quote: I'd like the laboror, the tax-man, the scientist, the slave, and maybe an old fasioned form of the laboror early on called the craftsman.

Windborne, I too support "slave" specialist, because slavery had (and has) a relevant place in human history. Of course I'm not speaking of Slave as I red CTP introduced (special unit with super power), but "specialist" you add fighting wars (prisoner), by law or by trading.

About other specialist (e.g. craftsman), I think they fit better in a "Public Work" model, where you have all the available resources in city range (dynamic changing by city growth) automatically worked by your population, with specialist needed to fine tune main production.

So we can have farmer/fisherman for food, etc.

that's what 80% of the citizens in civ2 were!

i once made a thread about this but it seems it isn't in the related threads thread anymore

i would suggest following types:

farmers/miners ->create food, 'arrows' and shields
labourers -> manufacture the shields
servicemen -> transform arrows into luxury
upper class -> transform arrows into money and science

i'd suggest the following rules:
a)citizens have to be farmers until all people are fed either by their production or food trade routes
b)the ratio of labourers and servicemen to upper class must be at least 1:1 (not more upper class)
c)servicemen becoming increasingly more important in modern societies
d)if there are no more shields to manufacture or arrows to transform, people are considered unemployed and are automatically unhappy.
e) in industrial age a city can have as many industries as upper class citizens.
e.a) exception for communism: a city can have as many industries as they want but cost a lot of maintainance.

What I know about your profile is
-
REG: Aug 12 or 11,2000 or 1999 (cant remember exactly)
POSTS: 302-327

Field workers such as farmers/miners/fishers should be lumped togrther as just "field workers" and they repersent rural population.

Anyone who doesn't engage in basic resource gathering work will do their job in the city and called "specialists" and they represent urban population

"Labour idea" was suggested by monolith94 in resource thread and I like it very much.

Field workers are farmers,fishers and miners who repersent country folks(usually content people but quite disloyal to central authority)

Labours are factory workers,construction labourers who represent lower class or bottom of urban pop(usually dissatisfied,rebellious)

Taxmen are corporate business people and salarymen who should repersent middle class of urban pop(content people)

Scientists are teachers,professors,doctors and researchers who repersent upper class or top of urban pop(happy people)

1) Craftsman: Adds additional city production.
2) Armorer: Adds aditional military production (This assumes seperate queues for city improvements/military units which I feel is a must)
3) Engineer: Creates Public Works ala ctp
perhaps even a fourth:
4) Corporate: works like capatilism

And I still think cities were not *huge* centers of industry before Industrialization. Most of the fledgling industries (Italian glass, Dutch textiles, Chinese silk) were very regional and related to very localized resources. THIS IS WHY Civ has special resource squares. That's what they represent. They significantly impact the development of a city, making it an industrial powerhouse (coal, iron), or a huge trading center (silk, gold).

quote: 5 size, maybe even less, with just enough food to support some farmers and the rest laborers. Then all people would do is use the extra shields to make hordes and hordes of military units

For the present shield system, that may happen but with the new resource system not a chance!

If cities were not the centres for industry then what was it? country side?

I'm opposed to any mandatory resource system, as well. It should be like the Civ2 resources system. This is being discussed on another thread.

You ask what the centers for industry were before industrialization. There were none. Some stuff got made, sure, but there were not devoted "workingmen", as we think of today. I think the present system does a great job in making production pretty steady until Industrialization. As it should be.

As for the elvis thing. Come on, it's a picture that represents "Entertainer (technically, producer of luxuries)" in a city. They're not claiming that rock and roll existed in Ancient times, it's just a symbol that doesn't affect gameplay. What I'm saying is that we should not claim a large middle class devoted to mass production of goods existed in ancient times. That would affect gameplay, in a way so that it would diverge from the course of history dramatically.

Actually, I had read that. My last few posts were regarding the anachronicity (?) of the laborer class. OF course, in my first post I stated that the industrial city improvements (Factory, Man. Plant, Power Plant) already perform this function. If you want a laborer around after Industrialization, take out those improvements. Otherwise, it's "double jeopardy", sort of.

Banks are redundant with Taxmen
Temples are redundant with Entertainers
Universities are redundant with Scientists

You're absolutely right. The more I think of it, maybe I don't like the specialists.

Gary

quote: Originally posted by Youngsun on 02-22-2001 01:24 AM Do you have personal grudge on labour party

Not after Queensland.

There was a legendary thread called "From Terrain to Urbanism: an Innate Conceptual Fault" in which Vagabond posted his ideas for modelling urbanization as a source for trade and shields. His basic idea is: each city structure employs citizens just like terrain tiles (boxes beside the city terrain display would be added when the improvement is built).