quote: Originally posted by Trachmir on 04-03-2001 08:48 PM One suggestion I heard was to allow Auto-Upgades, but to lower the units Health... thus the unit needs time to get back to full strength (i.e., retraining). However, I would hate for veteran units to lose that staus... afterall this represents experience not just technology.

it was me who gave that idea. A good example for this would be the American Civil War. The guns had been of a totally new class, but the tactics are way behind. Therefore, there were a lot of casualties. A unit should loose its veteran-ness when auto upgraded, thereby simulating a change in tactics.

Another suggestion for Auto-Upgrade, the Unit MUST be within your territory (or perhaps an allies) for it to occur.

Me, Tiberius and others debated about auto upgrade, but supposing Civ units similar to SMAC's, so we mentioning minor and major upgrade. We are supposing the extended level or experience used in SMAC (very green, green, hardened, veteran, commando, elite) will be used instead of Civ 2 two level (Green/Veteran)

Just a brief excerpt/summary of the linked thread:

Major upgrades

Upgrade command possibilities:
a) one unit-by-one (selected by "right click menu")
b) all units inside one-city/one-base (one kind of unit)
c) entire civ (one kind of unit)

Upgrade will cost money: I suggest to balance it starting from "rush build" cost for the difference from existing unit to new one.

Duration (turns unit will be unable to move/attack, similar to artillery rule):
1) One turn in military bases (inside cities or fortress/airport)
2) Two turns for the rest of the units (on the field)

After major upgrades units will lose 1 level of training/morale (maybe 2 outside mil. bases).

Alternatively, outside military base/cities the upgrades could take only one turn but be more expensive (+25%).

I underline once more it's all a playability problem: upgrading unit must be a decision balancing from keeping the experience level and building a unit from scratch, not really a free gift for early warmonger.

I agree that having an update feature for every civ is more fair.

Leonardo must shift from a Civ 2 Wonder to Civ III Science&Artist leader.

For instance if you have mapmaking your ships can move 2 squares, once you get seafaring they should be allowed to move 3 squares, and 4 squares with astronomy. With land based units i think that certain techs should modify the attack and defence ratings of units. For instance archers have 3 attack, and once you discover iron working all archers now have 4 attack.

quote: Originally posted by Wittlich on 04-04-2001 06:49 AM Frankly, I think that Leonardo's Workshop was too much of a bonus to the civ that builds it (even though it does eventually become obsolete).

NO, NO, NOOOO! Never mind how unrealistic it is, let's not get rid of Leo! OK, maybe the effect could be transferred to a great leader/artist, but something like that should still be included. Bear game play in mind: we're not all virtuosos who can notch up massive scores at deity level; and things like Leonardo's are, in my view, a great boost to the struggling 'average' player. In our desire for realism we shouldn't eliminate all convenient shortcuts!

As far as auto-upgrading is concerned, I think some of the suggestions above could be implemented in addition to retaining a special advantage for the civ that gets Leo.

In addition, even some easy-looking ones don't make any sense:

Consider musketeers to riflemen. Musketters, as well as having different weapons, have way different tactics... musketeers advance in large blocks due to the inaccuracy of their weapons, while riflemen use trenches, cover, etc. The style of war is so radically different that even trillions of dollars would not "upgrade" them all instantly. Styles of fighting evolve, they don't spontaneously happen.

As time progressed tactics were refined and weapons improoved and the rifleman was created, though it was not that much more powerful than a musketeer unit because the only difference by that time was the gun. So don't go saying that there is a big difference between musketeers and riflemen.

Anyway, I like the idea of auto-upgrades for some things like phalanx->pikemen, and musketeers->riflemen->marines and manual/costly upgrades for things like pikemen->musketeer, catapult->cannon and no upgrade for things like cavalry->armor. The way it could go is like this (=> is auto upgrade, and -> is manual)

I see no reason why units should be able, within the space of one year, to suddenly change tactics, strategies, and completely replace their entire arsenal with newer weapons, especially in the field! Really, having the units disband and re-building them is the best way to simulate this, and the best for gameplay, too. You won't suddenly lose the war because those cavalry you've had no problems with suddenly turn into tanks that crush your forces with ease.

Auto-upgrades, when instantaneous and in the field, are absurd as well as unrealistic. Don't pull that "realism" argument on me. You know perfectly well that we aren't talking about lifespans of people, but rather the integrity of the unit as a whole. "Modernizing" is a slow and resource intensive process that is not done in the course of a year or two and is not done while a unit is out in the field. Modernizing takes training, and training takes the barracks and facilities only a city or military base can provide. If a musketeer commander gets a shipment of rifles while scouting in the forests 500 miles away from home, he isn't going to suddenly know how to use, operate, care for, and properly utilize them!

In Civ turns lenght (from 50 to 1 year!), unit upgrade on the field aren't as silly as you think: during WWI and II new artillery, new tanks, new planes, new rifles where often shipped straight on the second line for just some days of practice!

But we can bypass this forcing any update inside military base (finally useful for me ) and cities, but please not disbanding and rebuilding units: it will messing the build queue for a sooo loooong time .
Don't forget officers and general ranks don't disappear with advances: how many generals learned to shift from horses and rifle to machine guns?

Of course some update can't be permitted for balancing reason (i.e. from horses to tanks), and still require disband/rebuild.

About second line units still used in real wars, well we don't have real second line duty in Civ! So we must find a viable update path.
In real life old planes shifted to training, logistic fly, reconnaince...
we skipped all these in Civ III, for good pratical reason IMO: Civ is not a Tactical wargame.