The requirements that make up a shield would change over time. Though 'Energy' 'Metal' and 'Manufacturing' are fairly generic, the idea would make the game alot more realistic, as aquiring resources would shape your foriegn policy and your alliance structure. All of a sudden there is a reason for Japan to seek its "co-prosperity sphere", for the Germans to turn south to Stalingrad, for all the motivations of imperialism. This would make the game considerably more realisitic, and add an interesting dynamic, particularly to the modern age. Lets face it, when it comes to manufacturing, we've had it easy while in human history civilizations have had it tough.

Consider this, much as there is a grid of wheat, whales, and fish, there could be an underlying grid of oil and other materials needed to support modern industry. Underlying because we wouldn't know it was there until we enter the industrial age, when they would start to pop up (be discovered). So, you've got it made and are doing great all the game until the industrial age when you find out that much of the worlds oils is over there in the civ of that jerk, what's his name? The solution? WAR! or cut a deal? Or, a rotten game turns around when it is revealed that half the worlds known supply of oil is in your backyard, and everyone wants to be your friend. All of a sudden there is a reason to do these things...

...if Civ 3 has resources.

I played Imperialism for a while. Um. It might have been Imperialism II; I forget which, because I stopped playing it early on. It looked like a really great game on the box, and I spent my spare hours at work flipping through the instruction manual, trying to come up with strategies.

Imperialism was complex regarding the aquisition of raw materials and production, but that was what that game was all about. The same thing could be achieved on a much simpler level and the advantages would be tremendous. for Civ 3.

In Imp, you had to search for raw materials, in Civ 3 the way I described them, they just pop up at random after the industrial age.

Aquiring raw materials from other countries was complex in Imp, while in Civ 3 it could be a simple mutually advantageous trade or purchase. You want a complex trade system? How about the one in Civ 2? Which city was it that wanted WOOL again? Lets see, did I have to drop off the wine in Carthage, the gems in Munich and the...wait a sec, I was suposed to drop the gems in London, CRAP! So what did Carthage get again? -what a pain in the butt.

What is the general concept of a manufacturing point? Energy and metal are fairly obvious... Still how would labour factor in here? I mean labour is essentially energy, especially in the past. In some ways I think the concept of energy is handled fairly well already in Civ2 through the various types of power plants... unless your idea is adding a fourth concept to the existing ones of food, trade and production? It sort of seems like that - rivers and forests would be obvious sources of early power/energy for instance. But this does seem like adding a lot of complexity to the game.

Yep, I agree the trading system, in terms of execution anyway, sucked in Civ2. On the other hand, the execution in CtP is much better, but the concept of creating monopolies is frankly stupid. Civ2's supply/demand model was better that way, though obviously the commodities up for trade (why limit to 3?) leave much to be desired.

David, the question is not so much about power plants, but about what powers them. True, early on the main sourse of energy for manufacturing is human, so no change in the game system needs to be implemented until later.

In the age of sail things which would be needed for manufacturing are coal for foundrys, cotton for sails, oak for masts and hulls, iron for guns of all sorts. Certainly there could be more. The problem with more is added complexity, and making Civ 3 a game about trading isn't my wish at all.

Later in the game coal gives way to oil, hydro becomes much expanded, though it was used to power mills early on, it was a direct, mechanical approach. Towards the end, uranium is needed for nuke plants. David, have you ever sought out uranuim in Civ 2 because you needed it for your nuke plants? Have you ever fought a war to keep the factories running? These are the things we lack, and having them would be a real kick in the pants I think.

In the real world, each nation compete's for resources .. not 3 or 4, not 15-20 like in imp .. but hundreds and hundreds of them .. control the resource, and have a nice day

The difference is however, in the real world, there are millions of people, all dealing with them .. Governments can be hundreds of thousands of people .. in civ, your 1 person.. so scaling it down to a managable economy, which gets the feeling across is important .. I actually think imp had it spot on..15-20 economic resources .. that change over time in importance ..

Another similar system was in colonization .. I actually loved the fact that you could ship firs in from Canada, build factories to process them .. and sit on a stock-pile until the price was right...

Cost of a phalanx: 20 shields or 10 shields +1 bronze
Cost of a battleship: 200 shields or 100 shields + 2 iron

Basically, having the right resources vastly increases the efficiency of your production, but you are not prevented from building most things by not having the neccessary resources.

For some strategic items you may be forced to buy the resource to build them though.

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 02-14-2001 02:37 PM An example of a resource system: Cost of a phalanx: 20 shields or 10 shields +1 bronze Cost of a battleship: 200 shields or 100 shields + 2 iron

If there is going to be different resources, such as Bronze and Iron, why keep the old shields?

quote: commodity like "fuel" or "metal" or something.

My original thought was like that but wouldn't that be fun? I would feel excited to have "crude oil" and "iron ore" than "fuel resource" and "heavy metal". That's CivIII trends as well(F-15 rather than jet-fighter or panzer-tank rather than WWII era tank)If we sort out very basic and crucial resources for industrial production things don't have to be so messy.

Production Resources
Wood-Basic~
Stone-Basic~
Clay-Baisc~
Copper-Primary Ancient~Supplmentary Modern
Iron-Supplementary/Primary Ancient ~ Primary Modern

Energy resources
Wood-basic~
Coal-Primary Industrial
Oil-Primary Modern
Uranium-Primary Modern

Precious metals
Gold/Silver
Gem

Food items
Wheat
Dairy

That's all I can think of so-called crucial resources and that's enough to simulate reasonable international trade based on good market system.

monolith94

quote: Because I was thinking, why not assign labor points. . . You can have all the metal you want, but if you don't have the man power it aint gonna get made. Maybe you could even make a special citizen unit that instead of generating luxuries (like an elvis), it would generate labor points. Basically taking your workers off the fields and putting them into the city, doing construction work! You could do that to build stuff faster. . . What do you guys think?

What a great idea!
monolith94 put more of your ideas on that matter I'm very positive about this! Is this beginning of new "labour class" from plain conventional city classes?

quote: Originally posted by Roman on 02-15-2001 05:56 AM If the resource system is to be included in Civ3 I feel that the random seed function from Civ2 must dissapear and instead when producing maps in the map editor, we ought to be able to place the resources ourselves.

Yes, Roman, that's a must. The random seed function was weird and useless for scenario building...

Besides, I like the labour workers idea very much. It would be very realistic and it wouldn't really overcomplicate the game, since it would work pretty much like scientists/tax collectors/elvis...

Roman's idea struc me as the best, because you could still build everything with standard shields. You would still be using shields but would not be tied down by needing certain resources.

I would propose that all trade goods also be resources; as to not overcomplicate the matter. If a city was being traded/ was currently using a commodity necessary for building (industrial commodity) they would be able to build up this commodity and thus recive discounts on buildings and units.

For example: CycloCity has a shield production of 15, is currently mining coal (1 per turn) and is trading with another city for iron and silk.

Let's say a heavy cruiser costs 250 shields. Normally, it would take me 14 turns to build it. But, what if its price was:

HEAVY CRUISER: 250 shields
3 iron: -75 shields
2 coal: -25 shields

If I had previously saved up the coal and iron I was getting for a few turns, I could get a heavy cruiser for only 150 shields in 10 turns.

Other comodities, like silk, would be non-industrial. These would not be used for building but instead just trading.

I like this idea. How about you guys?

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 on 02-15-2001 04:23 PM I would propose that all trade goods also be resources; as to not overcomplicate the matter. If a city was being traded/ was currently using a commodity necessary for building (industrial commodity) they would be able to build up this commodity and thus recive discounts on buildings and units. For example: CycloCity has a shield production of 15, is currently mining coal (1 per turn) and is trading with another city for iron and silk. Let's say a heavy cruiser costs 250 shields. Normally, it would take me 14 turns to build it. But, what if its price was: HEAVY CRUISER: 250 shields 3 iron: -75 shields 2 coal: -25 shields If I had previously saved up the coal and iron I was getting for a few turns, I could get a heavy cruiser for only 150 shields in 10 turns.

This is just as I have imagined it.

In Republic and Democracy you should not be allowed by the senate to trade military units with certain other types of governments. (Unless you are allied w/ them)

By the way, I was talking about that these industrial resources should be commodities, too. There are only slight differences:

Industrial (i.e. iron, coal, bronze)
- Can be used (as stated) as supplements to building.
- Can be stored up, at a fixed rate.
- Fixed amounts of stored industrial resources can be traded, as can the resource routes themselves (trade routes).

Commercial (i.e. silk, tobacco, gold)
- Cannot be stored up or used for building
- Can form trade routes
- When used to trade, brings in proportionally more revenue than industrial resources (commercial res. tend to be more exotic and command higher prices).

Okay?

Some commodities should be dynamic; that is, they change status between industrial and commercial and vice versa.

For example, bronze was very important industrially in the bronze age, but is now purely ornamental. (industrial to commercial)

Likewise, sulfer(sp?) was valued by alchemists and as an oddity, until it was discovered as a vital component of gunpowder. (commercial to industrial)

These changes of commodity status should be based on civ advances, not just on ages.