I'll vote first.
1. Best Civ game? Yes.

Despite it's faults, its bugs, and the Civ2 stuff they left out of it, I think that the logical view is that, without having tried TOT or SMAC, it kicks butt! Pound for pound, I think it's better than Civ and Civ2.

2. Best TBS? I don't know.

I haven't played every TBS out there, so I'll decline from giving an opinion on that side.

And...
3. If you don't have an opinion about either or don't think it's in 1 or 2, what's something you like about CTP?

...I like lots of things, which I'll include later, but for now...

What do you think?

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"Verrosten est X-beine das Fahrbar Bliken Obszon
Abgabepflichtighoffenburger!?!?!?!"

My vote:

Is CTP the best Civ game out there? Yes, CTP is the best Civ game out there. I have tried them all.

Is CTP the best TBS Game out there? I don't know, I haven't tried them all, but it is the best one that I have tried.

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"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"It never stops, never rests, and I can see its hideous face: it looks like Jesus, looks like Lucifer, looks like me...looks like I won't be seeing you tonight..."--Thomas Knight.

"Verrosten est X-beine das Fahrbar Bliken Obszon
Abgabepflichtighoffenburger!?!?!?!"

I have noticed that CTP has eliminated a number of annoyances that occurred in the Sid games. Let's list the ones you have noticed. I will list a couple to start.
1) You get a warning that a city may riot the next turn, which gives you a chance to take pre-emptive action. In the other games, you had to manually check out each city to prevent this.
2) Sleeping units in ports stay that way when a ship comes in. This eliminates a lot of hassels when moving invasion forces.

Excellent, reasonable, well-explained points, Wes.

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"It never stops, never rests, and I can see its hideous face: it looks like Jesus, looks like Lucifer, looks like me...looks like I won't be seeing you tonight..."--Thomas Knight.

"Verrosten est X-beine das Fahrbar Bliken Obszon
Abgabepflichtighoffenburger!?!?!?!"

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I quess I'll list a couple more. The airport. I remember thinking when playing civ II that the airport's function was largely a waste, and that it should also increase revenue or something, and that is exactly what Activision did in CTP. The stacked combat feature makes more realistic battles. In civ II, your artillery was used to battle defending infantry. With CTP, the artillery correctly is used to soften up the defenders, while other types storm the walls. Also, the AI now attacks in the proper unit sequence due to the stacking feature.
This thread was intended to be a place where we could share the good features of CTP, since so many threads concentrate on the gripes we have with it.

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Personally I like how the happiness button in the city tab will tell you why the city is unhappy.... How about the active defence idea? I like that too...

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I like that railroads don't give you infinite movement. You can no longer
move out of a city, travel all the way around the world on the enemy's
railroad, and attack another city in the same turn.

I LOVE bombarding. "LIGHT THE FUSE!"

I like the differentiated shallow and deep oceans.

I like that mountains get larger graphically if there are more mountain tiles
together.

I like the trade system. No more moving caravans, and its special resource -
based.

and more...

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Pathing allows you to see how many tiles a unit can move.

The interface in CTP has gotton a lot of criticism, as many people have
complained about the tabs (too small, too many clicks, no more city screen)
One advantage of the tab system in CTP is that it doesn't block out the
map. The city labor screen is movable too.

Some players complain about the spreadsheet
quality of CTP. However, I find it gives you a clearer picture of how your civ
is doing. I also like the complete city list that allows you to compare cities
based on production/hapiness/science/gold and helps you strategically plan
which cities get what improvements.

I haven't played CIV or CIVII, but I have a copy of CIV Test of Time, so I'm
drawing comparisons from that.

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I like how if an enemy unit occupies a tile you were working, the computer
automatically moves the worker back to it when the unit moves off of it.

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Although this has more to do with me (and the Apolyton site!) than with the
game, I like the fact that I can now change the civs and civ leader graphics
on my own. There was no way I could do that (as far as I can tell....) on
Civ II.

I also like the increased number of Wonders, and the fact that the game
doesn't end so early. I also like the fact that the AI wonder can really be a
gamble!

I also like that CTP is more multi-cultural, in that a higher percentage of the
Wonders, civs, and music are of non-EuroAmerican origin. (Some of my
faves, such as the Maya, were skipped in Civ II. Now they even have their
own wonder!)

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I like the customizability, is that a word, of just about everything in the
game.

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Just found out the other day that there is right click help for most things on
the user interface. Very useful IMO... I like how if you right click on an
improvement or unit on the queue list it gives a small description of it... I
didn't know you can do this until the other day... i used to alternate
between the build screen and the queue list to see what an improvement
does...

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It's hard to remember that far back (I've not played civII for about a year). But how come public works don't rate a mention? Micromanaging a horde of food hungry engineers/settlers was a nightmare, particularly when you'd disbanded them on a continent because it was already maximally developed. I also love the different levels of mining, farming etc - and the advanced farms DO NOT require that annoying supermarket to be built. Also micromanaging (and I know this has already been mentioned) is trading. It's a shame all goods are equal in CTP (I'd like things like oil to be worthless initially, but hugely valuable in the mid game), but being able to set up trade
routes without guiding your little camel/truck around the map is a big improvement. Another biggie (unless I misremember civII) is that you can kick out settlers without starting wars (ie by killing them). It's good to see some positive threads about CTP, since certain forummers appear to enjoy bullying those of us who actually like the game. It's a flawed game with the potential to be the best TBS so far. I just hope that they continue to improve it to iron out all the little things that still bug me/us - eg AI and diplomacy.

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It took getting Test of Time to bring to my attention how many things CtP got right. Bombarding, stacking, pathing, graphics(!!!), trade. The government model is much better than CivII, especially since it's expandable and configurable, though I do like SMACs "social engineering" matrix even more.
One thing I =really= appreciate: the alert-box system. I hated late-game in CivII, having to click through endless alert messages at the beginning of each turn before I could do =anything= else, even just save and quit. In CtP, I look at the messages when I want to, and if I wanna save and quit at the beginning of a turn, all the messages are still waiting for me when I get back. Come to think of it, I also really like how, no matter what is going on, I can open different menus or tabs without having to wait other stuff to finish. Nicely done, Activision! I do have some gripes, but those are for other threads. :-)

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I love queues. Also, being able to assign a certain thing to be built for multiple cities at once. Near the end of the game, when I am just maxing out cities, I create an "ultimate queue" that has all the buildings, and have every city build it. After I see a leviathan (last production item) come out of a city, it can build just about anything in 1-3 turns, or can churn out tons of money/PW.

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Another big improvement in CTP is in the AI's ability to use the terrain improvements. If you've ever used the cheat ability to look inside the AI cities in CIV II, you would see that the tiles the settlers were improving were not coordinated with the ones the cities were using. In CTP, the AI does base improvements on what a city needs. This makes for a much better use of resources and a more realistic opponent.

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CTP is a great game! Maybe it's not good as CivII was in '96, but now, it's much better than CivII. Maybe its not a perfect game, but there is no perfect game!! Everytime I lost the CTP disc and played CivII for nostalgy of CTP, I miss CTP much more than I miss CivII when I play CTP.

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CTP is a great game. I'm not one to waste time playing games I don't like. And I've played this game for hours upon hours. I love CTP, and I can't wait to see what Activision has in store next.

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My initial reaction to the game was negative but that was because I was not famliar with the in and outs of it. But now a couple of months later I like it more than Civ. 2.

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At least I can tell what each sprite is supposed to be. The graphic definition is much clearer than TOT or CIVII. And lets face it, if the sprites were in proportion to the map, then you couldn't see your units in the first place....

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CTP rocks!!! I have been saying this since it came out. I dont play Civ 2 anymore with CTP's trade and its fighting (more than one unit at a time) cant believe someone doesnt like this game.

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I like the big units! I have a 19" monitor and I play at 640x480.. it makes me giggle like a school girl to finally see units that seem.. well.. like units and not eensy splotches of color (like starcraft, etc.) In the words of Sir MixALot, "I like 'em round.. and big!" referring to the fact that I enjoy prodigiously sized units, with an absence of jaggies. Give me WarcraftII any old day! Oh, which *mods* would everyone suggest? I have the 1.2 patch, and heard mention of an "Apolyton" and a "sandwich" pack.. would anyone care to elaborate?

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One thing on the sprites, I would prefer, both in Civ and CTP if the sprites were units rather than individuals - i.e. a squadron of ships/planes, a cohort of legionaries, a company of musketeers. I think this would look awesome. Would have been a lot better then wasting a whole lot of graphic resources making the sprites throw shadows

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I agree with ProvostB so far.. SMAC is the best civ game so far... the sheer amount of options in its diplomacy, the combinations of its social enginnering model, the 3D terrain and the unit design shop are just a few things that have won it for me.

This is not to say that CT does not have any great functions. The single best thing is Support at a Civ level not at a city level. Trade has been inproved (but has a looooong way to go)and customization is very nice. (To bad you need to actually do this to make the game work..........)

Now, the two biggest slams I have heard against SMAC are 1) The colors suck and 2) I don't like the sci-fi element (You can make this comment about the Genetic and Diamond ages in CTP). These are valid comments, but I do not believe that they detract from it being the BEST Civ type game.

Reasons that I think that CTP falls short:

1) Game Balance is off. This surrounds the fact that the most cost effective unit is the Pikeman. (Fascists are an exception but require a special government)

2) AI does not adhere to its own pacts. I.e. non-piracy, no tresspass

3) Diplomacy is BAAAAAAD.

4) The timing of the ages are off.

5) The game was released about 4 months early. (This is not to say SMAC was perfect because it is on patch 4)

6) No borders

Now some of the good ideas that did not work as well as anticipated.

PW. I found that it is no less maintenance dealing with these than formers.

Special Units. Some are good - Slaver but some are plain abusive like Lawyers and Subliminal.

Trade: It is just a slightly enhanced version of Civ2. Could have been more.

Space and Sea Cities. Generally have come too late in the game to be usefull.

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1. Best Civ game?

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(Not Civ-like: that's this question: )

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2. Best TBS?

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(And I'll paraphrase the third: )

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3. If not, what's something you like about CTP?

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Unless I'm shamelessly drunk, SMAC is not in the Civ serious, otherwise it would be called: Civ: AC...no?

Hey, thanks for your vote anyway

But for argument's sake (although this is not the purpose of this thread) okay...

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1) Game Balance is off. This surrounds the fact that the most cost effective unit is the Pikeman. (Fascists are an exception but require a special government)

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--1. This can be corrected easily.

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2) AI does not adhere to its own pacts. I.e. non-piracy, no tresspass

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--2. This is true, but this is being corrected right now.

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3) Diplomacy is BAAAAAAD.

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--3. Yes it is. This is also being corrected right now.

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4) The timing of the ages are off.

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--4. This can be easily corrected.

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5) The game was released about 4 months early. (This is not to say SMAC was perfect because it is on patch 4)

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--5. Probably, I'm not sure. But what game in this day and age comes out the exact day it was originally intended, working perfectly?
But what is your point here?

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6) No borders

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--6. Well, you got me there. I'd love to see them and wish I knew how to incorporate them into citys' surrounding limits, maybe making them faintly the same color as the civ, but I'm not sure that can be down (at least, I don't know). So, one for you

As for your other, following comments, I'll leave it to someone else to comment on them, because I've said enough for now.

Thanks for your vote, though.

BM:

The 'lawyer' thing--true enough

Ahhhh... so you want to know which game with the word "Civilization" in its name is the best. Ok to be honest there are really not that many competitors out there is there?

Here's some that I can think of> Civ1, Civ2, CTP, TOT, freeciv, Galatic Civ?

I don't know about the last two but out of Civ1, Civ2, CTP, TOT I think civ1 is out of the race since it's too old (although some might disagree) I also havent played TOT so I guess I'll cast my vote based on what I know. CTP and civ2

Hmmmm... I'm reluctant to call CTP as the best civ game yet because in doing so it would say that CTP beats civ2 hands down. Same reason as to why I can't simply say civ2 is better. To put it simply civ2 has things that CTP is currently lacking and CTP has things that civ2 is lacking.

There are the things in civ2's gameplay that CTP has improved on. Building queue, empire level support, powerworks, stacking are all great ideas that CTP introduced. But at the cost of a better diplomacy, speed of the turns, general atmospheric touches (Believe it or not but even the sound of a simple cheer when you create a city improvement in civ2 makes me want to go on when I'm about to fall asleep).

Ok I think I'm still going off topic but i hope you see my position when I said that neither CTP nor civ2 can topple each other at this point in time. But hey show me a much improved diplomacy model, a border or two and maybe increased speed in CTP and I'll say that CTP easily tramps over civ2 anyday.

Best TBS game? CTP? No. Simple as that.

As for saying that SMAC does not belong in the civ category... errr you might like to play SMAC and tell me which has more in common with civ2... CTP or SMAC. Also I think SMAC has every right to be called a civ-style game... it is a story about mankind's civilization settling on a far distant planet to escape the ravages of Earth. The only reason why it doesn't have the name civilization is probably because Firaxis does not own the rights to the Civ name... microprose does which they lent to Activision ,who decided to create a totally different game based on a similar concept.

As for SMAC, I dunno. Never played it, never wanted to--I'm into more realistic games, and I took a look at its graphics and wasn't impressed. Again, that's me; a lot of people say they like it better. Okay--so that's why opinions are called opinions and not facts.
I'd like someone to describe points about why they think SMAC is better, list some qualities...can it be customized? Can the graphics be improved? Things like this.

I'm not into game manufacturing politics, so I don't know and will have to take your word on that. But maybe list a few points describing why SMAC should be included in the Civ question here. Perhaps I was wrong.

Anyway, I do see your point, and I'm glad you have an open, reasoning mind on this subject. If you have further suggestions for improvements, maybe visit some of the Creation threads and take a moment to put some down. There are a number of people, like myself, who are realizing the potential of this game and are trying to bring it out, and new comments and suggestions are welcome.

Monkey,
So you played SMAC - I tried the demo. The graphics didn't bother me like they do some people. I guess the main problem I had was that I couldn't get into the Sci-fi aspect of the game. I felt that I had to have a Ph.D. in order to understand the various techs. That and the unit pathing...

The diplomacy though - that was fascinating. It definitely drew you into the game. You really felt that you were dealing with flesh-and-blood opponents. If only CTP had that...

No, Wes, not the borders when you go into the city production screen; borders as in a civ's borders, like political borders in the real world. I think this would great, stopping that Wandering AI Syndrone, adding more realism--you cross the border: act of war. Period. End of discussion. (Except for special units, of course.) I would love to see that, wouldn't you?
I hear what you're saying, though, about the workers switching or caught on the enemy civ's land.
Seems to me that Civ2's AI wasn't all that special, esp. regarding trespassing; their units did it all the time too, except you couldn't expel any of them and the enemy unit ruined the tile it was parked on. (Oh boy I starved many an AI city surrounding it with thirty divisions of tanks and then building fortresses in every city square radius...not attacking, just waiting for the numbers to drop, once in a while see some pathetic unit try to futilely smash its way out of the city--usually I'd do that to the very last city, esp. if that civ made it tough for me. I'd wait until the population hit 1, then I'd knock it off with some old, clunkety knight or musketeer. Ah...that was fun. I haven't tried that yet with CTP.
Geez, I gotta give that a try!)

Hmmmm from your post it sounds like you like CTP because it was a whole new different game... I'm beginning to think that there are two kinds of civers who played civ2 before moving on to CTP.

1) The crowd that liked civ2 and doen't want any significant changes. I've seen posts where people go on and on about the interface of CTP and how they weren't willing to give it a good go because the interface was horrible in their opinion and how they shouldn't have to play more than a couple of hours to get used to the interface yadi yadi ya.... if this is the majority of civers then i worry about the outcome of civ3.

2) The crowd that liked civ2 but believed civ2 was too limiting in some ways or executed some things wrongly. I can see how this would cause the "CTP is better than SMAC" threads since SMAC is almost like civ2 in every way.... and you don't really want to be playing a game with the same limitations of civ2.

Nordicus>

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but Civ2 is (although a great game) a rock. It can't be changed or improved upon. CTP can be, is, and will be improved upon.

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I absolutely agree with every single word that you said here... now you know how i feel in the thread "Does anyone here feel the same way as I do?" It's great that modmakers are fixing up CTP but I'm concern about what new players who don't have access to the internet are getting right out of the box... Activision is and will always be responsible for fixing up certain things.

Hexagonian>