This is the best suggestion here for a while! It's so simple and yet elegant!

quote: I don't think is fair that you can obtain knowledge trough conquest or exchange wich is simply way out of your current level. I suggest that when you obtain such a knowledge, it should NOT be available to you. It should stay in an 'inactive' mode until you have the required knowledge to understand it.

quote: Even more, if the advance you obtained requires more steps on the tech tree, you won't even be able to see the name of that advance. You conquer a city and you select some 'Unknown advace'. Later on the game, when you've reached on the tech tree the branch than is one level below that 'Unknown advance', you'll get a message like 'Our scientist have understood what is the Unknown Advance we obtained 6 turns ago. Its is Mobile Warfare. We need to research Automobile to unrestand it completely'.

And I agree with rremus, the build-last-thing idea might not be so good...

I think sometimes you could apply techs which are beyond your knowledge level. This is especially true for (I'm not sure what is the right word here) "applied sciences". Your people could learn HOW to do some things, whitout knowing WHAT are they doing. Of course, you wouldn't be able to use this "half-known" knowledge for further research, or for trading purposes, until you discover all the prereq techs.
Maybe there should be some penalties for using such a "half-known" tech, for ex. slower or more expensive goods production.

Of course, this wouldn't work for all techs (for. ex, in the case of literacy->philosophy will not). But for "applied sciences" I think it's a sollution.

If this sounds too complicated, than Firaxis should use at least Remus' model.

If I see pottery, I can figure out how to keep food in it.

If I see a tank, I have no idea what "mobile warfare" is, especially since it's more than technology...it involves military tactics.

I think your comments about a Cathedral in a conquered city would not give a deep understanding of Monotheism to the conquerers make sense... and yes, sadly in real life, you are right, usually these things are destroyed.

A rule would have to hold true throughout the game and it would be hard to work a rule that was fair to the two extremes of technologies.

quote: Originally posted by Joseph on 10-19-2000 05:10 PM After our traitors gave the Russian the A-bomb secrets, it only took four years for them to build one. When you gain the knowledge, you still have to build one (what ever it is).

IIRC the information the russian received about the A-bomb was from spies. It was very partial and it took the russians several years to complete a whole A-bomb.

I think the acse with the ytaitors was about the H-bomb.

I'm not sure since I saw so many documentaries about this that my head aches

Am I right?
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Any way, regarding the Idea it-self, I agree.

I am sick and tired of the AI stealing "stealth" when he doesn't even have automobile. (ok ok, so I'm exaggurating here, but you get my point )

We could send an e-mail to Firaxis, "signed" by as many apolytoners as possible. Who said we may send only lists?

I was playing Civnet. I was very advanced while the Aztecs were not.

I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!!

While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

quote: Originally posted by red_jon on 10-21-2000 06:26 AM I think this is a great idea as-- I was playing Civnet. I was very advanced while the Aztecs were not. I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!! While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

Instead of "Chief Sitting Bull" he would have become "Chief Driving Dodge"

quote: I gave them automobile, looked in their city view screen and they had roads and cars BETWEEN THEIR TEEPEES!! While it was incredibly funny, I don't think its very realistic...

So I guess that's why the orginal suggestion by rremus would probably be very good.

Only one suggestion: Maybe when you get these "unknown research and applied information" you decided that it may be of some benefit to look into this. Since you have the engineering advance this is possible. Next time you have to pick a tech to investigate you pick "reverse engineer unknown research and applied information fron CivX". This would eneable you to back discover the techs neccesary for that advance, maybe with a small bonus brcause you have something to work with (20%?). Of course you wouldn't get any of the tech advances until you have uncovered the lowest ones.

Well, that's for people who want realism. I think (as a UoP player) the idea is great anyway.

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- Biddles

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- Biddles

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- Biddles

I totally agree that you should not get a usable free science advance from spying that is too advanced for youd civilisation. Perhaps spies should just steal extra bulbs rather than whole techs. As long as the target civ had already researched what you are researching, you automatically halve the remaining cost of learning it? Avoids messy problems of techs you know but can't use. It also stops the spy rush of advancing 10 techs in 1 turn just because your boatload of spies managed to land and sneak onto a railroad.

Conversely, the spread of military hardware around the world is pretty universal in the modern era. Even the tightest arms embargoes have never stopped 3rd world dictators, rebels and revolutionaries getting hold of assault rifles, grenades, mines and anti-tank missiles even though they'd have a hard time manufacturing a musket. Perhaps the ease with which other civs manage to steal military techs is attempting to represent that? I would prefer a button that allowed anyone to try and buy an 'upgrade' for their units to turn them into guerillas or just hire mercenaries. The troops should certainly be inferior to true regulars, but its better than facing an armoured division with spears. The cost of upgrading would decline as more and more countries acquired the capability to produce their own modern arms.

quote: Originally posted by Grrr on 12-12-2000 04:12 PM I think this is a good idea, but this did not always occur in reality, an example of this is when the british colonizers arrived in New Zealand, the Maori, quickly learnt by methods of trade the knowledge, of gunpowder, and musketry. This would not be possible in your ideas, as the Maori had not yet invented writing or litracy. There should be a chance that you can understand the advance, but not a definate NO!

But would they understand internal combustion or particle physics? Gunpowder is pretty simple when it comes down to it.

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- Biddles

But things like the automobiles would definitely require machine tools and combustion and a good set of its pre-reqs.

To do it, every tech would have to have 2 sets of pre-reqs. One set is the what you need to be able to research it. The other is what you need to understand it. Gunpowder would have only some primitive stuff in the latter set, so it's easy to spread around.