|
Author
|
|
Topic: space race with minimum cities-strategies- |  |
|
gambler
b.02-15-99
|
 |
posted March 11, 1999 03:02
   | 
 |
 |  |
Aaargh , I can't manage to do it at Deity !!
I did it quite easily at Emperor, at my first attempt, but at Diety level I'm always losing. I seem to be well on the way but in the end there is always a civilizition that conquers all the world and defeats me or makes me late enough so that I can't finish my spaceship.About conquering the world with one city:
I was about to do it at King, just two enemy cities left... (well, I had Howitzers and Armors, they have just discovered gunpowder)
|
Carolus Rex
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 11, 1999 03:58
|
|
| |
Against the AI, the next challenge would be to try with larger maps. With the largest world possible, the AI's production advantage would really take off.Carolus
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 11, 1999 08:02
|
|
| |
Geofelt... Congrats!
Since my ISP has been down often (a nice company that never had any problems until they were bought out be a big communications company) I'm giving it another try. Started with 3 whales and a wine, but had to start the city on plains. I just passed 1800, and I don't know yet whether Rahs record will fall. We will see...
As far as 1 City MPE goes, it won't work. Or I should say, it wouldn't be the same. Tribute is the primary source of income, and that doesn't work against real people.
I like the thought of trying with bigger maps.
And I might try a Kill everybody game. In the game I'm playing, my army is huge, and all non except for one ship that I built early.
|
Carolus Rex
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 11, 1999 10:16
|
|
| |
This has opened my eyes to new ways to play the game. I did understand from reading the threads in the MP forum that the diplomat is a key unit in those games, but never thought they would be so effective so early in AI games. Sure, I've had my fun bribing against the AI, but I never tried it this early before. I would build most of the early units myself.
Yesterday I started a three city game on a normal map. Three cities! After the recent orgie in one city games, it's pure luxury! Still played conventional in the beginning, building a phalanx in each city. After that, I went shopping. It's a lot of fun. Carolus
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 12, 1999 15:53
|
|
| |
Again, my ISP has allowed me to continue my quest against Rah's record my not letting me access the web at home... I'm at 1890, and it's going to be close, or I won't be able to do it. Science is not coming fast enough.Carolus Rex, yes, it is fun. I now have over 80 non military units, and nothing better to do but harass the nearest civs... Just bring your Visa card, and let the fun begin.
|
Matthew
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 14, 1999 12:36
|
|
| |
How about a 6 player 3 on 3 arena style game, one city a piece, and possibly no wonders except appollo program? We could probably do it single production. The game would still go by pretty quick. With 3 cities each it could probably be done without the science wonders, especially with the huge trade bonuses between the enormous cities, and 6 humans researching the tech (you know there would be plenty of tech stealing).
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 15, 1999 10:35
|
|
| |
3 on 3 would be tough... money would be a problem... but at least you wouldn't have to worry about losing your city to bribery.Well, I couldn't take Rah's record. Missed by 3 years. Didn't get the science fast enough. Well, I'll try again. With all the work I have to do around our house, an hour here and there is easier to do than MP. I will keep trying.
|
geofelt
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 15, 1999 20:56
|
|
| |
I was cheated!!
I launched a 15/3,3/1,1,1fusion ship in 1930, expecting to land in 1945, beating rah's record. But no!
The babylonians discovered space flight in 1931, discovered plastics, and superconductor and launched a 29/7,7/1,1,1 no fusion ship in 1934 arriving in 1942.
I checked out their 16 cities, and 5 had production of less than 10. No city produced more than 60, and most were in the 20's and 30's. If each city produced something every turn, it would have required 44 city/turns out of the available 48--not likely, I think, even considering the smaller deity production box. I don't think gold was used, they ended up with 7000.
This is sad, because I had a really nice gams. Guess I'll try again.
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 07:58
|
|
| |
Yes geofelt... you were screwed.
The trick is to harass the AI's and force them to concentrate on military. Once they get Superconductor... it's all over. The game where I didn't beat rah's record, none of the AI's were even close in the science race. They were too busy building military and giving me money.
Question, did you trade sciences with them after the early part of the game? I find it is better to never give them any advanced science. Make them do the research themselves.
But even though you got beat, it just shows the record can indeed be beat. The only question is, who will do it first.
|
rah
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 08:47
|
|
| |
Well I tried again and I'm in the late 1800 and it doesn't look good. Unless I get the perfect science path going out, it ain't going to happen. Only 5 other civs caused a problem with money. I didn't build the great library this time and it didn't seem to matter. They gave me all the simple sciences as tribute. I am still way ahead in the science race. And geofelt, you were screwed but I'm also interested to know if you traded sciences with them later in the game. If you did, it's your own fault. I also believe harassment of the enemy is critical. They have lots of cities that only produce units instead of city improvements which really slows their science development. And as we all know, hehehehe, once they get superconductor, your spaceship better be long gone or you're toast. I may try once more, but that despotism challange is starting to sound interesting. I can't believe my first completed attempt still stands as a record. I'm particularly disappointed with Ming. (imagine appropriate childish taunting noises here)
RAH
|
Adam Smith
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 10:44
|
|
| |
You may still be able to help yourself by trading technologies late in the game. If you are about to get off the science path you need, pick something that an AI has, research it for one turn, then trade it to the AI for whatever. Next turn you get to pick a new tech to research, and will probably get back on the path. At a minimum, it takes less time to get back on the path you need. You may even save time overall if AI's can research faster than you.
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 11:01
|
|
| |
I understand what you are saying Adam Smith. And I have done that at low levels before. But to give the AI's any advanced science is the road to death if you ask me.
And Rah... I did hear the "childish taunting noises"... Your record will fall.
|
Bird
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 12:26
|
|
| |
A couple of comments and questions from someone who hasn't succeeded at this yet.In my most recent attempt, I spent the first 2000 years (what is that, 20 turns?) picking up goodie huts and looking for a good starting location. By the time I settled the city, I had contacted three of the other four civilizations and I don't think any of them had more than one city, and only one of those was size 2. Does the AI mimic a slow start by the human player? If so, it seems to minimize the risk of falling too far behind one of the other civs in science. The problem, in my game at least, was at the back end of the game. I probably could have launched a space ship by 2015, but it wasn't going to arrive by 2020. (Those of you who are focused on arriving before 1935 can stop chuckling now.) It is really tough to get enough money to buy a decent NON military. Do you mostly pick off barbarian units or do you aggressively pursue other civ units as well? Either way, I think I'm going to have to work on my skills demanding tribute. You have Colussus. If you have to choose between KRC and Copernicus, which would you take? Do you think you can win without one of those?
|
Bird
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 12:37
|
|
| |
One other thing. I've been playing on small world with five civs. Is there a consensus that seven civs is easier? Seems to me it would allow more tribute and slow down the expansion of other civs. Tonight, seven it will be.
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 12:49
|
|
| |
Without tribute, you don't have the money to bribe and buy... It's that simple. The only real early money is barbs and the small change from huts. Once the other civs start getting money, let the tribute begin.
And go for 7 civs. I get pissed when I set 7 and end up with less. The more civs, the more tribute.
And Copernicus is a must to get science going. KRC is nice, but most of the games I've played, I haven't built it. I've built Colussus in every game. The hanging gardens is nice, but I can now live without it. I pray I get medicine from a hut so I can work on ST... because that is the answer to happiness...
Keep on trying... it's fun.
|
rah
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 14:11
|
|
| |
The science wonders are a must. I have never built krc in any game I've ever played. I'm always too busy building other wonders. (what does it do anyway, hahaha) I have stopped building GL and HG. Ming is right, get to medicine and build ST. ..and no, the AI does not mimic a slow human start.
Until Ming kicks my ass, I have to assume that I had the better strategy.
(The keyboard just can't express the proper attitude on childish taunting noises)
RAH
|
Bird
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 15:16
|
|
| |
I've built Shakespeare's in every game, and the need to do so is generally why I can't get both Copernicus and KRC. Happiness, for me, has not been a problem: temple and colosseum usually take care of things until ST (perhaps with a few turns at 10% luxuries towards the end). I haven't built HG ever, but was thinking of doing so just to experiment with WTLPD in monarchy. Any thoughts on whether that would be productive?
|
geofelt
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 16, 1999 16:55
|
|
| |
A key is the science rate at the end of the game. I don't trade ANYTHING then. The AI will give it to everyone. I did trade for something in the middle, but only a tech that the other civs already had.
I think you want all the science wonders. This not only helps you, but it slows the AI. I always like KRC, but perhaps it is not necessary. My best cities have the potential for 80 shields-net. A city with 5 hills(esp wine/coal) and 5 river squares is ideal. If it can be defended from mountains nearby- then perfect. In such a city, then KRC may not be needed, only to deny it ti the AI. I have been trying to build the great library, part for me, and part to keep the AI down.
Question; do you all trade for techs early, use the GL, or develop them all yourself? Before embassy, I trade once to see what the new civ has.
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 17, 1999 11:35
|
|
| |
Your problem geofelt is a classic one. You are hung up on production and not trade. Your idea of a good city gives it away. Coal, who cares... give me wine, spice, gold, and other trade specials. My current game has two gold, a fur, and a whale. Yes, I'm light on production (I have converted a grassland to hills to jump the production a little. All you really need is 55 production. That way, one freight and your 55 allows a structure to be built. Money can be used to buy up everything else.
Who cares what your production... tell my how much trade you have. That is what keeps you ahead in the science race. The game I'm playing now (and I better finish before rah posts an even better record) the other civs are so far behind it's great. There will be no way they will be able to pull that launch after me but beat me anyway crap. Now I just I have to finish up and see if 1953 will be going down.
Now to answer your questions. I trade very early only. There is a rare time when I might trade a middle science if all they ask for is something stupid. (mono for navigation was the last one I did) Otherwise, no trading for me. Plus, you can usually get them as tribute. Which brings me to the next point. Go for the science wonders. You must have them in the end. GL is no longer of interest to me. It doesn't matter if an ai gets it, because they would trade anyway. At the point in the game when I can build it, there are better things to be doing. Any sciences you really need you can get through tribute. After the early period, 99% of all sciences, I develope myself.
|
rah
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 17, 1999 11:57
|
|
| |
Gee... after reading that novel, all I can say is.....Same strategy as me. What a surprise. The record will depend on how lucky a start position and luck on the huts. This tells me the record will fall because all it will take is persistence. Ming has plenty of that.
BUT UNTILL THEN: (CAPITAL CHILDISH TAUTING NOISES)
Somehow I know the payback on that will be a b*tch.
On to despotism.
RAH
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 17, 1999 12:10
|
|
| |
ARGHHHHHHH!
That record will fall if it's the last thing I do.
(insert music from any Rocky movie)
|
Carolus Rex
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 17, 1999 13:04
|
|
| |
Bird,I think you have to look over your early science path. Copernicu's Observatory should be built before the Theatre. The earlier the beakers start accumulating the better. Go for astronomy before medecine (doesn't astronomy come earlier anyway?). I haven't had any trouble getting both.
Initially happiness isn't a problem (even without HG), ST is not needed until later. Building a colosseum seems like overkill. I build a temple and let some of the NONE units take care of unhappiness (monarchy is my first goal) until I have ST. The thing I like most about ST in this type of game, is the ability to set the luxuries' rate to zero after "we love the president"-days without causing unhappiness. About the science wonders: didn't Ming do it without the Colossus his first time? If we are talking about landing on AC asap, all three are needed. geofelt, If you were cheated, what do you call this? (Don't tell me, I don't want to know!)
In a three city game I launched a ship, estimated to arrive in 2009 (like Bird, I can hear some chuckles!). Feeling confident I didn't pay much attention to the game. Turns out the Japanese launch a faster ship, arriving that very same year. The years go by, 2009 pops up and the Japanese ship lands before mine. ARGHHH... Talk about defeat! Should have chosen the Romans (I think I played as the Spanish). Carolus
|
Bird
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 17, 1999 14:07
|
|
| |
Carolus: My post wasn't very clear. I have been building Copernicus first, choosing that over KRC, but usually get medicine during the process or already have it. Then, even if KRC is still available, and it sometimes isn't, I build ST. By then, KRC has always been built. KRC clearly cannot have priority over ST, but I was wondering whether it should have priority over Copernicus. I didn't think it should, and based on the comments from the pros, it's pretty clear that it shouldn't.By the way, in my current game I switched to 7 civs (from 5) and it makes a HUGE difference. I'm not sure I'll win because the city is growing too slowly (good defensive location, but too many plains, no grasslands), but the money coming in from tribute is much greater.
|
rah
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 17, 1999 14:53
|
|
| |
Just for the record, my 1953 run was done without the Colossus. and to which takes precedence betweem the observatory and ST. Which ever one is available first. You have to have them both. It all depends on which sciences you are allowed to choose from. I would prefer the observatory first but sometimes I get locked out of that path.
RAH
|
geofelt
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 17, 1999 18:10
|
|
| |
Sounds like I'll have to work on trade more. I do like those wine hills.
For those of you who like tribute, get an alliance early with a civ that is likely to grow. You can ask for gifts for a long time after you go to republic/democracy. A neighbor civ is good because you get a warning before the inevitable sneak attack.
|
Carolus Rex
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 18, 1999 04:43
|
|
| |
Bird,KRC is really "just" an early factory. I agree with you about the ranking of these three wonders, KRC has the lowest priority in my book (in this type of game). About the science path: after philosophy astronomy is just around the corner more often than not. If I get medecine first and start on ST, and discover astronomy while building it, I would switch with one exception: if other civs are also building ST. Carolus
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 18, 1999 08:17
|
|
| |
Two gold, one whale and a fur did the trick.
HEY RAH... 1942! Read it and weep.
I know this can be beat... but I was pleased with the outcome. None of the other civs were even close in science.
Col, ST, Corn, Issac, LW, SOL, UN and Apollo were all that were needed. The best was, I got electricity one turn after the GL was built... he he he.
|
rah
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 18, 1999 08:30
|
|
| |
Sh*t, If I only could have posted 10 minutes earlier. My spaceship is away and talk about twins, it's scheduled to land in 1942. I guess we will momentarily share the record. The ship has no fusion drive or it would have landed in the thirties, so I know it can be beat. But I'm satisfied with my effort so it's time to move on to despotism. My wonder list matches Ming's (what a surprise) My specials were slightly different, two wheats a silk and a whine. (excuse me that was wine) Well done Ming, and I didn't weep for long, (all of about one nanosecond) My kingdom for a fusion drive.
RAH
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 18, 1999 09:04
|
|
| |
Man, talk about twins...
I'm still satisfied for now. On to the despotism challange. I'll try the one city challange again when somebody beats 1942. I think the roaring 20's is possible, but it is indeed time for a new challange.
|
Bird
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 18, 1999 10:55
|
|
| |
Ming and RAH: congrats to both of you. I'm going to miss the taunting, however. (Are you both sure you can accept this equal status?)Ming, I can't recall ever seen two gold together, much less with two other specials like that. How many restarts did it take to get that combo?
|
geofelt
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 18, 1999 10:57
|
|
| |
ming/rah: congratulations.
Question: Why do you feel SOL and UN were important? In what way did they speed the launch? Also what type world and barbarians?
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 18, 1999 12:25
|
|
| |
Geofelt
Both SOL and UN are key to mine and Rahs strategy. SOL allows you to drop out of democracy for a turn, and demand tribute. The next turn, you are back in Democracy without any of that anarchy stuff. You only miss one turn of science this way. Second, the UN is also key. Later in the game I hate dropping out of democracy for even a turn because of the science lost. UN allows you to stay in democracy. Check with a small civ at the beginning of the turn and see if the hawks are in power. If they are, you can talk to the powerful civs and deny the cease fire, and they will then offer money. Without UN, you can't do this, and you must drop out of Democracy. After a few turns, they will sneak attack... repeat process.
Money is key to our strategy. You basically buy the space craft.
And again, small world, 7 civs (if they all appear), and restless for the barbs.
And Bird... in small worlds, you sometimes get a ton of mountains. In these cases, two gold happen all the time. I did indeed reset many times after checking out the space around me... For this one, I found this location after about 6 turns.
As far as equal goes... it beats being a loser. And I really want to try the despotism challange now. So this can wait until somebody beats us.
|
Nakin Tames
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 19, 1999 21:05
|
|
| |
This one city thing is very interesting.
I am by no means an expert player. It's 1957
and I have survived, for me that's good.
I also have HG, GL, ST, CO and Leo.
A temple, library, granery, marketplace, citywalls and colosseum.
I had a great start, on a river(7 river
squares, 5 hills and a mountain, mixed plains and grass, no specials).
I got a lot of techs early from huts but only one archer. The saving grace was getting gunpowder before everyone else. Really amazing to see the Zulus attack my mountain fortified veteran musketeer. I am in a constant state of war with 2 of the 3 other civs(I set 7 but only know of 3 others besides me), I allied with the Persians early and so far it has been a beneficial alliance.
I tried demanding tribute but all I got was war. I don't think anyone's getting to AC in this game. Not enough science, soon enough.
But it's been fun and the first game I've played in 6 months.
Nakin
|
Theben
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 21, 1999 11:58
|
|
| |
Nakin Tames,
Should've sold the temple & colosseum if you have ST.I think many river squares help. You can make mini-special squares on rivers-forest, hills. Not that I can judge. Every time I think I'm about to win, I get attacked on multiple sides, delaying my spaceship production until too late.
|
gambler
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 22, 1999 02:57
|
|
| |
AARGH !!!
After a lot of attempts I managed to do it in 1949and I thought it was a new record.
Then This morning (I haven't check this thread for a while) I'm ready to post it
and now I have just realized that Ming and Rah scored a new record.
Well, I'll try to beat them at despotism challange...
|
catullus
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 22, 1999 03:43
|
|
| |
Well, I started this mess, so I just had to have a try. And another. And another. And... you all catch the drift. So, I made it. Sort of. SS landed in 2071. Don't laugh.Strange thing: The Americans buildt Apollo by 2010 or something, and had all tech by 2020, but they never buildt a single SS part. They were busy fighting the Japanese (thanks to my little greasing of their palms), so they never bothered enter the race.
Specials: Whale, fish, pheasant and wheat. Wonders: Col, HG, Copernicus, INC, ST are must-haves. Missed out Leo (most my NONE units were dead by then anyway due to raging hordes) or KRC. Buildt UN, probably an OK investment. Hoover (I desperately wanted a hydro plant, but had no rivers/mountains), most probably a waste. And Manhattan, when the Americans beat me to Apollo. I had SDI already, so why not? But how cut 150 turns from the game? Two mined no-special mountains and a pheasant square were wasted trade-wise. And the city itself was founded on hills (that stinks majorly). It never grew past size 29. Next time, I'll finish before 2020. C.
|
Ming
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 22, 1999 11:01
|
|
| |
Gambler... heh heh heh... Congratulations, that's a great score. Take a look at the other challange thread... you will see what you have to beat for despotism.
Cattulus
Never start on a hill... It sounds like you are playing the game in a normal fashion instead of concentrating on the key goal... SCIENCES. Building MP must have been a real waste of resourses... why not be building the many food caravans that will allow you to build a space ship part every turn?
And giving money away to start a war?
A better focus should cut many years off your last attempt.
|
Theben
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 22, 1999 11:01
|
|
| |
Catullus,
Use your engineers. This applies to every game not just this one. Engineers should change your mountains to hills(unless you have a fort on them for defense) and even settlers could turn your pheasant to buffalo. In the end, buffalo w/farms, rr's out performs pheasant every time UNLESS the pheasant is on a river square; then the DEF bonus may cause you to keep it. If you are near rivers then use engineers to create hills on rivers. They will have a great DEF bonus+mines+trade from river.
|
Theben
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 22, 1999 11:07
|
|
| |
Ming,
Aren't you supposed to be working now? :)I often give money to the enemy to start a war, then demand tribute the same turn. Doesn't always work, but most of the time I'll get my investment back and then some. Catullus,
Missed the starting on a hill thing. Yeah, don't do that. Start on a river square. Later you can turn the city square into a hill and the food/shield/trade will=plains but you get a defensive bonus.
|
Bird
b.02-15-99
|
|
posted March 22, 1999 11:28
|
|
| |
Two more strikeouts this weekend. Got close once (had all the structurals built by 2020 and no one else had even started). One thing I've noticed is that my best attempts have all involved extensive goodie hut searches prior to settling the city. You never get barbarians until the city is founded, and once you settle the city it seems like half the huts contain them. This is such a notable difference that even if I find a good starting spot early on, I'll have the settler improve it while the other one continues hunting with the other units I've found.
| |
Apolyton Civilization Site Forums-archives
