------------------
"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

quote: No.

Well that was a hard fought out argument over the subject. I perfectly see your point of view.

(Care to elaborate?)

------------------
"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

Rather than forming a "ring of defence", the balloon could be used for reconnaissance (both offensive and defensive) and bombardments.

In WW II, the allied forces were still afraid of the airship. They bombed the airship works, and the Germans went into rocketry instead, that's why none were used.

With today's technology (no hydrogen!) an airship could take a lot of bullets and a few rockets before going down, but would probably be used for transportation. Unless it had Stealth

quote: it could be an excellent recon unit

And on the subject of airships - if they are to be included, shouldn't they have a small chance per end-of-turn of exploding?

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 12-03-2000 04:49 PM Balloon Defense- this sounds far too unlikely, since it never happened.

Yes it did. During World War I the British surrounded important cities with simple balloons to catch German bomber planes and crash them. It would be an effective defence aganst early planes.

------------------
"Freedom, Trade, Christantine!"

quote: Originally posted by UltraSonix on 12-04-2000 04:17 AM So that's what was meant by "balloon defense"! I had thought it was defence against balloons!

The question of wether or not the use of Barage ballons during WWII as a deterent to low level bombing- strafing was efective is still debatable, basicaly they did not stop highlevel bombers, and were fairly esily dispached by a few planes strafing the area prior to or while the main atack was going in, Stray rounds from dogfights above the Balloons, and even by defending AAA fire, or, if deplyed improperly, they were simply ignored by the fighter pilots.

on the other hand, Observation ballons only existed from the US Civil war untill WW1(and were aparenly being fased out during the end of WW1). Zeplins from aproximatly 1890-1918 or so befor Flak and Higher altitude aircraft could reach them routeenly, and even then a practical bomer zeplin did not apear untill after WW1 was well underway.

The US Navys Zeplins, while spectacular, did not last long, and at best were litle more than observation platforms and plublicity stunts.

however, what would posibly be the most succesflull use of Lighter than Aircraft would have to be the use and deployment of the US Navy Blimps for convoy escorts during WWII, and even their record may have been a coincidence(due to Submarine activity moving to the mid-atlantic)

However one could argue that aerodynamics is a slightly more complicated idea than ballooning. Who's to say what might have happened if the wright brothers never existed? From 1903 to 1914 is only 11 game turns, so what if in WWI the germans (with new discoveries say.. every 14 turns..) chose to research 'economics' instead of 'flight'?

I'm sure in such a scenario you would see the balloon technology used to greater effect in bombing and transport than it was. Who knows? I'm sure some of you have seen or played 'Crimson Skies' by Microsoft. That's the perfect example of an 'alternate history' where zepplins have developed (perhaps with a jump on planes) to play a larger role in air warfare.

No sense convoluting it with all sorts of special rules, but it would make an interesting chassis.

Just consider;

*place one or two steps 'up' the tech tree - Successful baloon flights were made well before powered flight.

*Chassis cheaper than planes.

*Major cost to put both offense/defense on chassis (or dissalow)

*planes gain same bonus attacking balloons as they do ground troops.

...As far as Evil Cap. and his swarm of killer turtles... Hey, that's what mods are for.

quote: No BLOODY unit work shop, I hated it totaly in SMAC

I don't remember why do you hate it so much, but really the SMAC Workshop has a bad interface and a disappointing graphics for units (because of limiting choices of graphics component, that must all mix toghetert almost as LEGO (c) blocks: they should draw more components, that Workshop engine would chose more appropriately for every combo, with better results).

The whole concept must be tuned by customizable rules, especially limiting available mix for scenario reasons.

In fact, a Workshop feature needs a carefull balance of numbers for every components (reducer or enhancer for hits points, attack points, etc.), but it opens wide possibility for alternative history, what-if scenario and so on.
The Earth History should become only the standard scenario, for map, tech tree and available units combo.

Heck, I think it is a great idea!
But I merely put the balloon stats because that is how Civ II functioned.

Airships could be a good early bombing unit, but only if the game is slowed down enough by the modern age. Otherwise they'll be like frigates and their period of usefulness is shorter than the time it takes to build one. Furthermore, after they become obsolete in the front lines, they'd be an excellent type of trade/transport/resupply unit, since they're perfectly good for freight transport.

Hey, how come Transport Tycoon never used airships?

quote: Originally posted by jdlessl on 12-06-2000 01:13 AM Airships could be a good early bombing unit, but only if the game is slowed down enough by the modern age. Otherwise they'll be like frigates and their period of usefulness is shorter than the time it takes to build one. Furthermore, after they become obsolete in the front lines, they'd be an excellent type of trade/transport/resupply unit, since they're perfectly good for freight transport. -- Jared Lessl

This would be good I think. Replace the camel with the balloon.

Also for the record I loved the unit workshop. And, if I recall correctly, it cost the same amount to upgrade from an inferior unit, as to build it straight from scratch.

quote: Originally posted by beyowulf on 12-07-2000 01:42 PM This would be good I think. Replace the camel with the balloon. Also for the record I loved the unit workshop. And, if I recall correctly, it cost the same amount to upgrade from an inferior unit, as to build it straight from scratch.

All hail the unit workshop. If a balloon chassis was made you could just put the trade 'module' on the balloon chassis instead of the regular (mounted?) chassis if you wanted.

Having said that, I don't think it would be tough to playbalance it for trade. It's going to cost a helluva lot more to put a zep into freight service than a few camels or trucks. And it's not like you would gain a trade bonus.. you'd just have the advantage of being able to travel overseas without having to build a separate transport.

And as for realism, I should think a zep is certainly going to be able to carry the same load as a caravan of camels! Anyone know how many passengers the Hindenburg could carry? (And I'll bet you it was ferrying cargo/luggage/mail too.)

The uses for airships are as follows.
Trading: easier to move through rough territory than trains.
Bombing: good predecesor to heavy bomber planes.
Transport: Probably only for infantry and light vehicles.

Bear in mind, their window of use for military purposes is pretty damned short. They really only got good enough to do anything in the years just before WW1 and for perhaps a decade after. After that, they're just too easily shot down. But for trade and supply, they'd be great.

quote: Originally posted by jdlessl on 12-09-2000 01:01 AM They're just too easily shot down.

Again: it would take a LOT of ammunition to shoot down a modern Airship. You will have to see them first, too. And they might just come protected by Fighters if you do.

The thing about radar is that it comes maybe 20 or 30 turns too late. Of course, it can take half that long just to build up a decent bombing fleet, so again you run into the frigate problem. By the time you actually build them, they're nearly obsolete.

in fact, a great number of my seiges against enemy civs have been through Frigates. Usually I find an unsuspecting civ with mostly coastal cities and phalanxes to defend them...and then I crush them in around 10 turns.