns in rare cases.

Is this a plea for a disasters option, as in SimCity?

Thanks for your input, Berzerker!

quote: Originally posted by airdrik on 11-12-2000 12:14 AM Re: Cannons need to come before musketeers somehow. After all, the chinese had gunpowder in the 10th century which they used as incendiary grenades for their catapults. Later they found that Gunpowder could be used as a propellant, thus inventing true cannons, long before it was ever used in a personal musket.

In 13th century Arabia and then Europe, too, there were cannons before fire-arms. But, as in China, they were a rarity until metallurgy made them more reliable. The Arabs made the first single-person guns around 1300 (shooting arrows rather than bullets, but still).

"Musketeers" stand for all muzzle-loading fire-arms, not just the musket.

It is always hard to choose what to put first, I prefer mainstream-application as the major criterion in cases like this.

Colonialism- Not truly a technology; a way of thinking.
Empiricism- same; actually it is the same thing as well.

Romanticism- cut; 'The Sydney opera house was built in the 20th century'

Enlightenment- can stay; even though it is a way of thinking it encompasses Leonardo Da Vinci, etc; perhaps rename it "Invention"

Crop Rotation- belongs in the period before Renaissance, I believe.

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-12-2000 01:02 PM For cutting Renaissance techs: Colonialism- Not truly a technology; a way of thinking. Empiricism- same; actually it is the same thing as well.

If empiricism isn't an advance, what else is?
Philosophy isn't a tech either, it's a way of thinking first developed by the greeks...
Empiricism is so fundamental to all modern sciences we can't just ignore it. what do you mean by "actually it is the same thing as well"?

Colonialism: I agree, not a tech but either a way of thinking.
colonialism shouldn't belong to the tech list however...

quote: Romanticism- cut; 'The Sydney opera house was built in the 20th century'

huh?

quote: Enlightenment- can stay;

thank you very much.

quote: even though it is a way of thinking it encompasses Leonardo Da Vinci, etc; perhaps rename it "Invention"

quote: Crop Rotation- belongs in the period before Renaissance, I believe.

definitely true

quote: Trias Politica- Please explain this.

Legislative Power, Jurisdictive P., Executive P.

S.Kroeze wrote about Trias Politica and Empiricism here

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Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

quote: posted November 12, 2000 16:42 quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-12-2000 01:02 PM For cutting Renaissance techs: Colonialism- Not truly a technology; a way of thinking. Empiricism- same; actually it is the same thing as well. quote: If empiricism isn't an advance, what else is? Philosophy isn't a tech either, it's a way of thinking first developed by the greeks... Empiricism is so fundamental to all modern sciences we can't just ignore it. what do you mean by "actually it is the same thing as well"?

---
The reason I said that about Romanticisim is on his webpage he lists Romanticisim as the prequistice to building the Sydney Opera House.
----

quote: quote: even though it is a way of thinking it encompasses Leonardo Da Vinci, etc; perhaps rename it "Invention" quote: enlightenment and Leonardo da Vinci? aren't we mixing humanism/renaissance with the Age of Reason here?

Well, there was the Renaissance in the mideval ages and the Age of Reason in the 19th century; perhaps you should just combine them is what I suggest.

Paganism: paganism is NOT the word for the earliest religions. Paganism is the word for the religion of peasants in early Christian times and was used mostly in combination with superstition. I’d rather suggest Animism, the belief that every being and thing is inhabited by a spirit. that’s the type of religion most “primitive” cultures have. but I raise the question if “animism” hasn’t existed from the dawn of mankind on.
storytelling you can imagine any human society without storytelling? I think ceremonial burial or agriculture are better prereqs. for Writing as first writings were records of items in the warehouses of centralized agricultural societies or to tell stories about the lives of dead leaders in their graves.
The Wheelthe wheel is only really useful with the domestication of animals; therefore I suggest “domestication” as a prereq.
archery why does archery lead to feudalism? archery is simply an advance in weaponry whereas feudalism is a form of social system. i can’t see any connection between the 2 techs.
do you consider alphabet is a wonder? if so, what does it and when does it expire?
The Council; I think some forms of council have always existed as form of tribal government and I don’t see its ties to the calendar.
astronomyI’ve said it somewhere before: copernicus’ observatory should be combined with optics

Trade and Currency: as I and others have stated in the thread “2 things I always wanted to say” it’s the other way around: first trade, then currency; the Aztecs had long range trade routes without using metal-currency. Please read the thread, I’ll bump it up.

until now, I let my post until here; if you think it’s useful tell me and I go on.

PS: I have seen the tech-tree of CtP2 now and have to say: brrrrrrrrr; what do you say to: Theology ->Fascism -> Nationalism
?????????????????

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Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 11-15-2000 01:41 PM Ok, here another few suggestions to the tech.-tree, but at first I want to add that this isn’t intended to destruct your list.'

So far your comments on my ideas have always been very constructive

quote: Paganism: paganism is NOT the word for the earliest religions. Paganism is the word for the religion of peasants in early Christian times and was used mostly in combination with superstition. I’d rather suggest Animism, the belief that every being and thing is inhabited by a spirit. that’s the type of religion most “primitive” cultures have. but I raise the question if “animism” hasn’t existed from the dawn of mankind on.

Animism is a good find . Together with Herding it could lead to Shamanism, and then combine with Ceremonial Burial into (classic) Polytheism.
I'm a bit hesitant to add another religion branch, but I'll think about it. At least it now seems to me that the Shaman is not in the proper place.

The word Paganism dates from early Christianity, but Paganism has existed (independently from Animism) since barbaric times. Paganism is a generalization of Polytheism that allows me to put this branch of religion in its correct place before Ceremonial Burial.
Paganism is an important prereq for The Calendar.

quote: storytelling you can imagine any human society without storytelling? I think ceremonial burial or agriculture are better prereqs. for Writing as first writings were records of items in the warehouses of centralized agricultural societies or to tell stories about the lives of dead leaders in their graves.

While Writing came at the same time as Agriculture, there is no obvious link until after the two met. Its early roots are not in bookkeeping but in identification, hence Herbal Lore as a prereq.
Ceremonial Burial would not be a good prereq because some societies had Writing without CB. Instead, your argument tells me that Storytelling is the right choice

quote: The Wheelthe wheel is only really useful with the domestication of animals; therefore I suggest “domestication” as a prereq.[/b]

A link to Herding would be superfluous in my tree since Herding (or Domestication) leads to Agriculture, which leads to Pottery, which leads to The Wheel (the earliest use of wheels in Pottery).

quote: archery why does archery lead to feudalism?

Archery allows the defence of castles. Cross-links between the several branches of the tree (eg social and military) is essential to game balance.

quote: Do you consider alphabet is a wonder? if so, what does it and when does it expire?

The Alphabet is a Wonder because it is unique: it was invented only once (and much later than Writing). As we still use it today it won't expire. I'm still thinking about its exact function.

quote: The CouncilI think some forms of council have always existed as form of tribal government and I don’t see its ties to the calendar.

In the smaller tribal communities, as a rule everybody participated in the decision making. With agriculture, decisions had to be made about planting, harvesting, irrigating etc. The discovery of The Calendar made this possible. At the same time, the larger number of people called for a form of hierarchy.

quote: astronomyI’ve said it somewhere before: copernicus’ observatory should be combined with optics

That is a feasible idea . Optics would also be a prereq for The Laser, and may spring from the discovery of Glass (2500 BC) and Glassblowing (1 AD). I will consider this.

quote: Trade and Currency: as I and others have stated in the thread “2 things I always wanted to say” it’s the other way around: first trade, then currency; the Aztecs had long range trade routes without using metal-currency. Please read the thread, I’ll bump it up.

Well, the word trade has narrow and broad meanings. Goods were already traded between primitive tribes.
Trade in Civ, however, is intended to represent trade of goods for money (or valuables, or other neutral stuff). There could be a prereq called Barter as has been suggested, but it wouldn't add anything to the game, nor would it need to be discovered as it has always been there.

quote: I let my post until here; if you think it’s useful tell me and I go on.

Please go on

quote: PS: I have seen the tech-tree of CtP2 now and have to say: brrrrrrrrr; what do you say to: Theology ->Fascism -> Nationalism

Fascism is at best a very minor "discovery" in human civilization, but it should follow Nationalism, not lead to it. It is a form of Fundamentalism, which is already in the tree, so there is no need to put Fascism in.

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-15-2000 07:19 PM Shouldn't Nationalism be before Fascism?

Right O !!

I see that in this thread bits and parts of the discussion on advancements in the thread "tech tree 1.0" by Dark Cloud re-occur. This reply has been posted in almost the same form in that thread as a reaction to posts by Wernazuma and and Ribannah.

First a historical explanation, just to put things in perspective .

Romanticism has its roots in mid 18th century France. It’s most important "prophet" was the Genevan writer/pamfletteer Jean Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778), who f.i. wrote "Du contrat social". The one thing romanticism is about, is (personal) self-determination. In literature a new phenomen appeared the novel (french/dutch/german=roman: a novellist=romancier) in which the personal life of citizens was the main subject. A good example of a german "romantic" book is "die Leiden des jungen Werthers", from Goethe first published ± 1790. Romantic idea’s played a very important role in the american and french revolution.

The expression the rights of man comes from the name of a pamflet written by a scottish American Thomas Paine *, in favor of the french revolution. He’s also is the writer of two other pamflets of which the names have stuck in the "westernworld" collective memory, "Common Sense" and "the Age of Reason". "Common sense" was written during the American revolution, "the Age of Reason" after the french revolution. All three pamflets basically are about basing the right of self-determination of a people/nations on reason. (BTW one of the example’s for the american and french republic was the dutch republic (for whom (little known) the suisse republic was an example)) (in the NL there was widespread "patriotic" support for the american and french revolutionary cause).

After the revolt in 1789 in France a "constitutional" republic was founded. The constitution (D=Grundgesetz, NL=grondwet) was to be the foundation of the whole legislative system. This law, a legislative novelty !!, started with a summary of the rights of man. The revolutionary concept of administration and legislation was based on the Trias Politica. In the french revolutionary constitution also was stated that all citizens (mind you, in those days there wasn’t any talk about women(rights/duties)) had the duty to defend their country. This lead to the introduction of Conscription. The large "people’s-armies" lead by (a.o.) Napoleon swept across the european mainland. There’s also the brilliance of Napoleon as a strategist, but in general the opponent states just couldn’t power up against the massive french force. Britain had to heavily use pressgangs to reinforce its army and navy.
After the revolution was corrupted for (also but mainly) napoleonic dynastic reasons, Napoleon propagated the threat of the occupation of the "french fatherland" itself, and used this as a reason to maintain the armies/conscription. You can say Nationalism was born in that moment of time. "Allons enfant the leur patrie . . etc."

The revolution and its ideas about people’s-rights/legislation/administration had been exported all over the continent. In general all over Europe the french occupation at first was welcomed with great enthousiam, f.i. Jews and in the Netherlands also the catholics (a.o. tolerated religions) for the first time were given equal civilian rights. In Germany and Austria it inspired a complete generation with revolutionary/romantic (nationalistic/liberal) ideals**.
After the french were beaten, all over Europe a/the reaction (to the revolution) set in. Large parts of the legislative and administrative system based on the Trias Politica, just without a sigh were adopted by the reactionary, Conservative monarchistic/impirial governments. The reaction first and foremost meant that the revolutionary constitution (with all its people’s-rights !!!!!) was abandoned. But, all over Europe one revolutionary duty remained, . . . . . conscription. The idea must have appealed to the governments (as happened in the NL), it was a cheap way to produce massive armies. Because of the fact that the people were kept from their former (revolutionary) rights, nationalistic propaganda "We must keep France at bay" was heavily used as a way to justify conscription.
Nationalism as an ideological set of ideas about the self-determination of a nation has helped to emancipate smaller nations, like the Belgians, under Dutch rule from 1815 to 1830, the Greeks (Turkish rule up to 1836), the Serbs (Turkish rule up to 1878), the Norwegians (Swedish rule up to 1905, etc.) That’s I think the good side of Nationalism.

During the reaction Liberalism and Socialism as movements emerged.
Liberalism was a movement less radical than the french revolutionary movement but still based on the romantic ideas of self-determination. It was concerned with civilian and administrative renewal, re-installment of the constitution, but only the right to vote for those who were able to pay taxes, which meant no votes for the "mob/proles". Economical it leaned heavily on the ideas of the scottish American Adam Smith !! (1723-1790), who propagated very little state influence on trade and industrial affairs, a strong reaction towards the former british and also (!) french (Colbertism) monarchistic practice.
Socialism was based on the more radical ideas which (a.o.) Rousseau wrote about. The term Socialism also comes from late18th century France. Vote had to be given to every citizen, whether paying taxes or not. Economical it said that governments had a social duty towards their citizens, should protect them from bad working conditions.

Both liberalism and socialism were strongly oppressed by the reactionary governments. In 1830 and in 1848 in dramatic climatological conditions which caused cropfailure (potatoedisease in Ireland), famine and economical depression, this lead to "romantic" revolutions all over Europe (in 1848 in NL we didn’t have a revolution. But the King (Willem II van Oranje-Nassau) was just so scared out of his wits that he literally overnight gave in to the liberals, a new (second !) constitution was instated in 1849.).

1848 also gave birth to an even more radical movement than socialism, Communism a term being invented by Marx and Engels. In "das Kommunistische Manifest" they stated that should the working class survive and prosper, all economical means should be ruled/owned by it.

Early 20th century, right after WW-I, the process of becoming a unity-state in Italy and Germany got so frustrated that politics radicalized. And that’s when Fascism/(c.q.)National-Socialism appeared.

Underneath of all of this lies the social and economical change from the organization of the working and trading class through guilds towards industrialization and free trade.
-------------------------------------------------------

So, here I go.

Romanticism + Trias Politica > Constitution (rights of man)
Romanticism > Nationalism
Romanticism + Economics > Liberalism
Romanticism + Industrialization > Socialism
Romanticism > Conservatism (reaction)
Constitution > Conscription
Socialism > Communism
Liberalism + economics > Free trade
Nationalism + Socialism > Fascism

You can see Romanticism is pivotal in these scheme. Somehow it’s the epitome of 18th century, and the base of all the 19th & 20th century ideological developments.

Rifle men (which in CIV-II come with conscription) were a very important military advancements. It gave the "west" for the first real supreme military power over their colonies !! (muskets were just a bit to slow for that). In my "complete tech-tree" they would come with machine tools

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 11-17-2000 12:32 PM Romanticism + Trias Politica > Constitution (rights of man) Romanticism > Nationalism Romanticism + Economics > Liberalism Romanticism + Industrialization > Socialism Romanticism > Conservatism (reaction) Constitution > Conscription Socialism > Communism Liberalism + economics > Free trade Nationalism + Socialism > Fascism You can see Romanticism is pivotal in these scheme. Somehow it’s the epitome of 18th century, and the base of all the 19th & 20th century ideological developments.

Constitution, Conscription (a dead line anyway) and Facism (ditto) are too minor IMHO; Conservatism is not much of an advance at all.
Nationalism is older than Romanticism and besides, I need the cross-link with Printing.
Instead of Free Trade as an advance I have Free Market as social engineering, upon the discovery of The Corporation. I'm inclined to move that forward to Liberalism.

What I can see is a link from Romanticism to Socialism - but through Communism, thereby replacing the older Humanism as a prereq which I wanted to remove anyway, since Humanism is superfluous here (it's already on the path to Industrialization). Thanks for helping me find a solution here . I'm also thinking about rerouting Human Rights. This produces:

Romanticism + Economics -> Liberalism
Romanticism + Industrialization -> Communism
Liberalism + Communism -> Socialism
Socialism + Human Rights -> Labor Union

which would make Romanticism more pivotal (and of course it still allows the Sydney Opera House to be built ).

quote: Rival men (which in CIV-II come with conscription) were a very important military advancements. It gave the "west" for the first real supreme military power over their colonies !! (muskets were just a bit to slow for that). In my "complete tech-tree" they would come with machine tools

That would be way too late. Riflemen are still in my tree, too, but they arrive with Tactics, together with cavalry. I removed both Conscription and Machine Tools to make room for more to-the-point advances such as Nationalism and Hydraulics.

Edited the tree (see original post) ...

I think industrialization should be more embedded in the economics.
if we look on the capital flows of the early 19th century we can see that most capital went from Europe to Europe and the commerce with colonies made only some 15%.

so I think the reasons for industrialization lay much more in europe and had little to do with colonialism. I’d rather suggest rairoad+economics for in your tree you can industrialize with “banking” as the highest economy advance. IMHO without a stock market, capitalistic production and a bourgeoisie industrialization would have never happened.
a similar thing applies to communism, as for you it has romanticism and industrialization as prereqs. so there could be communism without economics!?
I’d rather say industrialization+enlightenment (no marx without hegel, st.simon et al.)

to make the tree more coherent it could be also: industrialization+liberalism = corporation then. this would give liberalism more importance then. because in your tree capitalization and free market economy are in two different branches what is, err, not understandable for me.

and for women’s suffrage: shouldn’t it be somewhen after democracy and human rights?
there fore I think it should come with labor union, and labor union should have democracy+socialism as prereqs.

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Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

quote: Originally posted by wernazuma on 12-17-2000 09:11 AM ok, like always my own 2 cents on this:

The pot is growing slowly, but surely

quote: I think industrialization should be more embedded in the economics. If we look on the capital flows of the early 19th century we can see that most capital went from Europe to Europe and the commerce with colonies made only some 15%. So I think the reasons for industrialization lay much more in europe and had little to do with colonialism. I’d rather suggest railroad+economics for in your tree you can industrialize with “banking” as the highest economy advance.

This is the same in Civ2 (Railroad + Banking -> Industrialization), and rightly so IMHO. Most countries did industrialize without a Stock Market. Shares were simply traded on a person to person basis.
Colonialism (<-Banking) is a prereq because the richesses taken from the new lands greatly increased both consumer demand and available resources.

quote: A similar thing applies to communism, as for you it has romanticism and industrialization as prereqs. so there could be communism without economics!? I’d rather say industrialization+enlightenment (no marx without hegel, st.simon et al.)

Again, just like in Civ2 where age-old Philosophy(!) is a prereq instead of Romanticism. Theories about invisible hands is one thing Communism doesn't need, it uses visible hands!! Note that Enlightenment is on the path to Romanticism (via Nationalism).

quote: To make the tree more coherent it could be also: industrialization+liberalism = corporation then. This would give liberalism more importance because in your tree capitalization and free market economy are in two different branches what is, err, not understandable for me.

There were plenty of corporations in the Soviet Union (Russia got the Communism tech from France without ever researching Liberalism ), so I think the split is correct.

quote: For women’s suffrage: shouldn’t it be somewhen after democracy and human rights? Therefore I think it should come with labor union, and labor union should have democracy+socialism as prereqs.

Not Democracy, after all women voting in a Republic was already an issue, but with Human Rights you have a point. There should be an advance Emancipation (<- Industrialization, Human Rights) for this wonder - but I have no room at the moment ! Democracy IS on the path to Labor Union btw (->Human Rights->).

Thanks for your thoughts!

Seems like you've been working for a good long while on that. I definitely like your ideas.