So, what's your 'civ list'? If we ignore all the info of what civs will be in that Firaxis has given us, mine would be:

Americans
Germans
French
Russians
Mayas (replacing Aztecs as 'the' Native American civilization.)
Ethiopians (replacing Zulus as 'the' African civilization.)
Egyptians
Chinese
Indians
Japanese
Mongols
English
Romans
Greek
Babylonians
Arabs

Americans
Inca (they were a lot bigger than Aztec + mayas together)
English
French
German
Russian
Mongols
Indians
Chinese
Japanses
Zulus
Egyptians
Romans
Greeks
Sioux
Babylonians

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 04-28-2001 04:40 PM Why not change "retard" to instead? One thing I like with this forum is the general absence of name-calling. Lets keep it that way, shall we.

I totally agree. Change it NOW!

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- SilverDragon, scourge of the western skies

Still a little euro-heavy for my tastes, maybe the following instead -

Mister Pleasant, you say that's it's to Euro-heavy. But you just have to admit that European culture is the base of the current society. Then of course, there were some South-american en Asian civ's, but not many.
I don't like your European-Union idea, as 'Europe' is not one culture. It's very diverse.
In fact, if we are objective, the US shoudn't be included at all! The US is no real 'civilization'. But of course, we have to please everyone.

Anyway, my list would be to include 25 civilizations to choose from, not 16.

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 04-28-2001 06:43 PM I agree. One shouldnt garble historic/present day realities, just because 19-century colonialism and 2 major wars, perhaps have made it "politically incorrect" to emphasize the huge impact that european culture has brought about - mainly from the renaissance and forwards, but also (dont forget) from ancient Roman and Greek cultures. Whether one likes it or not, the selection of civs should be a little "Euro-heavy", I think. Its only fair.

But all of that is the result of Geographical and Geobiological factors. Civ is supposed be able to start any civilization anywhere, so it's wrong to penalise the Mali just beacuse they happened to start in a contitent with a north-south axis, with no domesticable species of animals and very few plants, with desert to the north and jungle to the south, and some 3000 years after the fertile crecent civilizations.

My choices:

Americans
British
Russians
Mongols
Chinese
Spanish
Vikings
Incas
Aztecs
Mali
Kush
Egyptians
Austronesians
Babylonians
Arabs
Magyars

I think Zulus are ok as the (South) Africans.

For America, I'd say Aztecs or Incas.

I think it's important to have civs that are imediatly recognised (even if they are not the most important - who will judge that anyway ) and are the most famous in order to capture the imagination of everyone and increase the sales.

I'd like to see again the mongols because the face of a pissed off Ghenkis Ghan always made me laugh in civ I

Spain should be in too I think. I don't wanna have frigates if I can't play spanish

Big no no to a European Union. You'd eliminate some «heavy» civs.
Edit: plus you'd put us Greeks and Italians in a dilema: should we choose European Union and reaffirm our conviction to european integration or chose Greeks or Romans??? We only have one country

The Estonians should be the leader of the European Union because they're SO powerful and have SUCH a large country.

Maybe the emphasis on European civilizations is not so bad. After all, if it were not for the pillaging, massacres, and slavery in North America, I might not be in Iowa, but in Germany today.

See the wonderful progress Europeans bring wherever they go??

other than that, the ideas are good

quote: Originally posted by MrFun on 04-29-2001 12:35 AM Paiktis -- isn't it obvious?? The Estonians should be the leader of the European Union because they're SO powerful and have SUCH a large country.

I have nothing against the mighty Estonians but they are not a member of the European Union.

So it has to be Greece

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that leaves 5 more to define.
my guesses are:

Russia (this is a shoe in, so to speak)
Native American (may be defined by any one tribal name, e.g. Sioux)
Aztec, Incans, or Myans -only one will make it. (whichever was a more influential civilization. if i knew more history on them, i would pick, but i don't know, so i can't pick)
Greeks
Spain

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these are two i would like to see in the game due to their historical signifigance, but i don't believe either have made the cut:

Well rather than just giving wish lists (cause i'd love to see the Magyars/Hungarians) lets try to guess which 16 would make sense.

Factors for civ selection would have to include the following:
-Historical significance and power.
-Geographic disbursment. (assuming world map)
-Recognizability from a Western point of view.
-Quality of land for start. (assuming world map)

So from what we know or have guessed:

Chinese
Egyptians
Americans
Romans
Indians
Germany
English
Zulu
Vikings
Japanese

And those all fit the above criteria and make sense.

So 6 more. As previously mentioned France and Russia are shoe ins.

So 4 more. Need some more in the Americas. I'd pick Inca and Aztec. While the typical American view point is to give a civ to the "Native Americans" i don't think any civ there really had anything big or powerful enough to be on par with some of the other notables. It'd be like picking the Aborigines in Australia. But considering this game is made by Americans, and we are totally ethno-centric, hehe, i bet a Native American civ will be in. Probably out west to balance out the Americans, so probably Sioux like before. Though i think Aztec and Inca would be much better picks.

So 2 more. Nothing in the Mid-East yet, the craddle of civilization. If they follow previous trends it'll be Babylonian or something, but i deffinatly think Arabs should be the pick. They have had great power, good name recognition. Only problem is that Saudi Arabia is all desert, if played on a world map this unbalances the Arab player alot, so i dunno. Though with the additions of real trade goods there is alot of oil which is a great plus for the region historically and in the game, so i bet Arabs are in.

So 1 more. Options from the other games that people have mentioned are Spain, Greeks, Mongolians. Personally i doubt they'll pick Spain again. I think a lot of the additions in civ 2 were just because of the 2 scenarios that were included. Spain was needed for the ww2 scenario so that was a factor in putting them in. Same with the Celts to serve as a Barbarian type civ in the Rome scenario. But Celts are certainly out of place with the other civs selected. So since Spain is stuck on a small pennisula in an already crowded area, blocked in easily by France or someone else, i imagine Spain is out. Which leaves Greeks and Mongolians. Which creates a dilema. I can't imagine either being left out. Both fit all the criteria perfectly, only minus is for Greece because they are already on a crowded continent, but i couldn't concieve of them leaving out Greece. Especially with a war game like this the most recognizable and feared warriors in history, the Mongols couldn't possibly be left out. Though again, the seed of culture in Europe, the Greeks, and spawn of another fearsome conquerer, Alexander the Great couldn't possibly be left out either. Both again were around since the beginning. So I imagine both are in.

So -1 now. Ummm, how is this possible? Grrr. Possible answer: can't possibly have only 16 civs!!

quote: Originally posted by Wittlich on 04-28-2001 06:53 PM I have a question .... Do we know for a FACT that we will only have 16 civilizations to choose from? Of course, I'm assuming that these would be the "major" civilizations. The number of "minor" civilizations which can be in play opens up a whole new issue

Well, I'm afraid not. I've lost my hopes with the last game preview: minor civs will simply be the new barbarians, that come with camp (tents towns).

Firaxis obviously chose more commercial modern civ names, while some of us proposed to start the game with few realistic old Civ, then let players decide to switch name at main events (e.g. Civ splits or main annexion).

USA can appear at a later point of game, if any player want to rename so, after surviving to early Civ raise and fall, and so can U.E. (may be after a long pact between Civs).

But no, they want Abrahm Lincoln and Mao chatting each other...
Why did I put so many hopes into a game? Because I'm a stupid dreamer, that is!

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 04-30-2001 06:49 AM I agree Adm. Naismith, Romans must be included.

ROTFL! You are too much involved to be fair!
BTW, just in case a Science Fiction MOD will be done, may I have Admiral Naismith (*) as one of Great Leaders?

Seriusly now, I still hope Firaxis will publish on its web site a new Civ every month, downloadable for free, for at least a year. It will cost something in term of Graphic Team resource but it will do wonders for people out here in term of Public Relation feeling. It'll pay back itself by sustaining the sell of original product box, IMHO.

I know, they underlined how easy will be to customize the game for dedicated fan but, simply spoken, fans usually have more good ideas than graphic ability and resources to realize MOD civ at the same level of commercial set.
It's a Firaxis product, they should provide a support (IMHO and from a marketing point of view), at least enhancing best fan "draft" MOD.

(*)OT note for not S.F. addicted: Adm.Naismith aka Miles Vorkosigan is a fictional character (a mercenary starship fleet admiral, a lord, a secret agent with serius phisical handicap and much more) described in great S.F. books written by Ms. Lois McMaster Bujold

1. The civ must have a rather large area under it's control (on their largest).

2. The civ must have control over their area (Djengis Khan didn't! Nor did Alexander the great, at first.)

3. The civ must be a economic, military or cultural power of significance.

4. The civ must have cities!

5. Two civs ruling the same area can't be in the same game at the same time (romans/Byzantines, Teotihuacans/Aztecs).

6. The list shouldn't just pick the most powerful civs to our standards, but be a significant civ in the time-period they excisted.

7. The civ should have survived more than one leader!

8. Playing a world map, the civs shouldn't start too close.

Following these criteria the list should be as follows (starting from the beginning of time):

The river-civilizations:
1. Egyptians (one of the earliest and most powerful civs!)
2. One of the civs of Mesopotamia, probably the babylonians or the assyrians (also one of the earliest and most powerful civs)
3. Indians of the indus valley (the civ of the indus valley, or India was one of the four earliest civs and, like the other four regions of the four, was one of the most important of pre-ancient times!)
4. Chinese (the last of the four first. Has been the longest lasting empire in the world!)

Ancient civs:
5. Greeks (This is a tricky one! The greeks didn't have an empire, they had a bunch of city-states, constantly at war with each other. AND Alexander the great was Macedon!) -I'm not sure if I want them in civ 3...
6. Persians (They had a vast empire, much more important civ than the greeks, in my opinion...)
7. Romans (The first really great empire in all aspects!!!)

Middle Ages:
8. Franks/Carolingians/French (Let's just call them the French, ok? Has made a huge impact on Europe since Charlemagne! -Must be in...)
9. Russians (In the late middle ages the russians started to expand their borders, but they were stopped by Djenghis Khan. Later they soon became one of the biggest empires the world has ever seen!)
10. Mongols (This is also a tricky one... Djenghis Khan conquered most of asia, but the empire became divided into three separate parts following his death. -These were still pretty large on their own, and all were mongol!)
11. English/British (Took over the italian city-states' hegemony as financial/industrial centers. Later became the most powerful empire in the world. -My easiest choice!)
12. Spanish (made a huge empire, but didn't really have that much control over it. Huge military power, did also have many possesions in europe)
13. Inca or Maya (great civs of the americas, not very advanced, but culturally rich and powerful in their region of the world. The spanish didn't kill them -disease did!)
14. Arabs (The belief in Allah made these nomads a fierce opposition and and gave them a huge empire!)

15. Germans (Their three reichs made their power almost impossible to defend against!)
16. Americans (Is the only remaining superpower today!)

As I said, I'm not sure if the greeks should be in. My choice would be the Turks (Remember the Ottomans?), Byzantines could also be a choice, but are really just the other half of the roman empire, so screw them!

quote: Originally posted by King Richard on 04-30-2001 10:53 PM As I said, I'm not sure if the greeks should be in. My choice would be the Turks (Remember the Ottomans?), Byzantines could also be a choice, but are really just the other half of the roman empire, so screw them!

I would leave Greeks in and only have either the Turks or Arabs. Very similar. Besides, no one wants to take away the site owner's country from the game.

They join the ranks as various barbarian tribes.
Don't do much, but, allways been around, allways will.