Y'all Really think Sun Tzu's War Acadamy is better than West Point? (or VMI, Annapolis)

------------------
"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you"

1.)West Point: A friendly reminder to US-guys, your Marines get beaten every year at the worldchampionship for special forces by Chinese and Austrian and several other nations. US have supreme warfare-technology but the training is nothing better than anywhere else, so: NO West Point (I'm sure the Chinese have something like West Point too, we only don't know its name)

2.)Chaco Canyon: I'm sure the Anasazi were good at irrigation but so where many other peoples (Egyptians?!?). And of course Chaco is a settlement again and I repeat: NO settlements as wonders

3.)Morill Act: Never heard about that one. I could say "The Gloeckl Reforms" probably the austrian correspondent to the Morill Act. You can imagine your imaginative parlament setting up the Morill Act (and I imagine the Gloeckl-reforms)when you decide to build more Universities in your cities but it's definitely no wonder.

The US have enough real wonders (SoL, HD, maybe Mt.Rushmore, WTC and others), we shouldn't overamericanize the game

And that is they are tangible and are companies. However they rely more on other nations than their own for their significance.

Perhaps the VOC can be an option of the UN to allow free trade and such. Whoever has the most caravans would get a movement bonus through enemy territory or something.

-Chaco Canyon, West Point, and the Other One. Thank's for you ideas but I do not believe these should be in Civ III as being either too narrow or too insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 09-29-2000 10:38 PM Interesting history about the VOC, however there is a reason why I do not believe the East India Company or the VOC is suitable for Civ III. And that is they are tangible and are companies. However they rely more on other nations than their own for their significance.

I don't see why this would be an argument against the VOC. Many Civ 2 wonders rely on other nations, often more so than the VOC: the Great Library, the Great Wall, Marco Polo's Embassy, Darwin's Voyage, Magellan's Expedition, etc. After all, no civilization in our history was ever alone in the world. (Btw, there could never have been a Hoover Dam without building on Dutch knowledge, and the same will hold for a Cure for Cancer.)

The VOC is a product of the Dutch civilization from an age when the Dutch were leading the world and since the Dutch thrived (and still thrive) on trade, most appropriate to be chosen as a wonder - even though there are different options, for example Rembrandt's "Nachtwacht" and - a little later - the "Kinderdijk" mills. The VOC is also a landmark in human history as a whole.

There are enough wonders as is!!!

I do apologize for not having enough time to read everyone's posts. But I will state my general and humble opinion about wonders...

Please, PLEASE think about giving these "wonders" as rewards for being the first to discover a tech!!! It really does make a lot of sense to me.

You're the first to discover flight. You and everyone you have contact with get a message about the historic first flight of the Wright Brothers. Your civ now recieves 1+ movement with all air units. Does not expire.

You're the first to discover oh I don't know...navigation. You get - Magellan's Expedition! Everyone you know recieves a message about Magellan's voyage around the world. Your ships recieve a +2 bonus.

lets go with something non unit related...

You're the first to discover...Theology. You recieve - you guessed it...J.S. Bach's Cathedral. And then everone you know yak yak yak. Your cities recieve +1 happiness.

It's so simple!! You can apply that to a WHOLE BUNCH OF WONDERS!!!

Certain wonders however have to stick as something you build.

Examples include the Pyramids, Lighthouse, Great Wall, United Nations, Women's Sufferage (if that even sticks, i never liked it), Great Library...etc.

Please someone post about this...say you love it, say you hate it! I don't care, just reply. Thanks!

(I've been debating this for 6 months now, no one ever seems to respond to it. If everyone hates it, that's fine. But at least I'll know )

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 10-02-2000 09:36 PM Please, PLEASE think about giving these "wonders" as rewards for being the first to discover a tech!!! It really does make a lot of sense to me. You're the first to discover flight. You and everyone you have contact with get a message about the historic first flight of the Wright Brothers. Your civ now recieves 1+ movement with all air units. Does not expire. You're the first to discover oh I don't know...navigation. You get - Magellan's Expedition! Everyone you know recieves a message about Magellan's voyage around the world. Your ships recieve a +2 bonus .... Certain wonders however have to stick as something you build ....

I don't think this is wise. Civ2 is all about finding the right mix between research, income, growth and production - gaining too much from one of those (research) by itself would unbalance the game. It is also unrealistic. Magellan's Expedition, for instance, was an enormous undertaking, so production costs are quite to the point.

Easter Island
Colosseum

A monarchy-specific wonder, perhaps?

------------------
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills, we shall never surrender!" -Winston Churchill

quote: Originally posted by red_jon on 12-17-2000 10:29 AM The Magna Carter signing: Increases trade output of city (due to greater freedom). A monarchy-specific wonder, perhaps?

I'd have the Magna Carta come with Feudalism. How about: each new city starts with a free Pikemen unit?

I know no one ever comments on this idea, but I'll state it again...

PLEASE COMMENT!

If you give "mini-wonders" to civs who first discover techs (e.g. first to discover flight gets +2 movement with all air units, first to discover conscription recieves +50% defense with all riflemen, etc.) then you can give rewards without taking production and time away from the game. There should be certain "major wonders" such as the Great Wall and Apollo...but IMO these should be limited to 3-4 per era...or a total of 12-16 "major-wonders".

It is so much simpler to give rewards for the first to discover a tech than to waste 20 turns building something.

Also - Major wonders should have separate means of production.

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 11:45 AM I know no one ever comments on this idea, but I'll state it again... PLEASE COMMENT! ...

I did.

Don't you all think that 60-70 wonders is going to DOMINATE an already wonder dominated game?? I mean think logically...Easter Island Statues??? How can you possibly consider that a relevant wonder, or even something that one should strive to build??

Great wall or Hadrian's Wall...you have to pick one. Why have two essentially identical wonders?

Taj Mahal - how is that a courthouse in every city? How do the two even relate?

Magellan's Workshop - did you mean Voyage?

I don't consider the Gold Rush a wonder. It was a two year event that ended in a mass setlement of california. And it was mostly a bust.

Ford Motor Co.? How is that a wonder? it's a friggin' company!

Two bridges as wonders? I sure hope someone can support me at how this is going to come to weigh down the game.

We need to really think about what a WONDER of the world is A WoW is something so magnificent for it's time that people traveled across oceans and continents just to see it, and/or something that is still regarded today as a defining moment for Civs. Ask the average person what Hadrian's Wall is...most will have no clue. Ask the same person where the great wall is they'll say "China". Or the Great Pyramid. "Egypt". Ask them to explain the Easter Island Statues and they'll say "huh?".

Please, reconsider what you want in this game. Wonders should be limited. The purpose of the game is not to see who can build the most wonders and dominate...it's to rule an empire. Try to keep the focus on this point.

(Sorry to rain on everyone's parade )

The Taj Mahal is a symbol of justice (even though it was merely built for a man's wife)

Magellan's Voyage- replaced with the Magna Carta (a more substantial wonder)

The Gold Rush in california and the Gold Rush in Alaska were both important and also sparked a Bronze and Silver rush in Nevada, Utah, etc.

Ford- important symbol of American decadance.

Everyone should know about Hadrian's Wall;

with that many wonders, it would be impossible to accomplish anything productive besides wonder building. It would dominate the game, mostly because you would need to build wonders to keep up with the AI. The other likely outcome is that most wonders won't even be used.

I fail to see how the gold rush, Ford Motor Co., Golden Gate/Sydney Opera House....even begin to compare with the Great Wall of China, Apollo Program, Great Pyramid, Colossus...

Again, ask yourself what a true wonder of the world is.

Why not give a "Ford Motor Co." mini wonder to the first civ who discovers manufacturing...and it can increases production in the home city? Isn't that so much simpler? No production required, and no wasting time on an insignificant wonder!!

I personally think the Oracle, King Richard's Crusade, Darwin's Voyage, Leo's workshop...were stepping over the line into "non-wonderland"...but the Statue's on Easter Island?!?!?!

The easter Island statues are a wonder because they were built be people with little food and seemingly no provocation to do so.

The Golden Gate was one of the greatest engineering projects of our time

Perhaps the Opera House doesn't belong...

quote: The Colossus wasn't really that grand...

The statue, 120 feet high, took 12 years to build. Nearly equal in height to the Statue of Liberty, yet built more than two thousand years prior. People came from all over the Mediterranian to view it. Stood for the unity of three Aegean islands.

Though it is hard to give attributes to it, it is certainly a wonder. Should decrease corruption and increase trade.

quote: Originally posted by orange on 12-17-2000 04:10 PM Again, ask yourself what a true wonder of the world is.

If a government print to much money, they end up with inflation. I think Firaxis battles the same problem if they add too many wonders, in Civ-3. Its not only that many Wonders in these Wonder-threads are - well, rather "flat" and "ordinary", to be frank.

The fact that they are so MANY, is in itself also a problem. The 28 wonders in Civ-2 was already pretty much. Your suggesting 44 - and if that was not enough, some other guy suggested even more additional "wonders".

What wrong with a "quality before quantity" approach - especially when it comes to WONDERS

Pick one from each category per era (if doing 4 eras)
Engineering (pyramids)
Science (great library)
Religious (JS Bach)...[replace with another science during age of englightenment - modern]
Diplomatic (United Nations)
Military (Sun Tzu)
Exploration (Apollo)

I'd hate to see it go above 30 Major wonders...my ideal number would be 16-20...but I understand that most people love to see the major wonders.

Further the number of techs will also be increased if there are more tribes, because more techs could be traded. Say there are 126 techs (6x21), then 42 wonders would be 1 in 3 techs as opposed to 1 in 3.25 in Civ2.

So my vote is for 42 wonders in Civ3!
Now we have to decide which ones ....

I thought civ had 5 ages with 7 wonders each in them, thus 35 wonders!?!?

I still say 42 wonders is too much...in real life they aren't being built at all times. But in the game, there are often at least one built by at least two civ at any given point in the game....sometimes the same wonder

Pyramids = Granary for every City; obsolete by "G.A.O."; + 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.

Great Wall = Defensive Bonus vs. Barbarians + 5%Increase to Production/Trade/Science for the entire Civ; Obsolete by "Cannon making"; + 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.

Appian Way = Reduces cost of road building by 25%; Obsolete by "Feudalism/Knights".

Great Library = Autom. receive any advance discovered by 2-4 other Civ's, if one has made contact with at least 3-6 other Civ's; Obsolete by "Electricity"; + 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.

Chichen Itza = Reduces Crime/Corruption by 30% for the entire Civ., Obsolete by "Navigation";+ 15% Trade for the city when "Tourism/Hotel Industry" is discovered.

As for the rest of the ages, I'm a bit short on real wonders, so I have some more thinking to do.

Finally, and I do apologize if this has already come up somewhere else, why not have city improvements, which can be built in up to 4 sizes? For example, one could start building a medium size theatre, making 2 unhappy people content, later in the game, the theatre is upgraded to a big/very big one. Or if one started to build a very big science lab, and suddenly has to re-alocate production capacity to defense units, one could temporarily build a small/medium size lab. The idea beeing, that a very big city improvement would have the same effect as a wonder, and of course, it would also have the same price to build it.

As this is my first every post, I hope that nobody is unduly p..ed off.
-------------------------------------------------------
"The same thing we do every night, Pinky, try to take over the world!!!!"

Here's an idea for one. One, who I know for sure, will be completely and utterly unknown to allmost all non-dutch and most certainly non-europeans.

(with the sound of trumpets blowing) THE WAGENINGEN AGRICULTURAL UNIVERSITY

Wageningen is a small city of about 35.000 inhabitants on the banks of the river Rijn/Rhine about 30 km west of Arnhem (you may remember the battle for "a bridge too far" in 1944, Wageningen was on the edge of the battlefield). It houses since 1876 the "Wageningen Landbouw Hogeschool" (translation see above). The effort being put into research and application of new diary- and marketgardeningproductionmethods has lead to the fact the Netherlands have become and still are(for some fourty years now) the third (or might even be second) exporting country (first comes the USA) of agriculturalproducts*. Quite an achievement for such a small country.

Wageningen, all over the (agricultural) world stands for improved agricultural researchmethods.

In the game it could have the effect of one extra trade (and maybe also one extra sheaf) per farmed !!! square in the city where it's build and its directly adjacent cities.
It should occur somewhere with massproduction.

And it would be lovely to have, after the pyramids an other and a real agricultural wonder.

I can't see the Oracle working. The AI reacts to what it sees when it makes its turn. If the Oracle gives warning and you shift your units to defend that border, why would it then attack? :rolleyes

Incidentally, while not Wonders in one sense, having the Natural Wonders optionally appear on the map would be interesting, just for a little added flavour. Things like Everest, Niagra Falls, Giant Sequoia ?sp? and the Grand Canyon should be unterraformable, too, due to public pressure. The ability to name parts of the world (as SMAC did automatically) would be welcome, too.

Its not a wonder, but if there are no wars for about 5 turns, world peace starts.... and the people in EVERYONE'S civilizations are happier....

although, as most people know, Wars trigger inovation, so maybe a bonus for warring countries in military technological advances (based on #of attacks in ratio to the number of civilians/cities) because if there was no WWII, we probably wouldn't have most types of planes, A-Bombs, or space flight (although jet propulsion was probably on the table before the war)

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 12-19-2000 12:15 PM Ford was the first entrepreneur, factory owner to apply (somewhere in the 1920's) at large scale the idea's of Taylor, a scientist who developed a method for the analysis and synthesis of workprocesses. Ford developed the conveyor belt or assembly line. That's why Ford, and actually before him Taylor are so really very !!!! important. Ford motorcars became, because of these new productionmethods, so cheap that every American could dream/afford to have his/her own car. At the sametime Ford could pay his workers far better wages than any other factory owner could. It's a major contribution to the American dream. This is also why In CIV-II the mfg-plant can be build after having discovered the automobile. Though I think in CIV-III it should come with Taylorism, because it were Taylors ideas that had such a profound impact on productionmethods which lead to the material wealth we now know (in the western world). [This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited December 19, 2000).]

Yes..but really the ideas of Ford and Taylor yada yada come from the interchangable parts from Whitney, which came from somewhere which came from somewhere etc. etc.

It's like me saying that McDonalds is a wonder of the world because it was the first fast-food restaraunt that allowed the American public to get food cheap and quickly...which is a part of the American Dream.

I just think we should measure things up to the Pyramids, Great Wall, etc. So let me know if you think Ford Motor Co. is equal to Pyramids/Great Wall.