I’ve changed existing city lists to ensure that cities don’t appear twice in the lists, or, where this was impossible (i.e. Italians and Romans), I gave them the same colour. I also made them more accurate (i.e. I only added Turkish cities to the Romans, if they were most important during the roman period).
I’m sure many of you have made their own civilizations and/ or city lists. I’d appreciate any help; Civilizations I really need to include are: Assyrians, Siam, Songhai

Up to now my list includes the following civs with a city list:

Europe: Italians, Germans, Greeks, Dutch, Russians, French, Polish, Etruscans, Austrians (Austro-Hungarians), English, Vikings, Portuguese, Romans, Irish, Yugoslavians, Scots, Spanish, Swedish,
Americas: Americans, Inca, Maya, Sioux, Tarascs, Brazilians, Aztecs, Mexicans, Chileans, Argentineans,
Asia: Turks, Chinese, Mongols, Japanese, Israelites, Persians, Arabians, Babylonians, Indians, Hittites, Phoenicians, Koreans,
Africa: Egyptians, Zulu, Abessinians, Mali,

Your going to have a lot of people on your ass if you leave out the Canadians. Expecally since I haven't heard of most of those civilizations before!!!

If the "rise and fall of empires" idea will be added to civ3, we could have great empires splitting in small nations (for ex. brittons in english, americans and canadians; romans in italians, french and spanish or austro-hungarians in austrians, hungarians, checzs and slovaks; no offence, it's just an example). Of course, make the changes historically accurate, or make them random, depends on the player's choice.

On my Tribes 0.1 list I included the Canadians under 'Minor Tribes' (*New Addition)

Canada has a HUGE peace keeping force compartive to it's population and military.
It's been repeatively voted the best country in the world to live.
Canada has the largest amount of fresh water in North America.
Canada has a fairly low crime rate.
These are just some of the reasons that Canada should not only be IN the game but be a MAJOR tribe!

But then again, health care is free in most of the country if I understand correctly.

Oh and the underfunded military is joked about pretty frequently too. But i think this is getting a little off-topic so...

I just added you to my civs

For Asia, add the Tibetans.

Everything else looks fine for major civs.

Just my two cents.

The USA is different because we have many, many, many different cultures and have been seperate from Britain for a very long time.

Canada has many cultures all independent which make up this great country. Canada did contribute a lot to the World Wars and has a seat on the UN (security Council), G7 or G8 (can't remember if it changed or not), WTO, etc...

Canada is in organizations with other Major civs so it should also be a major civ!!!

Seriously

And I dont remember the Canadians in any conflicts... Maybe few soldiers... but who cares about it...

The great civilizations are
English, German, Roman, Polish... Russian are anti-civilization I think

Why on earth would Canada or Australia or New Zealand (??!?) be civ in the game????

First none of these countries have their own culture. Second they have excisted for only a few years. Third, and most importantly, THEY ARE NOT WORLD POWERS!

And the Aboriginals? They don't even have a civilization, no alphabet, no cities, nothing. Why would they be a civilization?

I think that only the ancient civilizations should be in the game - the Egyptian, the Babylonian, the Chinese civilizations and such. Through the rise and fall of great powers these would split, and form new civs, which would be named according to the civ they originated from. Meaning that the Teuton civ would split into the Germans, the British and so on. The British would split into the Americans etc etc. This would provide a lot of realism, and would also mean that a lot of civs could be in the game, as they would appear as splinter civs of older ones.

But since Firaxis is not selling the game to Babylonians or Egyptians they will propably include the canadians and other pathetic civs, to make them happy. But if they do I would like them to go all the way, and include the glorious Texan civ or the mighty and ancient New Yorkans. And, if we're lucky, I could get to play as my favorite CTP leader: Bob Marley, leader of the Jamaicans!

BTW: Denmark is actually all that Canada is, only better. We have a better social security system, better health care, give more money to third world countries, have a lousier military (and have higher taxes). So why not include the fantastic Danish civ?

quote: Originally posted by The Joker on 08-20-2000 04:21 PM BTW: Denmark is actually all that Canada is, only better. We have a better social security system, better health care, give more money to third world countries, have a lousier military (and have higher taxes). So why not include the fantastic Danish civ?

Sure include the glorious Danish Civ. And every civ that ever existed in the history of the Earth!!! Thank God for customization!!!! I'll be able to add and change all I want.

I don't know how people can try and keep Canada out of the game!! Second biggest country in the world..... and the list goes on. I've said some of them already.

You made your point very well! I agree completely.
And it seems I am not the only person to be exasperated by the ignorance of some people.

quote: What Canada has been longer Country then Germany...? It is too stupid to comment, I say only that Roman Empire of German Nation was the greatest empire in X-XI century, and Canada...

'By the way, the German empire is older than some posters seem to know: in 962AD Otto I the Great founded the Holy Roman Empire Deutscher Nation, which was not a nation based state in the modern sense, but the German element was certainly dominant in it; this first "Reich" lasted until 1806. I would date the birth of the English kingdom at 1066 at least, of the French kingdom at 987 (Hugo Capet), possibly even earlier (Clovis). Someone like Jeanne d'Arc proves that some sense of national identity did exist in the later Middle Ages, in Europe at least.

From 962AD until about 1250 the German Empire was a formidable one, no doubt about it- taking stock of the fact that all power was very limited in those days, absolutely nothing in comparison with the modern nation-state. The emperor was considered the highest authority in western christianity, having great power in Germany, Italy, Burgundy and considerable influence in surrounding countries like France, Bohemia and Poland.
The dynasty of the Ottones saved this part of Europe from the onslaught of the Hungarians. The empire expanded rapidly eastwards during this period, subjecting many Slav people. Temporarily they even controlled the church, selecting the pope and acting in all respects like the equal of that other emperor, ruling the eastern part of the Roman world from Constantinople.

Their very success brought about a reversal, because it created many enemies, who all allied against them: the papacy, the German aristocracy, in Italy the city states. The decline set in with the Investiture Controversy, the central issue being the appointment of bishops. Because the kings/emperors ruled through those bishops, control of the investiture was the very cornerstone of their power. The Papacy, beginning with Gregory VII (the other power claiming universal authority), and empire were at one another's throats for centuries and went down together. The French Capetians were the one who's sitting pretty: in the end the pope ended as their hostage in Avignon.

Because papacy and empire with their universal claims balanced one another, the future belonged in Europe to the national monarchies; an essential point in the development of Western christianity, a "true" civilization, becoming in this way a dominant feature as is aptly proved by this page. Greater personal freedom is an other result of this unresolved battle between church and state.

But until 1250, when Frederick II of Hohenstaufen died the outcome of the battle wasn't clear. For the emperors it was unfortunate that the emergence of the German cities, their natural allies against the aristocracy, was relatively late and less spectacular than in Italy.'

And commenting on the main topic:
Its true that not all "original" civilizations existed in 4000BC, but some of them did: the Sumerian, Egyptian, Indus and Chinese. Then some more creative posters came with the idea of introducing the rise AND fall of civilizations: today the only civilization clearly still there, is the Chinese, which is an achievement in itself. Hurrah for the Chinese!!

And why should all civilizations start at the same date? I think the game could be made much more interesting for the advanced player if he could choose a late-starting civilization. A player could earn points for every year his civilization existed. Nor should military defeat necessarily spell the end of a civilization! Normally a civilization will absorb the conqueror through assimilition.

To those intelligent readers really interested in the concept of a civilization I would like to recommend W.H.McNeill: "The rise of the West(1963)"

If a small nation (14 million inhabitants??)like the Australians would be included, the Indian civilization alone could be divided in about hundred different nations who were politically important during the last 3000 years; Aryans, Dravidians, Magadhans, Guptas, Shakas, Kushanas, Tamils, Chalukyas, Pallavas, Pandyas, Cholas, Rajputs, just to name some. Nice idea!

In this thread the subject is elaborately covered. The advantage of my proposals is that they cover not only Europe, but six millennia of human history. And we can find here the germ of the brilliant Rise and Fall idea!

First of all, what major civ did not start out as a minor civ? At the time the small city of Rome liberated itself from Eutruscan rule around 500 BC I would say that it was a pretty minor entity compared to China, the Persian empire, or even some of the Greek confederations.

Want realism? Make it possible for a small, insignificant city state to become a major power in 200 years and the greatest economic power in history, up to that point, in another 200. Make it possible for a few tiny cities on a far off continent to revolt from their mother country and then in 150 years time dwarf that mother country in population and industrial might, all without conquering any major population centers. Make it possible for a minor civ confined to an island chain the size of California with few natural resources, still in the iron age when the major powers are for the most part quite industrialized, to in 50 years be able to compete with those industrialized civs militarily (Russo Japanese war, Japanese won), 50 years later conquer half the pacific, get throttled and bombed back into the stone age, and in another 40 years have the 2nd largest economy on earth and be #2 in industrial output, all without (succesfully, anyway) expanding beyond its original borders or skyrocketing in population.

Actually the story of a minor civ becoming a great power, sometimes even overshadowing older civilizations, is the rule, not the exception. Of course this degree of realism would be hard to impliment, so for practical purposes we should probably content ourselves with the myriad of China type eternal civs that we have gotten so far.
This important and highly intelligent post was originally written by Matthew!

The major ones would be the ones 'absolutely necessary' to the game while the minor ones would be minor tribes with no real culture, they never were superpowers, they never really developed into a civ, they never really were united, they just weren't important enough.

I don't mean to put everyone off, but there is no reason under the sun to include 'civilizations' such as the Canadians, Australians, or New Zealanders in the game, for even though they contributed to WWII they really are not civilizations, they are countries.

What is the difference you may ask.
The differences are subtle yet many.
1.A civilization has risen and fallen in power possibly many times.
I.E. America, Russia, Germany, Romans, Egyptians, Turks, etc.
2.A civilization has stood the test of time and existed for 100 years or so independent from others.
3.A civilization has built its own culture through immigration or indigenous development. I.E. China, America, India, Russia

Websters Dictionary defines civilization as-

1.The culture characteristics of a particular time or place

2. The process of becoming civilized

3. A situation of urban comfort.

If they can properly rise and fall they'll generate many different countries, some very succesfull (in power terms) as U.S.A.

Minor civ (if for gameplay reason some Civ will be limited from start to that role) can include a lot of "short lasted" country.

Anyone that wants its personal country in, should ask for some specific scenarios: this will better reproduce the role of that country without shadowing it with major powers presence.

Every country fights for its place in the world, and has been in a key point sometimes.

I don't want to miscredit it, still many probably didn't played such important role in history for a long time.

Sure, we must have some freedom into rewriting history in a Civ III game, still we should start from a realistic situation IMHO.

"Switzerland should rule the world, if only that alien spacecraft didn't vaporize itself over Tunguska, but landed safely in font of a Swiss Bank..." can be funny, but I hope not the core of the game.

BTW, what about discarding Sid Meiers part of the game name and call it
"Raise and fall of Civilizations"?

Oh, I see the bad marketing effect if the game turned in a flop Never mind!

So, the nation of Canada is therfore older than the present nation of Germany, which was formed in 1871, made a republic in 1919, a dictatorship in 1933, two republics in 1949, and reunited as a federal state in 1989.

So there. Let the disagreements begin!

8-)

quote: . For Asia, add the Tibetans. Vitmore

Tibetans was only a kind of Chinese,
they have always been under the rule
of the chinese kings, so tibetans are
not eligeble to be added as a major civ,
maybe it could be a minor civ, waiting
to be conquered by the great chinese empire.

The Nation is not equal the state...

a) Canada is a nation by your definition,

b) I'm not American, and

c) my knowledge of history is just fine.

Vitmore 8-)

Plus all the native indian tribes that lived in Canada and Newfoundland at the time. In Newfoundland alone you had the Beothuks and the MicMaks. If the Souix are a major tribe in Civ 2 how can't Canada be a major tribe in Civ 3!!!

It was great to read through that old thread again. Weren't we the ones who developed the Rise and Fall of Civilizations idea? I know Matthew layed the foundation in the thread you linked to, but I think it was us who developed the idea in the SE Models thread. At least we named it, as you mentioned Kennedy's (not JF, another Kennedy) book "Rise and Fall of Great Powers", and I had knew about it. Quickly the rise and fall were simply the name of our project. It all topped when the Matthew raised the rise and fall idea to the top of the EC3 list!

This brings back some good memories...

BTW: I am thinking about perhabs suggesting The Rise and Fall of Great Powers/Civilizations as the name for OpenCiv3. Could this be a good name???

You can not create Nation in one year just by building the state...

CANADA IS,HAS, AND WAS NEVER MAJOR ARMY/POLITICAL POWER IN THE WORLD! UNTIL AFTER WORLD WAR II IT MERELY "Followed" IT'S PARENT COUNTRY- BRITAIN IN WHAT EVER IT DID. BRITAIN DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY, SO DID CANADA IN WORLD WAR I, BRITAIN DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY IN WORLD WAR II, SO DID CANADA.
CANADA MAY BE A NICE PLACE TO LIVE BUT SO WHAT!? DO YOU THINK THAT EGYPT WAS A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE!?!?
ALL CIVS IN CIV II HAVE BEEN/ARE/OR WERE (To repeat myself) MAJOR CIVS AT ONE TIME; CONSIDER

1. Romans
2. Russians
3. Germans
4. French
5. Americans
6. Egyptians
7. Chinese
8. Aztec
9. etc.

NO CIV WAS CONSIDERED FOR THE SAKE OF ADDING AN EXTRA CIVILIZATION.

Notice: all these civs had three things in common.

1. They had/have their own unique culture
2. They were/are great civilizations with much power.
3. They have influenced the world in some great way.
EXAMPLE:
America- World War II
Germany- Great Authors,Poets,Musicians, All World Wars
England- Founded America. Had a great empire that influenced all lands, Canada, Austrailia,India,South Africa. In the seven seas.
etc.

SO ALL YOU CANADA SUPPORTERS- READ THIS!