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Topic:   Governments Format for Better Printing
Christantine The Great
Settler
Royal Palace, Chrisonian Capital Christantinople
Jun 2000
posted July 18, 2000 14:12   Click Here to See the Profile for Christantine The GreatClick Here to Email Christantine The Great  send a private message to Christantine The Great
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This is the list of governments that I think should be in Civ III:

From the most Ancient to Modern.


Despotism

Same rules.

Monarchy

Same rules.

Constitutional Monarchy

Military: 5 troops can institute martial law; 1 makes 1 citizen content

Corruption & Waste: Corruption and waste are a problem but not as bad as a Monarchy. The distance from capital rule is used.

Resource Support: Can support 2 units no cost for each city. Each after that is 1 shield per turn. Settlers are 2 food per turn.

Special Conditions: Maximum tax, science, luxury setting 70. You have a Parliament that can influence your decision to go to war 30% of the time. (I think a Government like this is good for a novice Civ III player to get to know the more freedom giving governments because the first time I went from Monarchy to Republic I was blown away.)

Republic

Same rules.

"Uncorrupted" Communism

Same as Civ II Communism except there can only be 1 trade route to a city. same in Corrupted communism.

"Corrupted" Communism

(This happens if you are a communist for over ?75? turns)

Attitude: up to 2 troops can enforce martial law. 2 makes 1 unhappy person content.

Corruption and waste: Corruption equal to Monarchy. No waste.

Resource Support: Each non-missle unit is free up to the 2 unit. Missles are free.

Special Conditions: All spy units are veteran. Nuclear Missle cost is halved. Max rate for tax, lux, and sci is 60. If you build nukes and then change governments than all nukes that were half cost lose 50% percent of there movement rate and they continue to decay until they can only be dropped from an airplane. (They turn into a atom bomb) The decay rate is one movement point per 2 turns.

Fundamentalism:

Someone make a sugestion please! This government is very unfair.

Democracy:

Same???

I made two Communism governments because I believe that a Communist government can never stay pure for a long period of time. In the corrupted government I made nukes half price because even until the 1980's the USSR always seemed to be able to make more and more missles even though their economy was squashed.

Tell me what you think.

------------------
"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

Dalgetti
Warlord
Haifa , Israel
Apr 2000
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I guess fundamentalism should be separated from theocracy .

and we need that bad guy of the neighbourhood- the fascist !

so I guess this is my idea :

fundamentalism :

reduced terror penalties
instead of 3 unhappy heads just 1 !
science halved AND max SCIENCE rate is
40% .
only 1 unit institutes martial law . it pleases 1 "head".

theocracy :

no support needed for "happy" buildings
( not including the coloseum )

crusaders demand no support (?!) , if they'll
exist.
hi corruption , like in despotism .

fascism :

OK ... so we need high science . pretty much no money ( max TAX rate - 10% ) high production . goverment collapses if capital is captured .
I wont add any ethnical cleansing coz it's fascism , not nazism which have this effect as one of the major differences .
no unit-outta-town-unhappiness crap.

did this do the trick?

Dalgetti


------------------
Prepare to Land !

Christantine The Great
Settler
Royal Palace, Chrisonian Capital Christantinople
Jun 2000
posted July 18, 2000 16:56   Click Here to See the Profile for Christantine The GreatClick Here to Email Christantine The Great  send a private message to Christantine The Great
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Thanks Dalgetti. I didn't mention Fasciasm because the patch didn't work on my computer. What do you mean about 3 unhappy heads unstead of 1 for the Fundy gov?

------------------
"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1
[This message has been edited by Christantine The Great (edited July 18, 2000).]

LightEning
King
Rich Junack!
Oct 1999
posted July 18, 2000 16:59   Click Here to See the Profile for LightEningClick Here to Email LightEning  send a private message to LightEningSend a Message to UIN: 72512646 Visit LightEning's Homepage!
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... of course, scenario-makers have to be able to change the penalties and bonuses of different governments, and of course also add their own governments or ban using certain governments and change government names and everything...
CornMaster
Chieftain
Ft. Pierce, Flordia, USA
May 2000
posted July 18, 2000 23:14   Click Here to See the Profile for CornMasterClick Here to Email CornMaster  send a private message to CornMasterSend a Message to UIN: 20706862 Visit CornMaster's Homepage!
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Well I don't think that a Communist government should ever become corrupted. As I just wrote in another post it's the leaders of the government that push it in the corrupt direction or the good direction. If a Communist Government can become corrupted so should a Monarchy (expecally!!), Republic (should become weak and ineffectual), Democracy should also break down (because of lying, propaganda against others and a gap between rich and poor which should cause civil wars.).


You also left out a Dictatorship. Athough I feel this is very close to fascism and fundamentalism. And there should not be such strict restrictions on science, tax, or lux. toward a Communsit government. The current rate of 80% is fine. Remember the Communists put the first satilitte into orbit.

Anyway more stepping on toes.

------------------
"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"If the great Emperors of Rome, Egypt and Greece were alive today, do you think they would prefer Coke or Pepsi?"

Par4
King
of The Righteous Right
May 2000
posted July 19, 2000 01:37   Click Here to See the Profile for Par4   send a private message to Par4Send a Message to UIN: 73426191
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Make commieism an economic SE.

------------------
King Par4!!

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai

Michael Dnes
King
of The Righteous Right
May 2000
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There should be some form of oligarchy, not constitutional monarchy (I assume this refers to the 18th century British style government, rather than the modern style). Oligagchy should have:
Same martial law as monarchy
10% bonus on trade routes or +5% tax or something similar.
Could change to democracy without revolution
80% maximum tax
Senate like 'comercial\landed interests' who may also force you out of alliances and into wars.

I think they left a big gap, lumping this in with republic in the original game.

phunny pharmer
Chieftain
La Jolla, Ca, US
Jun 2000
posted July 19, 2000 17:12   Click Here to See the Profile for phunny pharmerClick Here to Email phunny pharmer  send a private message to phunny pharmer Visit phunny pharmer's Homepage!
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Not that I endorse any of the following but here are other, later governments to round out the spectrum. These are only ideas, so feel free to add details.

"Atlas Shrugged" Lassez-Faire capitalism:

High tax creation, high productivity, corruption???, lots of unhappy citizens, very elitist...

"1984" communism:

Possibly a continuation of communism, but just the opposite of "corrupted" communism. High tax, extreme science penalty, low productivity, nukes like crazy, ignores all sanctions/diplomatic penalties

Another point- Democracy should actually have elections every 2/4/6/8/whatever years. You could know whether the 'hawks' or 'doves' are in power. If the war was very unpopular, 'doves' would take over for a long time. If someone 'Pearl Harbors' you, then the 'hawks' will make sure that the enemy is spanked.

BTW: do you like my school's summer reading list ;-) :-) :-) ;-)

phunny pharmer
Chieftain
La Jolla, Ca, US
Jun 2000
posted July 19, 2000 17:13   Click Here to See the Profile for phunny pharmerClick Here to Email phunny pharmer  send a private message to phunny pharmer Visit phunny pharmer's Homepage!
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Damn, why aren't those smilies working. No, I didn't disable smilies. HELP!!!!
Par4
King
of The Righteous Right
May 2000
posted July 19, 2000 20:17   Click Here to See the Profile for Par4   send a private message to Par4Send a Message to UIN: 73426191
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Don't use the -

= : ) no space
= ; ) no space

Use el legend de smilious

------------------
King Par4!!

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai

Comrade Dan
Emperor
It is good to be Tzar...
Nov 1999
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quote:

In the corrupted government I made nukes half price because even until the 1980's the USSR always seemed to be able to make more and more missles even though their economy was squashed.

Krushkhev: "We make missles like sausages!"

...when he said that, sausages were rare...

CornMaster
Chieftain
Ft. Pierce, Flordia, USA
May 2000
posted July 20, 2000 14:43   Click Here to See the Profile for CornMasterClick Here to Email CornMaster  send a private message to CornMasterSend a Message to UIN: 20706862 Visit CornMaster's Homepage!
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quote:

Originally posted by phunny pharmer on 07-19-2000 05:12 PM
Possibly a continuation of communism, but just the opposite of "corrupted" communism. High tax, extreme science penalty, low productivity, nukes like crazy, ignores all sanctions/diplomatic penalties

Another point- Democracy should actually have elections every 2/4/6/8/whatever years.


Why should only Communist get a bonus in nukes??? And get such a high penalties on science and production??? The Communists in Russia had excellent production before the depression and after WWII. They also put the first satalitte into space, and the first man. It's convenient how people tend to only think of the bad things about Communism.

And if I'm correct the USA (Democracy, kept people happy through propaganda) had a lot of nukes as well if not more. The leaders of the country are what makes the country good, or bad. Communism is a utopian society so why should it have a bonus from producing nukes?? If you use Communism in the Civ 3 it will have to be similar to it's form in Civ 2 or it won't be realistic.

Added: Oh yeah I forgot I like the part about elections every few years, but how could you do this in the game?? If some options were automated and controlled by the AI, then depending on who gets elected the AI would control it's part differently. This would be a nice touch.


------------------
"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
"If the great Emperors of Rome, Egypt and Greece were alive today, do you think they would prefer Coke or Pepsi?"
[This message has been edited by CornMaster (edited July 20, 2000).]

Dalgetti
Warlord
Haifa , Israel
Apr 2000
posted July 20, 2000 16:28   Click Here to See the Profile for DalgettiClick Here to Email Dalgetti  send a private message to DalgettiSend a Message to UIN: 64477545
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Communism :
I think the great difference should be made by the courthouse which will represent the control of the goverment . the support costs of it will be huge ,though .... like .... 25 gold ?

take a look .

without courthouse :
corruption and waste as in monarchy
trade as in monarchy
food as in monarchy
science as in monarchy
support units as in despotism


maybe some goverment types should be changed by I dont see any substition in the current system

Dalgetti


------------------
Prepare to Land !

Shadowstrike
Chieftain
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Jul 2000
posted July 20, 2000 20:02   Click Here to See the Profile for ShadowstrikeClick Here to Email Shadowstrike  send a private message to Shadowstrike
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I think the best government system is the modular ones found in SMAC. Expanded, it would provide a useful government generation engine for Civilization III. While we can point at governments from history and say this one worked and that didn't, but when you're instituting it you have no idea of the outcome. After all, did Karl Marx know what would become of his Communust Manifesto?

Aditionally, your choice of government should be subject to "corruption", that is changed without your intervention. This may or may not be helpful. Just think of it as popular opinion.

Shadowstrike
Chieftain
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Jul 2000
posted July 20, 2000 20:03   Click Here to See the Profile for ShadowstrikeClick Here to Email Shadowstrike  send a private message to Shadowstrike
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[double post]
[This message has been edited by Shadowstrike (edited July 21, 2000).]
Christantine The Great
Settler
Royal Palace, Chrisonian Capital Christantinople
Jun 2000
posted July 20, 2000 23:30   Click Here to See the Profile for Christantine The GreatClick Here to Email Christantine The Great  send a private message to Christantine The Great
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I don't think that the Social Engineering model should be used in Civ III because of one important reason. In SMAC there were not civilizations but factions. A faction is run by one common ideology. A civilization is created when a group of people live and grow into one singular culture, usually sharing one religion. Since there is no ideology guiding the civs in Civ II than there is the possibilty that the stupid AI would chose an incompatiable way of life (A Republic under a communist economy) since it does not know what it should do. In SMAC you are starting out on a fresh world but not a fresh culture. In Civ III you will be cleaning the slate of the entire history and rewriting it your own way, limited only by the tech tree so it would be very hard to make a social model different from the one history presents us. I hope you see my point.

------------------
"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

Napoleon I
Chieftain
Los Angeles
Feb 2000
posted July 20, 2000 23:49   Click Here to See the Profile for Napoleon IClick Here to Email Napoleon I  send a private message to Napoleon ISend a Message to UIN: 19378612
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Christantine:

Actually, the example that you gave can be implemented perfectly. I think that you are falling into the trap of considering Communism to be a political system that existed or continues to exist in certain countries. In reality, that is not so. Communism was designed as an economic system that was intended to be used in republics, specifically England and France.

There is, however, a very important reason why the SE system of SMAC should not be used in Civ3. That reason is the fact that this system is entirely unrealistic. After all, you are given the power to instantly change the attitudes of your people from militaristic to green or something. If we want a game that will do a better job of immitating the way real world works, then a system such as SE should be banned entirely. Government effects should be bundled together in some way, so as to forbid such creations as a nature - loving, wealth oriented, fundamentalist state, for example.

Let us not forget that most transitions from government to governmnet have ended up as very bloody and dividing affairs and I'm afraid that the upheaval cost in SMAC doesn't quite cover it.

Now I'm just going to crawl under the table, and wait for the rotten apples from all the SE lovers to start flying towards me.

------------------
Napoleon I

Par4
King
of The Righteous Right
May 2000
posted July 21, 2000 00:47   Click Here to See the Profile for Par4   send a private message to Par4Send a Message to UIN: 73426191
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I don't see why we can't have SE. Countries can have different kinds of economies. Why can't a monarchy have socialist, or free market, or green economy?? Just make it so the people have to choose.

------------------
King Par4!!

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai

Deathwalker
Chieftain
Britain
Mar 2000
posted July 21, 2000 06:28   Click Here to See the Profile for DeathwalkerClick Here to Email Deathwalker  send a private message to Deathwalker Visit Deathwalker's Homepage!
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Myself, I am not sure what sould go into Civ 3's goverment section, though I would Like to see more choice and facters that effect it's success. Because not all comunist or republic goverment operate the same. So this should be taken into account.

------------------
I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

Stefu
Emperor
Schemperor
b.02-15-99
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I think that there should be kind of SE, but only with two categories - Goverment and Economic. Goverment having such as Despotism, Monarchy, Totalitarianism and Democracy, Economic having Mercantilism and Communism and so on. I agree with Napoleon I that changing values is unrealistic - however, economic and goverment styles change.

Also, goverments should be more than bunch of modifiers - there should be some special rules for some goverments (like no unhappy citizens under Fundamentalism in Civ2, for instance.)

The Joker
Warlord
Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
posted July 21, 2000 15:12   Click Here to See the Profile for The JokerClick Here to Email The Joker  send a private message to The Joker
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Great once again to see some interest in SE.

To everybody here: Check out the SE Model's thread in the ideas for Firaxis forum. There you will find any idea you could think of debated to death.

I hope that you guys will actually start making SE models yourselves, as we did back in our days (about 9 months ago).

Personally I have now moved beyond the SE level, as I feel that the people should have a mind of their own, with you having to take their wishes into thought when doing things.

Check out the Alternative Civs forum (at the bottom of the list of forums) a few weeks back - the "Clash and OC3: Governments" thread for information.

Of cause if you really want to have your ideas be taken into consideration for a Civ game you should post some ideas or comment on those already present in the Alternative Civs forum. Me and some others are trying to actually develop our own Civ game (OpenCiv3), which we want to make the ultimate civ-type game. Of cause this is a somewhat wild goal, but although we're all volunteers we do have some professional programmers and us designers have a lot of revolutionary ideas. The game will be completely open and completely free.

Well, ciao!

Dalgetti
Warlord
Haifa , Israel
Apr 2000
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oh man ..... never played SMAC .....
phunny pharmer
Chieftain
La Jolla, Ca, US
Jun 2000
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Par4: this is a test =

Hey, I just want everyone to know that I do not mean to single out communism. With my "Atlas Shrugged" capitalism, I voluntarily will attack any form of government I want. And for that matter, I would attack all governments. However, as this thread seems to be focused on communism and SE, I will save my comments on the other governments (ones that are and are not in the game) for another thread.

Modular governments are both good and bad. They are unrealistic (because governments can be created that are paradoxes, eg fundimentalist-knowlege based governments. However, they allow players to combine strengths and weaknesses to fit their styles. For that reason, I want to see SE choices.

However, choices made in the new SE should be much more binding. The AI should 'average' the government changes that you have made in the past, and treat that like a reputation. Thus, if you were in a police state for seventy years but changed to a democracy ten turns ago, Lal should not deal with you as kindly. In short- stop the human from running in circles around the AI.

Also, make the computer use the SE intelligently. For instance (from a real game that I played): Lal, the computer AI, was getting whipped by Yang, another computer AI. The two wouldn't talk because neither would change their respective social engineering (I had infiltrated both of them). Lal was destroyed. Lesson for the computer to learn: If another faction is kicking your ass, well change your ideology to one that they agree with. The first rule in civ3 should be survival.

Shadowstrike
Chieftain
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Jul 2000
posted July 21, 2000 17:33   Click Here to See the Profile for ShadowstrikeClick Here to Email Shadowstrike  send a private message to Shadowstrike
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Generally, some of SMAC's modular choices were totally impossible ie. funamentalism and knowledge. This should change for Civ 3. Basically, some governments won't go with some module and some modules won't go with others.

Napoleon: I think the bloodless revolution problem is addressed in the "Revolutions" thread in this forum

Father Beast
Warlord
American Fork, UT USA
Feb 2000
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Christantine,
Thanks for starting this thread. here's my take on Fundamentalism, which I think is too powerful. (as those who frequent the civ2 gen forum know)
I think Fundamentalism should take a trade hit. I.E. no tithes, and despotic like limitations on trade generation. maybe cut revenue from trade routes in half. this would simulate the resistance to outside ideas (already accounted for by the science hit) and items (it's sort of unfaithful to buy imports made by infidels).
keeping everything else the same, that sould balance it out. right now the only hit is in science, which I don't care about after I've discovered everything, or can get it by conquering.
UltraSonix
Warlord
Melbourne, Australia
May 2000
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quote:


Generally, some of SMAC's modular choices were totally impossible ie. funamentalism and knowledge. This should change for Civ 3. Basically, some governments won't go with some module and some modules won't go with others.


That should be easy to fix up.

Also, I haven't read the aforementioned other thread on SE (am really pushed for time), but I've got to say, even if it is a tad unrealistic, it's a very fun additon to the gameplay. It realy spices up the game.

(And why can't civs have specific ideals - just like the Mongols of the ?12th? century were hell-bent on conquest, the 16th century British/Spanish/Portugese/etc were focused on exploration, and the US of now is focused on $$$ , civs in civ3 should be able to have SE.)

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

Evil Capitalist
Warlord
Without Portfolio
Jul 2000
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Here are my suggestions:
govt form:
Autocracy, oligarchy, democracy, fundamentalism
market economy:
Primative, Communist, Capitalist, Mercantilist
ideology
Military, Financial, Intellectual, Industrial

This should cover most governments. Obviously contradictions would exclude one another, eg fundamentalist intellectual, communist oligarchy

UltraSonix
Warlord
Melbourne, Australia
May 2000
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Evil Capitalist's list of SE choices above was excellent. The only minor gripe is that I think there should be a gove type between "Autocracy, oligarchy, democracy" and "fundamentalism". Maybe it could be a religion-cross-democracy, a bit like, say Malaysia, where the Islam has great influence, and yet the country is not fundamentalist.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

Evil Capitalist
Warlord
Without Portfolio
Jul 2000
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quote:

Originally posted by UltraSonix on 07-22-2000 09:43 AM
Maybe it could be a religion-cross-democracy, a bit like

You're right, I only thought of fundamentalism to make up the numbers. Perhaps there could be a group of yes/no choices, of which fundamentalism could be one. Public health could be another. That would exclude the other sections.

The Joker
Warlord
Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
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Sorry. Double post.
[This message has been edited by The Joker (edited July 22, 2000).]
The Joker
Warlord
Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
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That's it!

To give you guys some help in the development of your SE Models, to prevent you from reinventing the wheel and to show just how AMAZINGLY accurate and advanced you can actually make an SE Model I am now posting M@ni@c's SE Model, which was propably the most advanced of them.

But there are 3 or 4 other models (mine included) availible at the SE Models thread and at the older SE thread at the ideas forum.

You will be surprised just how incredible this model is.

Of cause it is still really old (6 months or so), and both M@ni@c and myself has, as I have previously mentioned, moved beyond the SE level, so the model could still be improved a lot. I leave this up to you!

quote:


A SE model.
By M@ni@c

This model tries to give a solution to a very large problem: how to adapt Alpha Centauri’s Social Engineering screen in the more complex earth societies. While almost everyone agreed that the Social Engineering screen ( for now on, called SE in short ) is a better system than Civ I & Civ II government options, the methods in which we hope to achieve this are widely different from one another.
So, in a nutshell, my own opinion.

Sections:

1. Concepts that are used in the model
2. List of SE Factors
3. The model itself and some other SE related topic


1. Concepts that are used in the model

This section contains:

1.1. The x10 system
1.2. SE switching

1.1. The x10 system

When trying to find a solution for the Industry cheat in SMAC, I came up with the solution of doing everything in Civ3 x10. That means that now a grassland would produce 20 food instead of 2, but citizens should also need 20 food every turn. Same for labor/resources and trade. Trade x10 means also taxes, science and luxuries x10…
After a while it became clear that x10 can do much more than just solve the Industry cheat problem. For example you can have techs that increase your overall food production of squares with 10%.
Or you can give units a different support, so you can show the difference between Riflemen and Tank support. Now you can represent that units need food and gold as their pay.
In short, there are many applications and therefore I think x10 must be in Civ3.

1.2.SE switching

1.2.1) Changing your SE choices in SMAC was too easy. With just paying a little money, you could be Democracy the first turn, Police State the second and the third turn Fundamentalist without any problem. Therefore I suggest that SE switching takes something longer, 3 turns. Of course there should be some penalty for switching larger than some money, because that doesn’t stop people from regular switching. My suggestion:
0th turn: old bonuses and old penalties
1st and 2nd turn: old bonuses, old and new penalties
3rd turn: new bonuses and new penalties

1.2.2) This counts for SE switching in every category except Government. There you are Anarchy for three turns before installing another Government choice.

1.2.3) However then SE switching is still too easy. Using the idea of Education can solve this. Besides that it would replace Science when it comes to research, it should also have the following use. Education points are gathered the same way as Science. You just allocate a certain percentage of your trade to it.

1.2.4) You should have gathered a certain amount of Education points before you can successfully make a SE switch. Changing your SE choice for Government and Economy should require the most Education points. The other some less. If you haven’t gathered a good amount of points and you still change a SE choice, there is a big chance that some cities will revolt and form a new civ. This is also affected by your SE Happiness rate.
The number of points necessary for a SE switch should be:

X * Population

Where:

X is a number dependent on 1) which SE category you want to change and 2) which difficulty level you’re playing on.
Population is how many population units your civ has.
So how many cities will revolt is dependent on how many population units you didn’t convince/educate.

2. List of SE Factors

My proposed model uses an expanded list of Factors than SMAC. All what was in SMAC is here: but this model also controls many other factors and effects. Therefore it is impossible to reduce the list to ten factors as in SMAC, as some people wanted. However, there was no beta-testing and game play balancing. The numbers and actual bonus the Factors and options grant is, naturally, completely unbalanced. I only try to give by this model the sense of direction.
So, here are my suggested 14 Factors. In some cases I am very precise and give effects for every possible rate. In other cases I just give one example and for the rest I use…

The Factors:

1. Police
2. Military
3. Nationalism
4. Happiness
5. Experience
6. Growth
7. Centralization
8. Environment
9. Research
10. Taxes
11. Economy
12. Relations
13. Bureaucracy
14. Senate

Elaborate explanations:

With most factors there is also some information that has nothing to do with SE itself, but that is necessary to fully understand the factor.

2.1. Police (Pol)


2.1.1) Declaring a Purge means all people become content for ten turns, similar to SMAC nerve staple. However, unlike in SMAC, the effects wouldn’t lessen after repeated use.
A purge is an atrocity in modern times after the UN has been established.

2.1.2) In all Civ versions I wondered why airplanes caused unhappiness. The reason a manual gave me was that it was because the pilots had to do practice flights and were always in the air. That caused unhappiness. But IMHO that isn’t a reason.
As long as a democracy (Western countries) is bombarding another nation (Serbia, Iraq) there is no problem. It's only when they want to send ground troops and the boys of the country itself can get killed, there comes trouble. That's why I think Air units should cause less unhappiness. This is also a way to make Bombers more useful if you have a negative Police rate. Another benefit of Air units is that you could send them to an enemy without permission of your pact nations (see –7 and –8 Pol rates).

2.1.3) With allies I mean simple allies.
With pact nations I mean civs that are in your multistate-coalition (e.g. NATO, probably possible in Civ3). There should be at least 4 civs to have a coalition.

2.1.4) There should be a council proposal ŕ la SMAC possible to or not to allow nuke use.

2.1.5) About territory. I think even if there aren’t sea bases in Civ3, there should be sea borders. 1 square away in ancient times after the tech discovery of the Sail. Two in renaissance after the tech discovery of the Compass. Three in modern times.

2.1.6) Several people said that even under Democracy, police is still used. To represent that I would give the Police Station City Improvement a ‘makes one unhappy citizen content’ effect, no matter what your Police rate is.

+4: 3 units can act as police. Police effect doubled. May use Purge.

+3: 3 units can act as police. Police effect doubled. Can’t use purge.

+2: 3 units can act as police, each keeping one unhappy citizen content.

+1: 2 units can act as police

0: 1 unit can act as police

-1: No police. (This also counts for all lower Police rates)

-2: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
All units in allied territory never cause unhappiness.
Every unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone.

-3: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
All units in allied territory never cause unhappiness.
Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone.
Every air unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone.

-4: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Every land or sea unit in your allies’ territory, but not in one of their cities, cause one drone.
All air units beyond the first in your allies’ territory cause one drone.
Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies’ territory causes two drones.
All air units beyond the first out of your or your allies’ territory cause one drone.

-5: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Every unit in allied territory, but not in one of their cities, causes one drone.
Land and sea units out of your or your allies’ territory cause two drones.
Air units out of your or your allies’ territory cause one drone.

-6: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Units not in your territory cause two drones.
(This also counts for all lower police rates)

-7: You (or your senate, depends on your Senate rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
˝ must agree.

-8: You (or your senate, depends on your Senate rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
2/3 must agree.

2.2. Military (Mil)


2.2.1) This is actually a combination of two factors that were earlier separated: Support and Military Industry.
To reduce the number of factors and because they are about the same thing –army- they have been melted together.

2.2.2) I think units should have a different support. Transports or Explorers won't need as much support as Battleships or Knights. This is easy to do with the x10 system.

2.2.3) For every +Military, one less resource is needed to support the unit.
For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with +4 Military it would only require 6 resources.

2.2.4) For every -Military, one more resource is needed to support the unit.
For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with -4 Military it would only require 14 resources.

2.2.5) This means that units free of support are impossible unless you have a very high Military rate.
This solves the ICS problem of “one size ten cities gives me 3 free units while ten size one cities give me 30 free units”.

2.2.6) For –1 Military and every higher Military rate, when you found a new city you get 100 (x10!) labor/resources for free, unless a new City Foundation model is used, e.g. Radical Ideas 11.3).

2.2.7) Military also affects your labor (see more in the Economy/Trade thread for more explanation about Labor and Resources) output when producing units with 10% per + or -.
If your normal labor output is 200 labor, when producing e.g. a Howitzer it would increase to 220 if you have +1 Military.
This is to solve the Industry cheat in SMAC where the cost of units, buildings and secret projects was directly affected.

2.2.8) And if idea 4.16) of the Technology thread is used, the research speed of the Military category is also affected.


+1: +10% Labor production bonus when producing military units.; one less resource needed for support; research in Military Research category increased with 10%.
0: normal
-1: -10% Labor production penalty when producing military units.; one more resource needed for support; research decreased with 10%.

2.3. Nationalism (Nat)


2.3.1) For this factor I am assuming there is a migration model in Civ3 (Radical Ideas 11.3)).
For more information on Conviction (=religious defense), see the Religion thread summary.
I am also assuming there will be atrocities and international punishments like trade embargoes.

+6: +75% Conviction for your state religion if you have one or for all religions in your empire if you are Religious Freedom.
No emigration possible
No bribing possible
No international punishment for atrocities

+5: +67% Conviction
Very very low emigration
No bribing
Very very low punishment for atrocities

+4: +50% Conviction
Very low emigration
No bribing
Very low punishment for atrocities

+3: +37% Conviction
Low emigration
+75% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
Lower punishment for atrocities

+2: +25% Conviction
Lower emigration
+50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions

+1: +12% Conviction
Slightly lower emigration
+25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions

0: normal

-1: -12% Conviction
-25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions

-2: -25% Conviction
-50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions

-3: -37% Conviction
-50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions

2.4. Happiness (Hap)


2.4.1) Your Happiness rate determines how long it takes for conquered cities to assimilate to your culture and cause less happiness.
In SMAC it was 50 turns. For every +Happiness you have more than the city of the previous owner, the city needs 10 less turns to assimilate.
Per –Happiness, it’s ten turns more. Means more unhappiness and increases the likeliness of revolting and forming a new civ. Also if you conquer a city of a civ with a higher Hap rate, there appear Partisans.
2.4.2) If a majority of the citizens of the conquered city follow your state religion, they are immediately assimilated.

2.4.3) Happiness affects how many citizens are automatically ‘born’ content in a city before unhappy citizens appear. Note this is an addition to the normal first-unhappiness rule (e.g. Chieftain = 7) and it is NOT the same as the unhappiness effects because of a too large empire.

2.4.4) Normally you should be able to set the amount of trade you allocate for luxuries on a maximum of 50%. Happiness rate should affect this. So if you have e.g. a Happiness rate of –4, it should be practically impossible for you to mend the unhappy citizens by high luxury rates.

2.4.5) The Happiness rate affects how much money it costs to bribe units/cities.

2.4.6) The effectiveness of the Entertainer special citizen is also affected.

2.4.7) If 4.16) of the Technology thread is used, Happiness affects the research speed of the Social/Philosophical category.


+2: luxuries can be set at 70%; bribing 25% cheaper; Entertainers give 20% more luxuries; Social/Philosophical Research 20% faster
+1: Less unhappy citizens; 60%; bribing 12% cheaper; Entertainers +10%; Research 10% faster
0: luxury rate can be set at 50%
-1: More unhappy citizens; 40%; bribing 12% more expensive; Entertainers –10%; Research 10% slower

2.5. Experience (Exp)


2.5.1) Necessary for this social factor to work is off course that the Morale distinction of SMAC is used.
I don’t like the word Commando to express the experience level of a unit, so these are my proposed names.
Very Green
Green
Disciplined
Trained
Hardened
Veteran
Elite

2.5.2) This SE factor does also affect the Experience of Spies and Diplomats, since good armies always have too a good intelligence, espionage and reconnaissance. Spy/Diplomat Experience also affects their success rate in missions.

2.5.3) In SMAC all the units got a Morale bonus if you e.g. switched to Power. I would change it. Only the units build under the +Experience regime get the bonus and even if after that you change to a choice with –Experience, that units keep the Experience bonus. The opposite is also true. If you build units when you have a bad Experience rate, they don’t get an Experience bonus when you switch to e.g. Power. So cheating like only switching to Value – Power or Army – Professional when you are in war should have no positive effect on your already built units.



+1: +1 Experience
0: normal Experience
-1: -1 Experience
-2: -1 Experience; positive combat modifiers halved
-3: -2 Experience; + modifiers halved

2.6. Growth (Gro)


2.6.1) This determines how much your people tend to go from the countryside to the cities = their willingness to live in a huge city (in other words your population limit) and it determines how much rows must be filled to let the city grow (similar to SMAC).

2.6.2) I think cities should continue to grow even if there is no aqueduct or similar building in the city. My Growth Factor is based on it. The drawback would be that all people not having sufficient clean water (=Aqueduct, Sewer System) or living space (=Apartment Blocks, Arcology) become Revolutionaries = very unhappy citizens. Too many Revolutionaries can cause a city to revolt and form a new civ.

2.6.3) City size 7 or 8: Aqueduct needed (if you have 0 Gro as your Growth rate)
12/14 Sewer System (not the modern one that came much too early in Civ2, but something like the Roman Cloaca = sewerage.
20: Apartment Block
30: Arcology
40: Super Arcology? Or perhaps there should be a building for 40, to simulate population pressure.

2.6.4) I think in the early parts of the game, so I mean until the Modern Age, population boom should be impossible. This is as much cheating as ICS. So the pop boom problem of ‘Democracy-Planned-Children’s Crčche’ in SMAC and ‘Democracy + high luxuries’ in Civ2 should also be solved.
My solution: Not +6 Gro, but +10 Gro should cause pop boom. Of course, with SE alone, it isn’t possible to get that.
+2 Gro each = Fundamentalism, Utopia, Socialism SE choices
+3 Gro each = Granary, Hospital
Golden Age = +2 Gro
Since Utopia, Fundamentalism and the Hospital city improvement are only available in the modern/near future age, 10 Gro is impossible until in the Modern Age.

2.6.5) A Granary and a Hospital should only affect the # of rows that must be filled to let the city grow, not the pop limit.

+10: Cities have a population boom every turn if sufficient Food is available in your city/region/civ (depends on what food system is used.

+6: +6 Population limit; only 4 rows must be filled to let a city increase in size

+1: +1 Population limit; only 9 rows must be filled to let a city increase in size
0: normal
-1: -1 pop limit; 11 rows must be filled.


2.6.6) Or in another growth system (I think city growth by surplus food is totally unrealistic), like birth/die/immigration/emigration the SE Growth factor should increase the # of children a family on an average has, thus increasing the birth rate.

2.7. Centralization (Cen)


2.7.1) For every +Centralization, the Irrigation/Farm Terrain Improvements produces 10% more food and you produce also 10% more labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world

2.7.2) For every –Centralization, the Irrigation and Farm TI produces 10% more food and you produce also 10% less labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world


+1: +10% food output of Irrigation/Farm TI’s; +10% Labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world
0: normal
-1: -10% food output of Irrigation/Farm TI’s; -10% Labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world

2.7.3) Notes:
1) Using everythingx10 model
2) Other ways to increase Food production can be Technologies:
E.g. in the beginning of the game an Irrigation yields +8 extra Food.
-Pottery: +1 Food for Irrigation TI.
-Horse Plowing: +1 " " " "
-Crop Rotation: +1 “ “ “ “
This allows a more gentle and realistic increase in food production than the rude and sudden Despotism in Civ2 and Gene Splicing in SMAC.

2.8. Environmentalism (Env)


2.8.1) There should be three types of pollution: industrial, population pollution (as in Civ2) and nuclear pollution. The Environment factor can increase or decrease industrial and population pollution.

2.8.2) Environment should also increase or decrease the likeliness of plagues, diseases, natural disasters, etc…

2.8.3) Environment increases or decreases the production of Forests, Jungles or any tree terrain type with 10% per + or – rate.

2.8.4) If idea 4.16) of the Tech summary is used, Environment should in/decrease the research speed in the Biology/Farming category.

+1: Less pollution; less natural disruption; 10% more forest production; 10% faster Biology/Farming research
0: normal pollution rate
-1: More pollution; more natural disruption; 10% less forest production; 10% slower Biology/Farming research.

2.9. Research (Res)


2.9.1) Without SE changes you can set your amount of trade used for Science to 70%.
If the Education system is used, you can set the trade used for Education to 30%.

2.9.2) I am in favor of simultaneous research in each category. In that case, Research should only affect the research speed of Academic techs. Without simultaneous research, it should affect all research.

2.9.3) The Research SE Factor affects the bonus, a Library/University/Research Lab yields. This counts certainly if simultaneous research is used. Cause without this, the Research SE Factor would be too useless.

2.9.4) Your Res rate should affect how much science icons a Scientist Special citizen generates. Unless an Education system is used. Then a Scientist should increase the bonus yielded by Library/Univ/Res Lab.

+1: +10% (Academic?) Research; you may set your trade allocated to science at 80% or your Education at 40%; Scientists generate 10% more Science or they add a bonus to the science building bonuses
0: normal science accumulation; trade 70%
-1: -10% (Academic?) Research; Science 60%/Education 20%; Scientists generate 10% less Science or give a smaller bonus

2.10. Taxes (Tax)

2.10.1) Normal amount of trade you can allocate to Taxes is 70%.

2.10.2) If you have e.g. a tax income of 20 gold and a Tax rate of +2, you get 22 Gold.

2.10.3) Your Tax rate affects how much Gold a Taxmen Special citizen generates.

...
+1: +10% tax income; maximum tax allocation 80%; Taxmen generate 10% more Tax
0: normal Tax income; maximum tax allocation 70%
-1: -10% tax income; maximum tax allocation 60%; Taxmen generate 10% less Tax

2.11. Economy (Eco)


2.11.1) In SMAC +1 Economy was +1 Energy/base. That may be a nice bonus in the beginning of the game. But later in the game it means nothing. The x10 system can correct this, since it can make the Economy factor a bit more linear.

2.11.2) The capitals of civs should get 10 more trade.

2.11.3) To me, in SMAC the Economy bonuses above +2 were not worth the many negatives related to it. I solved it by giving +4 Economy another big bonus.

2.11.4) If simultaneous research is used, the Economy SE Factor affects the Research speed of the Economy/Applied category.

2.11.5) I would make economic cycling (=booms and busts in the economy) intrinsic to a high Economy rate instead of making it an independent factor as in The Joker’s model.

+5: +24 trade/square; 50% faster Applied/Economic research
+4: +20 trade/square; 40%
+3: +12 trade/square; 30%
+2: +10 trade/square; 20%
+1: +2 trade/square; 10%
0: normal trade production
-1: -1 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 10% slower Applied/Economic Research
-2: -3 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 20%
-3: -4 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 30%
-4: -5 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 40%


2.12. Relations (Rel)


2.12.1) Note that Relations, not Economy as in SMAC gives a trade bonus.

2.12.2) The commerce bonus is the same as in SMAC. A +10 trade bonus for every trade route.

2.12.3) Of course, the relations you have with other civs should be determined mainly by your similar/different SE choices.

2.12.4) If you have a high Relation rate, an embassy with a civ would give more information. The opposite counts for negative Rel rates.


+1: +1 commerce; better diplomatic relationships; more embassy information
0: normal
-1: -1 commerce; worse diplomatic relationships; less embassy information

2.13. Bureaucracy (Bur)


2.13.1) The better your Bureaucracy rate, the less trade you loose by cities far away from your capital (So no waste in Civ3). If the cities are connected with a road to the capital, there is slightly less corruption.

2.13.2) After you have founded/conquered a certain number of cities there appear some more unhappy citizens in random cities in your empire. Bureaucracy affects that # cities.


2.14. Senate (Sen)


2.14.1) I think that AI civs should also have a reputation. The Senate would be less willing to sign a peace treaty with a civ with a bad reputation.


+1: SE switching takes less education.
0: normal
-1: your Senate signs a truce or a peace treaty 25% of the time (unless that civ has a bad reputation); the Senate forbids you to sneak-attack an enemy 25% of the time.
-2: 50% Senate interference
-3: 75% Senate interference
-4: 100% Senate interference

3. The Model itself and some other SE related topics


3.0.1) This model shows all the options the player may select on the SE screen.
For certain choices I have provided more than one name to make clearer what I mean with the choice. I also give an explanation for some factors, except if they were already explained in an earlier similar SE choice or if the reason is obvious. Firaxians, if you don’t get the reason why I gave a choice a certain factor, it isn’t forbidden to visit the Apolyton forums from time to time.

3.0.2) I didn’t use evolutions as in Harel’s model because choices just don’t disappear after you have discovered a certain techs. E.g. although they could certainly be Totalitarianism, certain Middle-East states are still an Absolute Monarchy. And why wouldn’t we be able to return to Laissez-faire (confer Transnational in Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson)?
The only two choices I would like to become obsolete are Barter and Manorialism.
Barter would be replaced by Currency and Manorialism by War economy.

The model contains 5 categories:

List of SE categories:

1. Government
2. Economy
3. Structure
4. Value
5. Army

and also

6. Golden Age
7. Choice availability

3.1. Government

Anarchy: -3 Hap, -3 Nat, -3 Cen (no Labor, Taxes, Science, Education or Luxuries generated)
Warrior-King/Chieftainship: +1 Pol, -1 Hap (default choice)
Absolute Monarchy: +2 Pol, +2 Sen, +1 Cen, -2 Bur
Totalitarianism: +2 Pol, +2 Mil, +2 Sen, -2 Hap, -1 Bur
Dynasty: +2 Rel, +1 Pol, -2 Tax
Parliamentary Monarchy: +2 Bur, +2 Tax, -2 Mil, -1 Sen

Theocracy*: +2 Nat, +2 Tax, -2 Res
Fundamentalism*: +2 Nat, +2 Gro, +1 Exp, -2 Res, -2 Rel
*You can build Cleric units under these government forms.

Direct Democracy/Tribal Assembly: +2 Hap, -1 Bur, -1 Sen
Republic/Oligarchy: +2 Bur, +2 Cen, -2 Pol, -1 Sen
Representative Democracy: +2 Bur, +2 Hap, +2 Res, -2 Sen, -2 Pol, -1 Mil

Notes where necessary:

3.1.1) Anarchy is by no means a valid option: you can't select Anarchy nor do you start with it as your first option. It may apply to single cities that riot, or to all your society in the duration of a SE Government switch.

3.1.2) Warrior-King is the earliest choice, because the Indo-European tradition is a king or leader who has to be ratified by the warrior/military class of the society. Historical vestiges of this are the acclamation of the Macedonian kings (like Philip and Alexander) by the Macedonian Army and the Witan or Widan assembly ratifying the early Germanic kings.

3.1.3) A Dynasty has +2 Rel because they can marry off their daughters to other civ’s leaders, which can create a family bond.

3.1.4) Parliamentary Monarchies as in England after Petition and Declaration of Rights, not the present monarchies-democracies in Europe.

3.1.5) Direct Democracy should be available shortly after Warrior-King. It can be handy if you have a perfectionist empire or if you are playing a One City Challenge game.

3.1.6) Let’s make this clear. With Republic, I don’t mean a state with a president as leader, which seems to be the definition in the USA. A president is counted under Representative Democracy. I mean a non-monarchial government.

3.2. Economy


Barter: -2 Cen (default choice)
->Currency: no positives or negatives
Autarky/Manorialism: +2 Mil, +1 Pol, -2 Cen
->War economy: +3 Mil, +2 Pol, +2 Sen, -3 Cen
Guilds: +2 Bur, +2 Gro, -2 Env, -1 Eco
Mercantilism: +2 Tax, +2 Cen, -2 Rel

Planned/Communism: +3 Cen, +2 Nat, -2 Bur
Utopia: +2 Hap, +2 Gro, +2 Env, -2 Eco

Capitalism: +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Mil, -1 Sen
Corporate/Free Market: +2 Eco, +2 Bur, -5 Pol, -3 Env, -1 Sen
Laissez-faire: +3 Eco, +2 Rel, -7 Pol, -3 Env, -2 Sen

[/b]Notes:[/b]

3.2.1) To make it more realistic and to propose another drawback for ICS’ers, I suggest certain Urbanization is needed for the more advanced choices. The simple formula for Urbanization is:

# population / # cities

If the result of this calculation drops below a certain number, certain Economy choices should become unavailable. Barter, Currency and Autarky/Manorialism would always be available. Mercantilism requires something more. Then the state controlled systems: Planned and Utopia. The 3 free market choices should require the highest urbanization.

3.2.2) The –2 Cen penalty of Barter is an incentive to get a better Economy (eg Currency) as fast as possible.

3.2.3) Examples of certain choices:
Manorialism in the early Middle Ages. Guilds in the later Middle Ages. Mercantilism has as perfect example Colbertism, but it was further used by many European states in the 18th century (so I do not agree with Harel's explanations of these choices).
Capitalism are the early free markets, as with the Italian city states or the Phoenician empire. Corporate is the present economical system. Laissez-faire was in the previous century and the first decades of the 20th. And with Planned I mean the Russian system. I (and many others) hesitate to call it right out Communism because the USSR is a bad example for that matter, since they never realized the Marxist ideal. Real communism would have radically different stats.

3.3. Structure


Unitary/Imperial: +1 Pol, +2 Nat, +2 Sen, -1 Bur, -1 Hap
Feudal: +2 Tax, +2 Mil, +1Sen, -2 Gro
City State: -1 Bur (default choice)
Federal: +2 Bur, +1 Nat, -2 Mil, -1 Sen
Confederate/Commonwealth: +2 Hap, +1 Rel, -2 Nat, -2 Sen

3.4. Value


Pacifism: no positives or negatives (default choice)
Imperialism: +2 Mil, +2 Exp, -2 Rel
Wealth: +1 Eco, +1 Cen, -2 Hap
Socialism/Welfare: +2 Hap, +2 Gro, -2 Tax
Environment: +2 Env, +2 Rel, -2 Gro
Knowledge: +2 Res, +1 Bur, -2 Exp

3.5.Army


Tribal Levy: no positives or negatives
(default choice; basically, everyone in the tribe who can carry a rock fights)

Mercenary: +3 Exp, -1 Nat
(+100% gold support for units; but it’s 50% cheaper to bribe barbarians and nomads to join your army)

Professional/Military Caste: +2 Exp, -2 Mil

Recruitment/Conscription: +2 Mil, -2 Exp
(Rush-buying an infantry unit should only cost the double of the actual labor/resources cost.
In civ2 terms, to complete a Riflemen unit would only require 80 gold. Cavalry and Artillery would still be expensive.)

Draft: +1 Hap, +1 Nat, -1 Cen

3.6. Golden Age


3.6.1) The effects of Golden Age (50% of the city’s citizens is happy + no unhappy people) should be:
+1 Eco, +2 Gro, +1 Bur

3.6.2) It was always annoying when you had one citizen too less to have a “We Love The… Day” and didn’t get anything extra; or if practically all your citizens were happy, and you didn’t get anything more than the effects of the normal “We Love The… Day”. Therefore, if the Labor/Resources distinction is used, happy people should produce 50% more Labor. The opposite also counts. Unhappy people should produce 50% less Labor and very unhappy people shouldn’t produce anything.

3.7. Choice availability


I'll type here in what time I think the choices should appear.

3.7.1) Default choices available at the start (assuming Civ3 starts in 4000BC):
Warrior-King, Barter, City State, Survival, Tribal Levy

3.7.2) Become available almost immediately:
Direct Democracy, Currency,

3.7.3) Become available in early Ancient era:
Autarky, Unitary, Power, Professional

3.7.4) Become available in late Ancient era:
Dynasty?, Republic, Capitalism, Confederate (think of the Greeks, Phoenicians and their colonies), Wealth, Mercenary

3.7.5) Become available in the Middle Ages:
Dynasty?, Theocracy, Feudal

3.7.6) Become available in the Renaissance and Enlightment:
Absolute Monarchy, Parliamentary Monarchy, Mercantilism, Socialism, Knowledge

3.7.7) Become available in the Industrial Revolution:
Democracy, Laissez-faire, Federal, Recruitment, War economy

3.7.8) Become available in Modern Age and near future:
Fundamentalism, Planned, Corporate, Utopia (near future), Environment, Draft


M@ni@c


[This message has been edited by The Joker (edited July 22, 2000).]
Theben
Emperor
chicken & spring rolls, please
b.02-15-99
posted July 22, 2000 13:38   Click Here to See the Profile for ThebenClick Here to Email Theben  send a private message to Theben
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I don't think I was able to follow this the 1st time. So could I count on your support to move the links thread over?

To everyone else: Now that Joker's effectively killed this thread, I strongly encourage you to read what has been posted in the past. Not that all ideas aren't helpful, but instead of trying to build an idea "from the ground up", it would be better, IMHO, to add to what has come before.

Father Beast
Warlord
American Fork, UT USA
Feb 2000
posted July 22, 2000 19:43   Click Here to See the Profile for Father BeastClick Here to Email Father Beast  send a private message to Father Beast
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No, I don't think this thread is dead, unless you insist on having SE in civ3.
I personally intend to stick with Christantine's initial proposal and have a choice of governments like before, but a bigger selection and better balance.

Now in scenarios you should be able to design any government you feel like, with all the possibilities mentioned by m@ni@c.
but I have to agree with raingoon, SE doesn't belong in civ3.

The Joker
Warlord
Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
posted July 23, 2000 06:07   Click Here to See the Profile for The JokerClick Here to Email The Joker  send a private message to The Joker
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Theben:

of cause you have my support!


Father Beast:

Well, I actually agree with you that SE shouldn't be in Civ3. But in stead of moving backwards to an oldfascioned and, well, poor system of governments I think that SE should be replaced with something new an advanced. A system, in which the people have power and so they can go against your wishes. It should be even more complex than SE. Check my SI model (a few months back at this forum) for some ideas on how that could be done. Of cause there are better ways of doing it.

And it's funny that you mentioning raingoon as one being against SE. Cause raingon is definately NOT for a rebirth of the ancient government types. If you read his column and the following debate you will know, that he feels the same way as me: that SE should be replaced with something new and fantastic.

Replacing SE with governments would bring nothing good at all, except that it would mean spending less time on macromanagement. But that, at least as far as I'm concerned, is really not a good thing at all.

Shadowstrike
Chieftain
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Jul 2000
posted July 23, 2000 10:36   Click Here to See the Profile for ShadowstrikeClick Here to Email Shadowstrike  send a private message to Shadowstrike
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You know guys, some of these ideas are in the "Revolutions" thread, including the people going against your view to change the government, etc.
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