I can't think of any game I played where I didn't have to go to its web site (conspiracy!) at some point of another--take Aliens vs Predator: excellent game, fantastic, and if your system can deal with it and you have the card that can accelerate the graphics half-assedly, I'd say it's best game I've ever played, as far as action or 'role-playing' action/adventure or FPS titles go (what other game let's you become an alien, or colonial marine or Predator, in a FPS type scenario and hunt people--and eat them ?), but even with its patch, I can't say it's worth the price I paid, considering all the hassles, its greedy system requirements (RAM etc.), as well as freeing up system resources (oh don't me started--80% minimum, but I can go down to 59% with CTP and be fine), its swollen data on my hard drive (200 MB?!: ya right--took up 700 MB) and so on, plus the fact that I have to reinstall joystick software continually. I would recommend it to people only if they have a PIII 450 mhz (or an AMD equivalent), a Voodoo3 card or Diamond Viper 770 (or equal or better) with 32 bit functioning and at least 16MB, SoundBlaster Live (equal or better, or EAX support), 128 MB of RAM (and at least 80% free system resources), 17 inch .27mm dpi rez, a 16x (minimum) CD ROM drive, and a MS SideWinder Precision Pro (or Logitech Wingman) Joystick. If you have all that, go get it. Otherwise, don't bother, it won't be worth the money. I've been to its site more times than I'd like to admit, and tech support is pathetic, compared to CTP (and that's an apples/oranges comparison). I got bored with AvP and its hassles, and moved on to playing CTP, though I probably enjoy making stuff for it as much as playing it.

But CTP doesn't need any of that stuff (maybe the RAM, I think I think...). My point isn't comparing TBS and FPS or action/adventure games, that's silly, but it's that in 1999 you're very hard-pressed to get a new game that you can slip in and expect rays of heavenly sunshine.
If there is such a game, I'd like to hear about it.
I have more examples and I'm sure others have tons of examples of games and their intrinsic complications. As far as CTP goes, it's a snap (unless I screw up while messing around with files, then it's hell). I really wish computer games were like console games: ya stick it in, it works, it's good, you play. Nothing's that simple anymore, that's my point.
I think that you like this game but are (like many others, and I have to include myself in there, like you stated) getting sick of waiting for Activision or whoever to get its crap together. Maybe your beef is more with the company, at least that's the sense I'm getting. I may be wrong.

It seems that I might have been too quick to exclude SMAC from the Civ series, it sures sounds like Civ2, but that might be a good headline for a different thread:
"Is SMAC part of the CIV line?--why or why not?"

Anyway, I agree that it is Activision's responsiblity. I won't argue there.
And honestly, if there's a better game out that does as much (combining nation building with world conquering, et cetera), has the options, and the customization abilities, heck, I'll play the demo to check it out. But I've looked and there just isn't. So, while waiting for *place-company-name-here* to get the 1.3 patch out, or for CivIII to show itself, what can ya do? Hopefully, as more people realize this game's potential, they'll support it, which should justify Activision/Firaxis to do more (hey, well, a guy can always hope for such things). Maybe CTP is the lab rat before CivIII comes out, I don't know. Like I said, I hate getting into that sorta economical-political stuff.

Later

To Monkey: I stated in an earlier thread that at one point I had CTP boxed up and put in my closet, but I came here and found CD's mod. It greatly helped, and once I realized how extensively CTP could be modified, I realized we had an opportunity we had never had before: To build a strategy game almost from the ground up. Imo, the work that has been done *since* CD's mod has improved the game by leaps and bounds.

About SMAC: Look inside the AI cities- you'll see the same ineptitude that is in civ II. There is no co-ordination between the settlers and the cities, the improvements they build are stupid choices, a lot of their force disposition is the same way. If you could look at the source code for SMAC, I bet at least 90% at the AI routines are copied from civ ii. It's sad, because the effort put into the storyline, improvements, Planet and all that is very, very impressive. But you strip away the few added features, and it's just civ ii with new graphics, and the things from MOO2 I mentioned earlier. CTP out of the box wasn't any better, but it is now with the work the people here have done on it, and it just keeps getting better.
CTP's interface takes time to get used to, and could probably be improved, but a smooth interface don't mean beans if the AI is so incompetent it's insulting, and that's what civ II's became after I knew enough to evaluate it throughly.

CTP on the under hand is much more unstable on my system. The crashes are not as bad as some people have had but I've had a couple of crashes in mid game and a few annoying invalid save games which refused to load... grrrr... other than that if all goes well i have a pretty good time playing CTP...

WesW>

quote:

---

To build a strategy game almost from the ground up.

---

I have to agree with you, the mod's make the game playable and for some people very enjoyable. But that is the crux of CTP.

The customization is a HUGE bonus. The fact that it is necessary is an even bigger drawback. The fact that I have to make modifications of use other gamers mods to make the game playable is WRONG. My paychecks do NOT say Activision on them.

I do not know if you where on the forums when CTP was first released. Activision reps posted that they felt that the game was balanced (perhaps true) and realistic (blatently false)

They had (rather humerous) explanations on why phalanx can kill jets. ("The pilots got tired" any actual quote) and similary justification of the infamous tank vs. phalanx debate.

Now, the fact that many of the problems with CTP - AI, Diplomacy are finally being addressed 6 months after released is great, but in my mind TOTALLY unacceptable. So sure the game has come a long way, but it has been dedicated gamers not Activison doing that. Consequently, I will not give any more of my money or time to Activision.

This is not to say that there are some good ideas (2 primary - v level support and decent unconventional unit) that the boys at Firaxis should explore.

I play it at 640-480 resolution I think, because I only have a 15 inch monitor, my four meg 3D accelerator will only tolerate a good frame rate(even as the alien) at that resolution because once you go up to higher resolutions the amount of memory you have in your video card becomes important. At higher resolutions the textures need to be swapped out of the memory more often so you will start to get choppy frame rates. I also wont play multiplayer with AVP because I get really bad frame rates and I dont think it's my system... I've heard the multiplayer code for AVP aint that hot.

RAM is the biggest thing with CTP, but not video card memory. If you were here a few months ago, you would have read some threads which discusses the importance of RAM to CTP. I'd say you need about 96MB and over to enjoy CTP to its fullest. Again its the virtual swaps that the hard disk has to do that slows down a game.

Its really amazing how some people think that wacking on the latest 3d accelrator card or buying the latest CPU will increase their system speed. It will to some extent but remember this: Your system will only run as fast as the slowest component can handle. If you got a slow hard drive then all your components are always waiting for it. That's why increasing RAM is always the first upgrade choice you should consider (well before the ridiculous RAM shortage anyway) because having more RAM means your system dont have to access hard disk as much.

Utrecht>

No, I wasn't around here when it first came out, and it sounds (what those reps were saying) like a bunch of bulls**t, albeit somewhat funny. I've heard about this "Phalanx vs Tanks" bit (although never experienced it because I just couldn't play with ratios that absurd). That's hilarious, though. I dug this out of the other thread because I just cracked up reading it--here it is again, by

The Carpeted Man

quote:

---

"Bring out your spears men!"
"But sir aren't those tanks much stronger than us?"
"We've got to defend our territory from
those metallic machines!!!!
Come on now with our advanced spear making process we can penetrate even the most strongest armor!"
"But but"
"No but's here, I SAID LIFT UP YOUR SPEARS AND DEFEND!, I've done it many times before,
its easy once you get the hang of it"

---

LOL!
Oh, I don't care if that doesn't belong in this thread, it's just too funny. Gets me every time.

Hey, I'm not defending Activision or Firaxis or Coagulation LTD or whoever owns this game.
I don't work for them and couldn't care about any of that. But I agree that it shouldn't be up to us to make it better.
But it's up to you where you spend your money.
I'm just trying to conduct a simple questionaire here and perhaps find some people who can say something they like about the game, since (in my humble opinion) there's been quite enough trashing it, whining, and grumbling. Yes, this is not right and that could be better, we know all that, and if it's up to us or not, we're trying to fix some of those things.

So, once again, for anyone new to this thread thinking it's a debate about morality, or Activision/Firaxis politics, or anything else but:
CTP:

quote:

---

1. Best Civ game?

2. Best TBS?

3. If you don't have an opinion about either or don't think it's in 1 or 2, what's something you like about CTP?

(And I'll add one--thanks Monkey.)

4. Do you think SMAC is part of the Civ series?--why or why not?

---

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"Stimpy...YOU...EEEEDDDDDEEEEEIIIOOTTT!!!"--Ren.

"Verrosten est X-beine das Fahrbar Bliken Obszon
Abgabepflichtighoffenburger!?!?!?!"

I will confess I had no disire to play multiplayer or do extensive scenerio work, so problems in these areas were neglected.

In my opinion I got my money's worth way before trying out CD's mod, and then later the Apolyton Pack Mod. I consider these mods to be great enhancements, but not requirements. I think if you got to the point where you really felt you required CD's changes, you have played the game at least twice all the way through, probably 2 weeks or more of time and have discovered some imbalance. On a cost per hour of play basis, do you get more for your money from other games?

I have never lost a tank, fighter, or bomber to a phalanx.

Hey, good points there. Got me thinking: I played CTP for a while before finding this site, and now that I think of it, I can't say that I was really unimpressed; I still liked it, maybe not as much as Civ2, but I like it. Only one crash I can recall.
But when I installed CD's mod and a few others, what a difference. So I would tend to agree that it's not required (i.e. necessary), but I wouldn't want to go back to just-outta-the-box play...maybe I'm spoiled

Cost-per-hour-of-play...? I'd say I've already gotten my money's worth out of CTP. As for other games I own...hmmm...I don't think I can truely say that (except for Civ2 (which was $75), NHL 99(which was $69), and Tomb Raider II($20, pawn shop) on the Playstation--I've gotten my $ of those and more). But PC games...AvP($70), not yet. Mech 3($59)...almost: it wasn't that expensive. The other ones, no. But I'd probably have to look at how much I've played all of them compared to CTP.
Interesting way to look at it.

quote:

---

when you release a game there shouldn't be any bugs in it ,I think.whenever I build wonder it crashes ,...so I can't even play the game,the only units I've seen in the game are the phalanx and the warroir and that's about it. thge game's just a total waste of money.

---

Holy crap. You got a crash whenever you build a wonder? That's not right--sounds like you have some file problems there.
As for releasing the game without bugs, hey, I totally agree with you. But like I was saying before, that's just how it is these days--with almost any new game released. In an ideal world, sure, but ours is not ideal perhaps.

But you really might want to write down exactly what's wrong--what errors you get, what they say, what happens when you do what???--because that's just ridiculous and shouldn't be happening. If my game was doing that, I'd break in it half (well, I'd ask for some advice first ). Geez, I don't blame ya for not liking it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by freakske on 11-01-1999 04:53 AM
it sucks because of the bugs,when you release a game there shouldn't be any bugs in it ,I think.whenever I build wonder it crashes ,...so I can't even play the game,the only units I've seen in the game are the phalanx and the warroir and that's about it. thge game's just a total waste of money.

---

I have to agree with Nordicus, something is really screwed up, but i don't think it is the game. You may have a driver problem. You should take a look at activision support page and send a bug report. I had a similar problem where the game would crash if i tried to conquer a city with marines (from a ship) Activision support claimed I had a video-driver problem. They were right, after i upgraded the video driver the problem disappeared. I have never seen other crashes.

My votes :
1: CTP is the best civ-game I've played. I will never play civII again. I tried the SMAC-demo and didn't like it, it looked to much like civII.

Driver problem, huh? For your video card?

So, you didn't like SMAC either, huh? A lot of people have said that it's a lot like Civ2. I never touched the demo, just looked at the box in the store--seemed to have pretty much Civ2-type graphics, I thought. What's some of the other similarites?

And thanks for the vote

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"Stimpy...YOU...EEEEDDDDDEEEEEIIIOOTTT!!!"--Ren.

"Ich Wollen Antreffen Das Heilmittel!!!"

"I SHALL FIND THE CURE!!!"--Nordicus, about WAIS (Wandering AI Syndrome).

"Like Wes said...."

i don't want to be rude here but this sounds like a classic case of "civ2 paralysis" where the player is unable to play civilization anyway other than the way civ2 had made it.

quote:

---

I still haven't figured out the whole thing with trade and caravans which was super easy on Civ II.

---

Caravans super easy on civ2? Definitely not! You've got to manually move those camels from place to place. In ctp all you do is build a caravan and try and build up monopolies in cities. Ah... I see you asking but what the hell is a monopoly. Play the tutorial and find out! CTP is not civ2... it's civilization but it's not civ2. It's an entirely different game.

quote:

---

With CTP, I still can't figure out what tech I need in order to get my settlers to build roads for crissake.

---

This proves that you obviously havent played enough CTP to make any judgement. Again play the tutorial and find out.

quote:

---

With CTP, I can never figure out if I've got units that need to be moved.

---

Sounds like you still have version 1.0 of the game. Autocentering was fixed in version 1.1. get version 1.2.

quote:

---

With Civ II I understood exactly which technology I needed in order to get to the next advance.

---

I'm interpreting this two ways. One, you want the exact tech tree as civ2... you got to be joking right? Defeats the purpose of buying a new game right? If you wanted something that is exactly the same as civ2 then why did you buy CTP? Why not just stick with good old civ2?

Two, it is hard to tell which tech lead to which because there is no advisor which tells you exactly which tech to research to get to your goal. Ok i admit the tech tree is hard to learn at first but I've got a few suggestions. 1)Pull out your tech tree map... that's what it was made for. 2)Use the great lirary often. You can trace back the tech tree just by clicking on the appropriate branches of the tech. Very useful IMO.

quote:

---

Sorry, but I have given it several tries and I still kinda hate it and I have to agree with Alexander's horse that it just sucks.

---

Don't take AH's word like it's the bible. From what i know the horse doesn't even have CTP anymore and I don't think he's even played it enough to make a definite conclusion on the state of CTP. He's just here to attract attention because he couldn't find enough attention in the OT forum. If you've read some of his stuff in OT you'd know what I was talking about. Of course AH will put up a defense by saying he's made some contributions to the civ3 threads and yes I will acknowledge that but that is still no excuse for downing a game he knows next to nothing about. Please don't be another Alexander Horse... if you still don't like it then it's your personal opinion... please don't try to ram that personal opinion down other people's throat.

Listen to Monkey and try it again. And again if necessary. It will be well worth it.

I was brought up on classic Civ (Civ1, Civ2) also. When I first got CTP, I thought it was terrible. I couldn't even get past the interface. I didn't understand what was going on. I didn't understand trade and heaven forbide, PW. What the heck is this PW thing anyway. SO I threw it on the shelf. Well, I just couldn't keep playing Civ2. I came here to Apolyton and started checking out the forums. (Not near as much info then as there is now.) I thought I'd give it another shot. Guess what? I still didn't get it and I still couldn't get past that @#$@#$ interface. On to the shelf again but I kept cruising Apolyton. People were talking about all this cool stuff and I wanted in on it. So, again, off the shelf. This time it stayed on my computer. And hasn't left since. It wasn't the easiest thing but slowly I picked up on the interface, then the techs, then the trade & PW. Eventually, I even got over my 'This isn't Civ2 so I just won't like it' attitude. I'm a tried and true CTPer now. It is in my blood and I wouldn't give it up for anything now. Keep at it and don't just give up.

How can this game be that much fun of it takes so much effort to get into it. For me games are fun not work. I have a job for that.

Additionally, how good of a game can it be if it is necessary to install Custom mods to "fix" game balance issues that the manufactures steadfastly denies exist.............

O, excuse the sarcasm, but I found that amusing. And I'm a smartass, so whatta ya gonna do....
"How can this game be that much fun..." Well, I don't know. I don't play the game so that I can laugh hysterically for hours on end, I play it to be challenged, to build a nation, take over a few others, etc...that's me. I think that's fun...some people consider beating an old lady with a stick fun--I am not one of them. Some think...whatever.
I guess fun means different things to different people.
I dunno, some people seem to be mad at the company and take it out on the game. And some think that's fun. O I don't know.

You seem to want convincing. I can't convince you that it's fun, so I'm not going to try. It just is or isn't. I think it's personal preference. And I don't think you're *whatever* if you don't like it. Hey, that's okay. I don't like apples. An apple-lover is gonna think that's weird. So be it.

Yeah, the tutorial does get into everything, I agree.

Later.

SMAC - Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

It is a sci-fi civ game. The original idea was it took over where Civ2 left off when you landed your spacecraft on Alpha Centauri. This is another good game which I would suggest trying. It has some pretty cool points also and the diplomacy can't be beat. But then again, I like them all. Hope you find what your looking for.

But just in case

quote:

---

Okay, fellow Civers.
We've heard the complaints, know about the bugs, the *ahem* reasoning about how it's the 'worst' game of all-time, but this is question here: Is it the best Civilization, or Turn-Based-Strategy, game ever?

1. Best Civ game?

2. Best TBS?

3. If you don't have an opinion about either or don't think it's in 1 or 2, what's something you like about CTP?

What do you think?

---

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"Stimpy...YOU...EEEEDDDDDEEEEEIIIOOTTT!!!"--Ren.

"Ich Wollen Antreffen Das Heilmittel!!!"

"I SHALL FIND THE CURE!!!"--Nordicus, about WAIS (Wandering AI Syndrome).

"Like Wes said...."

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"Ich Wollen Antreffen Das Heilmittel!!!"

"I SHALL FIND THE CURE!!!"--me.

"Something"--Someone.

On top of that this “open editing” Is a laugh a minute. Is the game really that bad that you have to edit it to work in a normal way. I am reminded of Comand and conquer red alert which was very open ended. I changed a hell of a lot in that game to make it more fun/different/exciting. The game was good the first time out of the box and I didn’t have to edit a thing. And you talk to bongo about driver incompatibilities?
Shouldn’t a game come with the latest drivers to ensure that it works when you play it.

Heres my question to you. If you were to buy a game now (CTP) , in 1996 (CIV II) or in 1991 (CIV I) based on what other games at to offer at their respective times what would you choose?

MY vote goes straight to CIV.

If you want talk about this in terms of options, what you can do etc, I would say Yes.

Is it the greatest Civ game in terms of pure enjoyment for me? No - the original Civ is the winner by far on that account

2. Is it the greatest TBS game ever?

quote:

---

Civ2 had the same problem with wandering, for example

---

Nordicus, perhaps no one has told you this, but SMAC has borders! Other untils wandering into your territory is gone! SMAC also has 3d terrain (once you play it, you'll never want to go back to boring 2d terrain), which directly impacts gameplay (with rainfall for farmland and hight for energy). SMAC also has a wonderful diplomatic model, with exchange of cities. Also the Social Engineering model is amazing! You basically pick your government, economy, value and future model as you gain tech for them. You have to make choices between (for example) a Democratic, Free-Market, Power-based, Eudimonia future society, vs. a Police-State, Planned Economy, Green-based, Mind-Control future society. Added to a great story (and actual story!), and SMAC is amazing. Try it out!

quote:

---

(with rainfall for farmland and hight for energy). SMAC also has a wonderful diplomatic model, with exchange of cities.

---

While the rainfall is news to me but sounds interesting, this celestial diplomacy I keep hearing about seems to be the only saving grace of the game, the only thing to which people cling--this and the sci-fi atmousphere I have heard about--otherwise, it'd be, IMHO, another TOT.

However, I must refrain from trashing the game, never having played it, and I'm certainly not going to try to insult people who play it--the above are only my opinions. I have two friends who cannot fathom why insist on playing CTP when I have "much better" games lying around...and that's just it--I think CTP is much better than those games. They obviously don't.

quote:

---

Added to a great story (and actual story!), and SMAC is amazing. Try it out!

---

But, Imran, then I'd be one of those people who played SMAC!
Seriously, that would be fair, yet it would be comparable to me going back to my Playstation. Progress, buddy! If you drive a 1998 Nissan, do you park it and buy a 1979 Datsun!?
Okay, a little sarcastic there, but the point is: I probably won't try it for the same reason I no longer play Civ2...it's old, irritating, and I like CTP now. Civ2 (which I played on my Sony Playstation) was a great game, IMO--I played it for months and months, and was quite addicted to it...and the same for the original Civ (which I played on SNES). But I don't play Super Nintendo any longer, and I very rarely take out the Playstation now. Paradoxically, I like Earth-bound games, and I'm not a big fan of space stuff (unless its AvP).

Anyway, enough rambling. Thanks for the comments (BTW, have you ever played CTP?).

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

"Why sell a man what he wants? Sell 'em what he doesn't need, pretend he's got eight legs and two stomachs and money to burn. It's wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!"--"Allie Fox."

"Remember Salzburg!"