[1] The Mill
<- engineering
-> polders, ecology
[2] Printing
<- literacy, chemistry
-> labor union, telecommunication
[3] Socialism
<- communism
-> guerillas, labor union
[4] Liberalism
<- the corporation
-> multinational, human rights
[5] Human Rights
<- labor union, liberalism
-> activists, "Abolishment of Slavery", ecology
[6] Ecology
<- recycling, the mill,
-> windmill, environmentalism
[7] Telecommunication
<- printing, electronics
-> television network, rocketry
[8] Artificial Intelligence
<- computers, psychology
-> space colonies
[9] Pharmaceutics
<- medicine, chemistry
-> "Contraception", genetic engineering
[10] Psychology
<- theology, tactics
-> children's creche, artificial intelligence

Tell me if you think something should be replaced!

Just a small thing, though -

quote: "Abolishment of Slavery"

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 09-13-2000 09:55 PM Could you please expand on some of your ideas? and describe what exactly they will do.

Sure !

Polders = allows settlers to change water into (grass)land and vice versa

Guerillas = units, like the Partisans in Civ2 (the Guerilla Warfare tech can be dumped, the line communism-gw-labor union in Civ2 is all wrong)

Multinational = city improvement, increases the yield of trade routes at both ends

Activists = units, uncontrolled by the player but with flag, will randomly occupy squares within the radius of foreign cities without causing an international incident, if that civ has not yet discovered human rights. After the discovery of ecology, activists will also occupy and possibly pillage squares near cities (even your own ) that generate pollution

Abolishment of Slavery = wonder, makes all extra-unhappy citizens in the world merely unhappy and stops Slavery - see elsewhere - for everybody

Windmill = city improvement, gives a set amount of shields that do not generate pollution

Television Network = city improvement, gives some happy citizens (the effect of your collossea and cathedrals - and yes, also Mike's - should run out upon the discovery of telecommunication)

Space Colonies = small colonies within the solar system (city map only, terrain improvements already in place but no farmland), founded by settlers, cities no larger than size 8 but with a double yield

Contraception = wonder, changes the effect of "We Love" days from growth into an extra arrow for every civ that has discovered Pharmaceutics

Children's Creche = city improvement (SMAC), reduces the number of colums to fill for city growth

Socialism seems much more important than Nationalism to me (Nationalist gov? What is that?), same with Psychology vs yet another Economy tech (which should be Econometrics, rather).

But try and make a case!

1.Barterer-
When he goes into an allied city, he can buy units for half the
price that they would cost to build.
Cost: 30
(Bartering)
------
Alphabet
*-School (C)

2.School-
Increased Science by 25% cumulative with university but NOT
Library.
(Alphabet)

3.University-
Increased Science by 50%, cumulative with school but NOT
Library.
(University)

4.Library-
Increased Science by 50%, cumulative with nothing.
(Writing)
-----
*Wood Carving
*-Canoe (U)
(Alphabet)

5.Canoe-
The canoe can traverse rivers and carry up to 2 units. 1-1-1
Cost: 20
(Wood Carving)
------
I have a list of more of these, if anyone is interested. I was working on a comprehensive list of things to include in Civ and was only 1/8th finished when I gave it up for a while.

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius on 09-15-2000 10:10 AM I agree with Ultrasonix, we need more than 10 new techs. I hope there will be minor techs in Civ3 (civs could specialize themselves in major techs researching minor techs = multiple tech tree paths). Using multiple tech tree paths would change of course the entire tech trading system.

I am certainly not opposed to more than 10 new techs, and multiple paths is a way to make room, better than how it was done in Master of Orion.

But the trouble is, there are so many choices, even for mutiple paths! I have a hundred on my own grosslist already, ranging from Paganism and The Needle to Dreamscape and Regeneration. We just can't include them all.

So I think it would be a great help for Firaxis if we could agree on the most important ones, those that can't be left out.

I'd say "Liberalism" and "Human Rights" are older than "Labor Union" and "Corporation".
So my suggestion for the tech-path would be rather:
Economy+Printing Press -> Liberalism
Enlightenment+Liberalism -> Human Rights

More Ideas:
-----
*Advanced Hull Making
*-Longship (U)
(Ship Building)

12.Longship
2-2-2 can carry 1 unit.
Cost: 40
(Advanced Hull Making)
-----
*Police State
*-Police (U)
*-Police Station (C)
*-Police State (Government)
(Code of Laws, Communism)

*The Republic
-Republic (Government)
(Mathematics, University)

Navigation
-Caravel (U)
-Magellans Expedition (W)
*-Fishing Boat (U)
*-Fishing Nets (T)
(Seafaring)

8.Police-
Police have a rating of 1-1-1, but they make 2 unhappy people content
or 1 content person happy in a city. Limit of two police per city.
Cost: 70
(Police State)

9.Police Station-
All previous benefits remain in addition to; police can now make
2 content people happy in a city.
(Police State)

10.Police State Government-
Very restrictive, all units up to 4 are supported free.
Maximum rates: 60%; No Luxuries Allowed or Entertainers.
Police make 3 unhappy people content, limit increased to three.
(Police State)

quote: Originally posted by Evil Capitalist on 09-15-2000 09:32 AM Another one that is needed- Classical music. This could give access to things like JS Bach's Cathedral, rather than theology. Also 'Opera house' (This is a very important 19th century improvement that could decline with the advent of television).

The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music.

If a case could be made for a music wonder in civ III,
I think it would have to be "Woodstock".

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 09-16-2000 03:53 AM Definetly need Fascism! I don't know what leads to it (maybe automobile and Liberalism - it did blossom from anti-liberalism) and what comes off of it.

I never saw Fascism described as blossom before !
Anyway, it comes from despair, and brings nothing but trouble. Compared to Socialism and Liberalism it has little content - basically it is just a form of dictatorship - and has played only a minor part in the history of human civilization. It is represented in Civ II by the toppling of a democratic government.

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-16-2000 10:18 AM The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music.

How about every happy citizen (Who we'll just assume is a rich, middle class citizen with cultured tendencies) produces 1 gold/turn. In fact we could extend the concept and make the stadium produce e.g. 1 gold per content citizen.

So far nobody has seriously challenged my top 10!
Does that mean you all agree?

Finally! Thank you, Wernazuma. Cool list, but some comments.

1. Mechanics
> simply replaces Invention, I don't like that name.

Good point, there has always been invention after all. A replacement shouldn't count as a slot though, so you can have another pick

3. Mercantilism
I'm hesitant about adding another economics tech, I don't think this gives much extra over Economics and The Corporation.

4. Nationalism
This is a good one, almost made my own cut but I could not drop Socialism or Liberalism. Maybe it could simply replace Conscription, which is not much of an "advance" IMHO.

5. Bureaucracy
Hehe, this is certainly no advance, but going backwards! It is represented in Civ II by Corruption.

6. Modern Science
This needs some explanation.

8. Electronic Warfare
Hmm, in my a possible alternative to Stealth, which has been much overrated. Can't see how it LEADS to Stealth. A unit for this tech: the Apache Helicopter.
One drawback though, an overlap with Rocketry.

9. Leisure Industry
> leads to: nothing

Great insight
Problem is, there has been leisure industry since the dawn of human civilization, so I don't see where it would fit in.

10. Mass Media
Alternative to my "Telecommunication", which I prefer since it's broader and easier to place in the tech tree.

Thanks again! I'm working on a complete tech tree now and your ideas have certainly helped.

*Bartering
I see no difference with Trade.

*School
A City Improvement, rather than a tech. To go with Philosophy.

*Wood Carving
This is supposed to be known by all beginning civs

>Well then, I think at min the new game should include 10 new techs and at max it should contain 25 new techs.

That is why you made no challenge! We're talking about the Top 10 here, there could me more than 10 new ones in total.

*Advanced Hull Making
Can't see this as a major advance. Where in the tree?

*Police State
A form of (improved?) dictatorship. Could be a government type to go with Nationalism.

*-Fishing Boat (U)
*-Fishing Nets (T)
Supposed to be known at the start. Comes way before citybuilding!!

quote: Originally posted by Stuff2 on 09-30-2000 09:46 AM Actually, during the 19 th century "classical music" was the music for the citizens. If you lived in a fairly big city at that time you where probably listening to classical music ...

How?

It comes from Ship Building (Advanced Caravel) which comes from: Navigation (Caravel and Magellans Expedition) and Map Making (Trieme and Lighthouse)

I once worked out a new tech chart until the year 2100 with improvements such as Laser Mounted Warfare and Genetic Discoveries.

I can list them if you like...

quote: I once worked out a new tech chart until the year 2100 with improvements such as Laser Mounted Warfare and Genetic Discoveries. I can list them if you like...

Sure! Why not? Do you think it's worthy to look at "The List v.2", too?

Please, tell us also where do you take your "future tech" suggestion (I mean: to define future dicoveries, do you use Science Fiction concept, read about real research on scientific magazine, let free your imagination...).

Anyone is acceptable, of course, but some approach are more realistic than other, and I think is fair to take this in account, too.

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 10-02-2000 09:43 PM I once worked out a new tech chart until the year 2100 with improvements such as Laser Mounted Warfare and Genetic Discoveries. I can list them if you like...

Sure! Better make it another thread though.

I guess I'll post them in another thread...

I'll add my favourite 'advances' to be included in CivIII.

I. Plant domestication
Its importance is probably obvious to everyone. Some critics might point out that it is older than 4000BC. They are right of course! My reply would be that it is not written in stone that a Civgame starts in 4000BC. I still hope that more prehistory will be included. And all the same the majority of mankind didn't master Plant domestication in 4000BC.
By the way, several advances in the current TechTree were used before 4000BC: Pottery, Granaries, Archery, City Walls, Masonry, Ceremonial Burial, Temples, Markets, Trade(yes, long-distance(!)trade), Polytheism, Seafaring.
Roadbuilding was on the other hand barely applied!

II. Animal domestication

III. The Plough
'Sometime between 6000 and 3000BC the plough and the hoe-stick were developed. The prehistoric and ancient oriental ploughshares were made of wood and could not be worked in other than so-called 'light soils'. But soon the technique of working metals was discovered. By 3000BC iron ores were occasionally smelted in Mesopotamia. Iron objects dated 3000BC have been found in Sumerian Ur and in Middle Egypt. After 1400BC iron was smelted and worked on a large scale. The adoption and the diffusion of the iron ploughshares and other new metallic agricultural tools opened 'heavy soils' to cultivation. The Greek and Italic civilizations would not have been possible without these developments.'
(source: C.M.Cipolla;'The Economic History of World Population',1962)

CivII seems to suggest that irrigation works on all soils and in all climates. Nothing could be farther from the truth!

IV. The Sail
'Sailing boats appeared very early, and were soon adopted over much of the world. The first known indication of their existence is preserved in the British Museum. On two pre-dynastic vases of Amratian style from Middle Egypt we find depicted something that is undoubtedly a sailing boat. The date of the vases is probably about 3500BC. There is also plenty of evidence to indicate that sailing boats were plying the Eastern Mediterranean by 3000BC.'
(source: C.M.Cipolla;'The Economic History of World Population',1962)

Map Making was of course a very important development. But linking it to the trireme is in my opinion rather artificial.

V. The Mill
Watermills were known in the West in the first century BC but for at least two centuries their number remained small. According to some authors it was only when slave labour grew scarce that the water-mill was adopted throughout Western Europe. The explanation may be too simplistic but it is a fact that the breakthrough occurred in the Middle Ages. In medieval Europe water-mills were no longer used only for grinding grains and pressing olives but were applied to other productive activities such as the production of cloth, beer, paper, and iron, as well as 'to turn various machines to make copper pots and weapons of war, to pound herbs, to spin silk, polish arms and saw planks.' The use of water-mills in cloth-production accounted for an extraordinary growth in textile manufacturing in thirteenth-century England. By the end of the eighteenth century in Europe there were more than half a million water-mills, and a large number of them had more than one wheel. In China the appearance of the water-mill was more or less contemporary to its appearance in the West. Paradoxically enough, however, the first mention of water-mills in China is not in connection with the turning of millstones but with the complicated job of blowing metallurgical bellows.

Windmills appeared in Persia in the seventh century AD. The Persian windmill had a vertical axle. The Northern Chinese must have been acquainted with the Persian windmill during the thirteenth century. In Europe windmills appeared towards the end of the twelfth century. A persistent tradition has maintained that the idea of windmills was brought back by the first crusaders. The Western windmill, with the axle horizontal, was, however, from the beginning so different from the Persian as to make it almost a new invention. It spread rapidly from Normandy to France, England, the Low Countries, Northern Germany and the Baltic area, while in Central and Eastern Europe it appeared only after the fifteenth century.'
(source: C.M.Cipolla;'The Economic History of World Population',1962)

VI. Printing

VII. Empiricism
'First, science, purely as a form of thought, is one of the supreme achievements of the human mind, and to have a humanistic understanding of man's powers one must sense the importance of science, as of philosophy, literature, or the arts. Second, science has increasingly affected practical affairs, entering into the health, wealth, and happiness of humankind. It has changed the size of populations and the use of raw materials, revolutionized methods of production, transport, business, and war, and so helped to relieve some human problems while aggravating others. This is especially true of modern civilization since the seventeenth century. Third, in the modern world ideas have had a way of passing over from science into other domains of thought. Many people today, for example, in their notions of themselves, their neighbours, or the meaning of life, are influenced by ideas which they believe to be those of Freud or Einstein- they talk of repressions or relativity without necessarily knowing much about them. Ideas derived from biology and from Darwin- such as evolution and the struggle for existence- have likewise spread far and wide. Similarly the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century had repercussions far beyond the realm of pure science. It changed ideas of religion and of God and man. And it helped to spread certain very deep-seated beliefs, such as that the physical universe in which man finds himself is essentially orderly and harmonious, that the human reason is capable of understanding and dealing with it, and that man can conduct his own affairs by methods of peaceable exchange of ideas and rational agreements.

The scientific view became characteristic of European society about the middle of the seventeenth century. Two men stand out as prophets of a world reconstructed by science. One was the Englishman Francis Bacon(1561-1626), the other the Frenchman René Descartes(1596-1650). Both published their most influential books between 1620 and 1640. Both addressed themselves to the problem of knowledge. Both asked themselves how it was possible for human beings to know anything with certainty or to have a reliable, truthful, and usable knowledge of the world of nature. Both shared in the doubts of their day. They branded virtually all beliefs of preceding generations (outside religion) as worthless. Both ridiculed the tendency to put faith in ancient books, to cite the writings of Aristotle or others, on questions having to do with the workings of nature. Both attacked earlier methods of seeking knowledge; they rejected the methods of the "schoolmen" or "scholastics", the thinkers in the academic tradition of the universities founded in the Middle Ages. On the whole, medieval philosophy had been rationalistic and deductive. That is, its characteristic procedure was to start with definitons and general propositions and then discover what further knowledge could be logically deduced from the definitions thus accepted. Or it proceeded by affirming the nature of an object to be such-and-such(e.g., that "man is a political animal") and then describing how objects of such a nature do or should behave. These methods, which owed much to Aristotle and other ancient codifiers of human thought, had generally ceased to be fruitful in discovery of knowledge of nature. Bacon and Descartes held that the medieval (or Aristotelian) methods were backward. They held that truth is not something that we postulate at the beginning and then explore in all its ramifications, but that it is something which we find at the end, after a long process of investigaton, experiment, or intermediate thought.

Francis Bacon planned a great work in many volumes, to be known as the Instauratio Magna or "Great Renewal", calling for a complete new start in science and civilization. He completed only two parts. One, published in 1620, was the Novum Organum or new method of acquiring knowledge. Here he insisted on inductive method. In the inductive method we proceeed from the particular to the general, from the concrete to the abstract. Bacon advised men to put aside all traditional ideas, to rid themselves of prejudices and preconceptions, to look at the world with fresh eyes, to observe and study the innumerable things that are actually perceived by the senses. Men before Bacon used the inductive method, but he formalized it as a method and became a leading philosopher of empiricism. This philosophy, the founding of knowledge on observation and experience, has always proved a useful safeguard against fitting facts into preconceived patterns. It demands that we let the patterns of our thought be shaped by actual facts as we observe them.'
(source: R.R.Palmer/J.Colton;'A History of the Modern World',1978)

So without this empiricism and its inductive method Newton's Theory of Gravity, which actually did redefine the universe, wouldn't have been possible.

VIII. Trias Politica
'In his great work, The Spirit of Laws, published in 1748, Montesquieu developed two principal ideas. One was that forms of government varied according to climate and circumstances, for example, that despotism was suited only to large empires in hot climates, and that democracy would work only in small city-states. His other great doctrine, aimed against royal absolutism in France (which he called "despotism"), was the separation and balance of powers. In France he believed that power should be divided between the king and a great many "intermediate bodies"- parliaments, provincial estates, organized nobility, chartered towns, and even the church. It was natural for him, a judge in parliament, a provincial and a nobleman, to favour the first three and reasonable for him to recognize the position of the bourgeoisie of the towns; as for the church, he observed that, while he took no stock in its teachings, he thought it useful as an offset to undue centralization of government. He greatly admired the English constitution as he understood it, believing that England carried over, more succesfully than any other country, the feudal liberties of the early Middle Ages. He thought that in England the necessary seperation and balance of powers was obtained by an ingenious mixture of monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy (king, lords, and commons), and by a separation of the functions of the executive, legislature, and judiciary. This doctrine had a wide influence and was well known to the Americans who in 1787 wrote the Constitution of the United States. Montesquieu's own philosophe friends thought him too conservative and even tried to dissuade him from publishing his ideas.'
(source: R.R.Palmer/J.Colton;'A History of the Modern World',1978)

Another important theory contributing to this range of thought is of course the constitutionalism of John Locke(1632-1704) and the congenial school of Natural Law.

IX. Nationalism

X. The Arts
I think it rather shameless how CivII disregards the importance of literature, the visual arts and music. It is true that much of the world's great art was only produced for a small elite; there are some significant exceptions though: the epic poetry of Homer, the medieval cathedrals, the Shakespearian theatre, plainsong, the operas of Verdi, which is a far from exhaustive list. I am of firm opinion that human Art is one of the few undeniable positive contributions of humanity to the universe and defines (with religion) a civilization. I do not have any doubt that when in 3000AD there is life on this planet (or on some other planet) that is both human and civilized, some people will read T'ang poetry, Dante or the Mahâbhârata, while others will admire the sculpture of Polykleitos or the paintings of Titian or in the Lascaux cave (possibly a copy), and others will listen to Mozart's 'don Giovanni' or Bach's 'Matthäus Passion', while the ballet 'the Rites of Spring' by Strawinsky will still be danced, perhaps in another choreography. Life without some truly great art wouldn't be worth living!
Time will be a severe, but fair judge. It will show no pity with commercial rubbish.

Mass Communication should definitely be included (full disclosure: I'm a mass comm professor), and should do the following:
1) decreases unhappiness every time you take a city in war or sign a peace treaty; increases unhappiness every time an AI or Barb takes a city of yours.
2) allow you to build a wonder called "Hollywood"; with this wonder, every entertainer in the city that builds it counts as an entertainer in every city in your empire.

Mass Communication (couples with mass production) should lead to a development I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Consumer Society. This allows for the building of malls, which would either increase trade or improve happiness -- I can't decide which (even though they have the opposite effect, on both counts, with me).

Finally, University + Democracy should = Public Education, which should allow for the building of school systems in each city, providing some kind of improvement of science or trade (or, better still, both, which would be both historically accurate and ideologically pleasing ). Public Education should also allow the building of a wonder, Universal Public Education, which would act as a school system in every city.

quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze on 10-04-2000 09:26 PM I'll add my favourite 'advances' to be included in CivIII.

Great contribution, especially the background info!
I like the idea of adding some prehistory. Could be an option, perhaps. Relevant techs that come to mind are for instance: fire, stonecutting, herding, storytelling, the needle, the canoe.

I. Plant domestication
Cultivation, rather, as a tech that marks progress. Don't quite see yet where to put this in the tech tree and what it could add to the game.

II. Animal domestication
Horseback Riding is already in the tree. Other animals
have contributed much less (mainly hunting and entertainment).

III. The Plough
Good one, but not quite in the same category as The Wheel. Many inventions such as this one are implicitly included in Engineering and Invention - because otherwise the list would be endless. The Plough is certainly not minor though.

IV. The Sail
Between Map Making and Seafaring, I see little room.
Unless, as you seem to suggest, Map Making would get a new place (to include land mapping?). However, without Map Making the impact of The Sail is much smaller than, say, The Canoe. What would it allow, in the game?

VII. Empiricism
Another good one . Linking University + Invention to Theory of Gravity, I think. Or maybe this way: replacing Theory of Gravity as a tech, with Isaac Newton's Theory of Gravity as a wonder.

VIII. Trias Politica
Included in Democracy.

IX. Nationalism
See elsewhere in this thread.

X. The Arts
Are assumed to be known at the dawn of civilization. Represented in Civ II by entertainers and several Wonders; elsewhere I have suggested another art -related wonder named "Woodstock". It is weird, however, that in Civ II Shakespeare's Theatre is made available by Medicine.

>One last remark: Socialism is at least fifty years older than Communism.

There have been communes through the ages, often based on religion, long before the term Communism was introduced. The question, as always, is: when did the tech become a genuine part of human civilization?

quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze on 10-04-2000 09:26 PM III. The Plough .... Sometime between 6000 and 3000BC the plough and the hoe-stick were developed. The prehistoric and ancient oriental ploughshares were made of wood and could not be worked in other than so-called 'light soils'. But soon the technique of working metals was discovered. By 3000BC iron ores were occasionally smelted in Mesopotamia. Iron objects dated 3000BC have been found in Sumerian Ur and in Middle Egypt. .... V. The Mill .... The explanation may be too simplistic but it is a fact that the breakthrough occurred in the Middle Ages. In medieval Europe water-mills were no longer used only for grinding grains and pressing olives but were applied to other .... VII. Empiricism .... First, science, purely as a form of thought, is one of the supreme achievements of the human mind, and to have a humanistic understanding of man's powers one must sense the importance of science .... [This message has been edited by S. Kroeze (edited October 04, 2000).]

Good comment !!!
I hope my addition will have the same quality.

1 III the plough
There are few agricultural advances in CIV-II. It would be great if there were more in CIV-III. In the book I have on agricultural history -from the dutch historian Slicher van Bath- the plough is also mentioned as a major breakthrough in agricultural development.
Another fine new CIV-III agricultural advancement would be
THE THREE-FIELDSYSTEM (in dutch "drieslagstelsel").
It is not exactly known in which part of the world this system is developed but it emerged in europa from about 800 a.d., the Carolingian* time (*Charlemagne). Before that time all over the world (f.i. in the roman-empire) the two-field system was commonly used.
Slicher van Bath also tells me that about the same time the 3-fieldsystem was introduced, the blade of the simple plough was drastically improved. It is calculated that by using this system and the new plough, foodproduction in comparison to the two-fieldsystem had increased about 50% around 1000 a.d in western Europe. From that time on the agricultural world was able to produce the surplus that was needed to let the european cities/city-populations grow and flourish.
I don't like the idea of "advanced ...." sciences/advancements. So let's just call it as I named above and as it is known in the historical world.

2) V the mill
I haven't been able to find anywhere a qoute on the time of the development of
the COGWHEEL
It is clear that in Roman time (and before that) there were mills. It is also clear that because of the adoption of the cogwheel in the construction of mills the versatility and the production of mills increased rapidly. Before that time mills usely had one (horizontal) axle, now it was possible to transfer the movement/power from a horizontal axle to a vertical axle.
Cogwheels in small "miniaturized" (after ~~ metallurgy!!), made the development of refined measuring instruments possible. Which combined with empiricism staggered scientific production.

3) Empiricism + Trias Politica
I would like to see the introduction of the advancement
HUMANISM.
Humanism is a collective term which may stand for all the movements in Europe from the mid 14th century on to the middle of the mid 16th century which loosened the people from the grip of dogmatism (~theology) of the church. The "humanist spirit" made the way free for: the italian renaissance; the explosive growth of science (after all, we discovered that Jerusalem wasn't the centre of the earth and the earth wasn't the centre of the universe, Galileo was initially banned for his work !!...); and it also made the way free for the bible-translations (power(over believe) to the people!!).

In CIV-II we have fundamentalism, Humanism is the opposite of that. In CIV-II the development of religion ends with theology and fundamentalism, with humanism you can link it up with the development of the exact sciences and the development of philosophy.
It's prereq. (according to CIV-II terms) should be theology. It would be the CIV-III-equevalent of CTP's classical education, though more than that !!

Humanism in itself will have no effect on happiness / food / shields or trade production. It should have a "25%+" effect on science-development.
It should be a pivotal basic need, a "conditio sine qua non" for the development of the subsequent advancements like HUMAN RIGHTS ( I like that one !!, (with bi-prereq. PRINTING PRESS ( I like that one too).
EMPIRICISM (I keep , because it's another one I like) (and also with bi-prereq. printing press) in my opinion should be one of the offsprings of humanism. Without empiricism it shouldn't be able to develop sciences like theory of gravity or chemistry (these two I almost every time get from the goody-boxes).
HUMAN RIGHTS would the CIV-III-equevalent of CTP's Age of Reason, the term in itself is more concrete than AoR.. The philosophy and ideal of human rights doesn't come from a classical education, but from a basic idea of human freedom and dignity.
TRIAS POLITICA should appear after human rights.
DEMOCRACY in this line of thinking should derive from human rights with !!! bi-prereq. trias politica.

Another offspring of humanism could be the new advancement of
LAW OF WAR
(with bi-prereq.leadership) which will have to enable the surrendering / capturing / withdrawl of troops (usually in CIV-II you just massacre enemy-troops) (the one exciting thing left to do in a tedious end-game!!), and in the end game POW's.

OOPS.
Now get your pencils and start drawing that tech.tree (nice term, as we say in dutch, it lies smoothly in the mouth "ligt lekker in de mond")

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 10-05-2000 08:18 AM Great thread.

> Mass Communication should definitely be included
Telecommunication and TV Networks are supposed to cover this.

> ... allow you to build a wonder called "Hollywood"
Too US-centered IMHO. By far the most movies are produced in India. But places should not be Wonders anyway.

> I'm surprised no one has mentioned: Consumer Society. This allows for the building of malls ...
Hmmm, good one . Not of Top 10 essence, but close.

>University + Democracy should = Public Education ...
I'd prefer an early advance called Teaching allowing Schools as a city improvement. Universities came later. Maybe Compulsory Education could be the wonder you are looking for (school in every city), allowed by ... Humanism?

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 10-05-2000 01:29 PM

THE THREE-FIELDSYSTEM
Since this came together with the (improved) Plough, although just as important there would be no room in the tech tree. Good to mention it, however.

the COGWHEEL
Great find! Should indeed be a prereq for The Mill but is of seperate importance because it also leads to The Clock (Wonder: Big Ben?), a prereq to Industrialization (!).
Hmmm, this is getting more involved by the minute .
Maybe we could have the Cogwheel as tech and the Mill as city improvement (and later the Wind Turbine as power plant). Or maybe we should drop the generalization "Engineering" altogether to make room for Plough, Cogwheel and Mill?

HUMANISM
Had this on my list but didn't quite make my top 10.
I never liked the way the philosophy branch ended either. Above I suggested Compulsory Education as a wonder to go with Humanism, counting as a School in every city,

LAW OF WAR
Doesn't convince me as an advance. I was thinking about a Wonder called "The Geneva Convention" instead. To go with Human Rights as an alternative to The Abolishment of Slavery.

1. Agricultre - Leads to (Pottery)
2. Alien Technology - Pre. is (Cybernetics & Space Flight)
3. Ballooning - Pre. is (Theory of Gravity & Steam Engine), Leads to (Flight), Allows for (Airships)
4. Biology - Pre. is (Philosphy), Leads to (Medicine)
5. Cybernetics - Pre. is (Genetic Engineering & Robotics)
6. Diplomacy - Pre. is (Writing), Leads to (Literacy)

7. Hover Technology - Pre. is (Magnetism & Electricity), Allows for (Hovercraft)
8. Hygiene - Pre. is (Literacy & Trade), Leads to (Sanitation)
9. Mythology - Pre. is (Mysticism), Leads to (Polytheism)
10. Plumbing - Pre. is (Construction & Pottery), Allows for (Aquaduct)

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Apolyton Empress

"The entire sum of existence is the magic of being needed by just one person" -- Vi Putnam