quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 05-12-2001 07:11 AM I just hope that they follow this up by tweaking weaker (but still aggressive) AI-civs to concentrate much more on pillagin instead of fruitless HP citywall-banging. They can do much more damage this way.

You didn't play Smac, did you? That's exactly what they decided to make the AI do there. It would bring up a stack of 20-30 troops, then move them around pillaging while my bases were defended solely by 1-1-1 scout infantry. Very bad idea, the AI should attack when it has massed troops.

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast on 05-11-2001 11:35 PM The one thing that I was hoping for during those munte-and-a-half long slide loads. waiting, waiting, will they do it? DANG! Didn't happen. I was hoping they'd finish the Pyramids and see it on the map. Either they didn't finish them, or wonders don't appear on the main map. Dang...

I would like to see that too, as well as the temple (and any other improvements). In short I'm hoping for more uniqueness in appearance among cities, especially in the modern age where in Civ2 they all look exactly the same depending on size (and it's so easy to make any city large enough to get the biggest city graphic). Even large modern cities in the real world aren't all generic skyscrapers. Look at New York vs Boston vs London vs Kuala Lumpur vs Hong Kong vs Tokyo vs Sydney... etc. Simiarity but not identity. I also hope certain wonders can be built only in certain locations... Lighthouse only in a coastal city, Hoover Dam in a city by a river, etc.

I like the colonies, but I would like it better if they had the potential to develop into real cities in their own right, like New York (New Amsterdam), Carthage, etc. At least if the colony is far enough away, unlike in the example.

Also, I wonder what it means to have a border that extends into the sea, as in the example of Rome? Do you control that area of the sea, too? That would be nice. Maybe you could even built a harbor/port even though the city is slightly inland, like Rome (Ostia), Athens (Piraeus), Los Angeles (Port of LA/Long Beach).

Also I notice that the river is narrower in some places, wider in others. I wonder if this has anything to do with navigability of the river? I really hope so. I want deep-water river ports which ocean-going ships can access! (And canoes or something that can't go in the ocean for smaller rivers.) I want to build an inland port city like Manaus!

Lastly, about foreign nationals living in your city. Their revolting or not should not depend only on culture, but on military might and perhaps other factors as well. Think of Genghis Khan -- he'd slaughter everyone in a conquered if they dared disobey (till Mongol military might started to collapse). Perhaps you should have the option of killing all natives in a city, though this would penalize your culture rating and the other civs' attitudes toward you.

Anyway, thank you Dan and Firaxis for the update! Looking good!

Also, you still haven't explained how do unique civs work...

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov on 05-12-2001 12:27 PM Colonies must be connected with road to one's city. So does it means no colonies overseas?? And how about resources that are found in the sea (like whales)?

I assume overseas colonies will require a port in the receiving city, and that the colony is assumed to have a port. Inland colonies will require a road connected to the port colony.

Now all they need to do is specify what they're doing with espionage, let us know how customizable the game is (including # of civs), and go into detail about how combat will work- especially aerial combat & stacking.

Dan: If a colony requires a road to work, can you build your own road to a foreign colony, destroy their road, and steal the resource?

Also, they said that overseas colonies will work with harbors.

It would make the map look nicer, cleaner, and less obviously tiled. The shield/food marks really throw the symmetry in your face.

I know, this is probably "test" landscape and the final will look much better. Just general griping.

The resource system looks amazing!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 05-12-2001 05:03 PM You know, one of the best things in the shot was the iron that popped up when you discoved iron working. ... And did anyone yet comment on the Legion? Special Unit of the Romans? I thought that was going to raise an uproar?

Not only an uproar, it might also raise gameplay issues. Will we find out that in every second game the Romans won´t have access to iron, so they won´t be able to build legions unless a kindly soul supplies them with iron to help them conquer the world?

quote: These colonides look like a nice idea, the hole game does anyway. I didn't get it though: How does one build a colony? With a worker? With colonist? Wouldn't that be too expencive? Why should I build just a colony were I could build a city? Dan? Anyone?

Workers can build colonies as an action. It won't cost you population.
Cheaper and faster than building a city.

quote: Originally posted by Simpson II on 05-12-2001 12:14 PM You didn't play Smac, did you? That's exactly what they decided to make the AI do there. It would bring up a stack of 20-30 troops, then move them around pillaging while my bases were defended solely by 1-1-1 scout infantry. Very bad idea, the AI should attack when it has massed troops.

Well, obviously the AI must do reoccuring checkups on what types & quantitys of fortified units the HP-empire have, before it decides what strategy to follow. That goes without saying, dont you think.

Call it "AI cheating" or whatever, I dont care - the burden of inferior tactical overview still lays heavily on the AI anyway. Infact, I see it as an re-balancing 100% fair AI-benefit to at least give it free info-access about city-guarding HP-units (without spy-unit - only HP must use spy) - all in the name of overal better gameplay and AI-resistance

Thanks for your answers, and yet another previously unrevealed part about gameplay (fortresses and ZOC)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 05-12-2001 05:03 PM You know, one of the best things in the shot was the iron that popped up when you discoved iron working. This will be cooler than I first imagined. Think, what you think is a worthless city, suddenly becomes the most powerful city in the world after oil is discovered there.

Erk...I agree with Imran...*Theben has stroke*

1) Can the colony be upgraded to a city? Can it grow into one (I know, already asked)? Will placing a settler (likely) or another worker (maybe) upgrade it?

2) Can colonies generate borders? What about fortresses? Are there different levels or types of fortresses?

3) You mentioned that borders are separate from "workable tiles", but does terrain have to be within your city's border in order to work it?

4) What does that peace flag represent? Is it an on-screen indicator of a city in We Love the...Day? Will it only turn on when the city is celebrating or will it (or something else) appear when current indicators (growth, etc) will cause the city to celebrate the following turn? Is there one for civil disturbance?

5) With all the possible luxury resources, it seems that keeping a city happy should be easy. Cn you hint to what are some of the balancing factors?

6) I assume that there is a "patrol" or "guard" command for units. Will it be possible to assign a unit to "patrol" along an entire given trade route (i.e., be the "escort", either overseas or within the your borders on land)?

quote: Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS on 05-12-2001 09:37 PM Workers are increasingly becoming mobile "population points", and building colonies is one of their more spectacular abilities.

I see that you guys have killed several birds with one stone here. Workers and settlers can therefore acts as optional war-refugees (or deliberate peacetime pop-transferrings, for that matter). Then any of your border-cities is likely to be irretrievable conquered; you rush-build a worker/settler and move it away somewhat just in case (replacing them perhaps with incoming defenders from other cities) - and if that border-city nevertheless gets conquered, you continue moving these refugees over to a safe city, thus strengthening that city in the process.

quote: Unlike terrain improvements, colonies consume the worker, much like a city consumes the settler. You don't get the worker back if your territory merges with the colony

Good! I dont want to regain that worker, because that would mean one step backwards appeasing ICS.

quote: In this game you need to defend your TERRITORY, not just your cities, or you will be swiftly punished. I find myself building hillside fortresses more in this game than Civ2/SMAC et al. One advanage of this terrain improvement is the zone of control it gives units normally without one (read: most ancient and middle ages units). But it's their ability to protect vital trade roads, colonies, and goods that makes them invaluable.

quote: I noticed that most of the flat land types had green and grey marks on them (to delineate production, ala civ2). But they don't look that great. Wouldn't it be better to simply say (in the manual) that plains produce I 1 shield, grassland 1shield+1food, and then have a special fertile (black earth?) symbol for those especially rich grasslands that produce 2 food? It would make the map look nicer, cleaner, and less obviously tiled. The shield/food marks really throw the symmetry in your face.

A good point by Krypter. It really is not necessary to include those shield-denoting blobs...perhaps you could go down the Civ II road, and include shield blobs only on terrain where they are 'optional', like Grassland/Grassland shield.

Will a zoom function be included, like in Civ II? I found I needed to use a zoom level different to the default view, so it'd be nice to see the feature available in Civ III.

I must add my whinge to the general cacophony of complaint about unique civs and civ-specific units. PLEASE KEEP THEM OUT! Would America have produced the F-15 if they had started off in central Asia under a Parliamentary Monarchy? No!

question: What happens if your city swallows up the colony like rome did to the iron colony, and then something happens like sabatoge or nuclear weapons or famine or whatever, and the city borders become smaller. Is the colony lost? it doesnt seem like it should be

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-11-2001 06:15 PM If cities are going to have that huge fixed wall size, please fill the inside with tightly packed hovels until the improvement buildings displace them. It looks more like a lightly populated scout camp with all that green space inside the walls than a bustling hive of commerce

I agree: There should be some empty spaces (greens, market squares, etc.), but if the city was big enough to have the wall enclose that large an area, it should be a lot 'fuller' inside.

quote: Originally posted by Theben on 05-13-2001 04:13 AM I keep forgetting I have questions for Firaxis: 1) Can the colony be upgraded to a city? Can it grow into one (I know, already asked)? Will placing a settler (likely) or another worker (maybe) upgrade it? 2) Can colonies generate borders? What about fortresses? Are there different levels or types of fortresses? 3) You mentioned that borders are separate from "workable tiles", but does terrain have to be within your city's border in order to work it? 4) What does that peace flag represent? Is it an on-screen indicator of a city in We Love the...Day? Will it only turn on when the city is celebrating or will it (or something else) appear when current indicators (growth, etc) will cause the city to celebrate the following turn? Is there one for civil disturbance? 5) With all the possible luxury resources, it seems that keeping a city happy should be easy. Cn you hint to what are some of the balancing factors? 6) I assume that there is a "patrol" or "guard" command for units. Will it be possible to assign a unit to "patrol" along an entire given trade route (i.e., be the "escort", either overseas or within the your borders on land)? Any & all answers greatly appreciated!

This what I know to help answer your questions!!!

1) The answer is no, a colony can't be upgraded to a city. It is a colony forever until it get engulfed by the city borders.

2) Colonies can't generate borders, they are just a colony so there is no culture in that colony at all. Fortresses can't generate borders either, they are just there to have fortified units!

3) Yes, the terrain needs to be in your cities borders to work it, otherwise you would have to build a colony to trade or use that resource.

4) All that Firaxis mentioned was that that was programmer art, and that they would explain the meaning of it at a later time.

5) Again, Firaxis will go in depth with that at a later time, but they did say that the more of that luxury that you have the happier your city will be. It will also influence your culure that will help expand your borders!

6) I don't think that they ever said anything about that, but I think that that would be cool if you could do that! We will just have to wait!

I have a question though leading off number 6, is if you can see the luxuries or resources move over the trade routes to there destination, just like in CTP. I am just curious if that would happen.