quote: Originally posted by Russell on 05-19-2001 03:11 AMDemocracy has got more corrupt, not less. Democracy means freedom, which includes the freedom to be a lying, manipulative cheat apparently. [This message has been edited by Russell (edited May 19, 2001).]

Aparrently you have not lived or heard stories about dictatorships, to some extend, communist rule, not to mention medieval monarchies.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-19-2001 01:52 PM Aparrently you have not lived or heard stories about dictatorships, to some extend, communist rule, not to mention medieval monarchies.

I am not saying that democracy is more corrupt than communism or dictatorships etc; what I am saying is that democracy still has more than its fair share of corruption and the game is unrealistic when it says that when you have a democratic government, there is no more corruption. From the point of view of realism (since this is what this thread is about), the corruption should still be there but perhaps implemented in a different way.

Perhaps when you first change to democracy there is virtually no corruption - it is cleaned out. But it begins to rise over time. However this can be counteracted by keeping spies in your cities which not only help prevent enemy espionage as has been their previous function but also which do "internal investigations" and every now and then some corruption is exposed in the city and the crime rate drops for a while. Every exposure also uses up one spy. If there are no spies in the city then crime will just keep on rising. If there is more than one spy, then it will increase the chance of exposing crime but the law of diminishing returns will apply for each extra spy.

quote: Originally posted by Russell on 05-19-2001 09:22 PM I am not saying that democracy is more corrupt than communism or dictatorships etc; what I am saying is that democracy still has more than its fair share of corruption and the game is unrealistic when it says that when you have a democratic government, there is no more corruption.

Agreed.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-20-2001 10:34 AM But you gotta love democracy in civ 2. All these money

Yes, it's almost too easy. It's just that this thread is titled The Realists List so I'm trying to be realistic about it.

This isn't to say that democracy is flawed, but only that the combination of a democratic government and a capitalist economy is. The Founding Fathers saw the state as playing the role of a class mediator, in protecting the minority capitalists from the majority proletariat, and protecting the proletariat from abuse. However, corruption gives the state a role of class dominance, so that the agendas of the minority capitalists may be more important than the opinions of the majority proletariat.

A primary reason why America hasn't fundamentally changed to address this issue is the following. World War II brought a fear of the right (the Nazis), and the Cold War brought a fear of the left (the Soviets). After witnessing the tragic consequences of other forms of political economy, we are scared to do anything ourselves. In fact, without the economic booms of WWII and the Cold War, it's likely that fundamental change would indeed have ocurred in the US.

Very small??