------------------
King Par4!!

fldmarshallpar4@icqmail.com

I can see it already: a bored, tired player, exausted after hours of clicking on thousands of buttons in hundreds of screens will suddenly stop and ask himself: "What the hell am I playing here? Is this a game, anyway?"

I'm not saying that the trading system shouldn't be changed, but keep the caravans. Maybe automate them, I don't know, but find another sollution. If you forget about the caravans when playing (it happened to me, too) doesn't mean that they are not needed. After all, you never forget the phalanx, right? The problem is that you can ignore the caravans in Civ2. The trade must be far more important in Civ3, so you won't forget the caravans anymore.

Don't Think so.

Yes, the wonder caravan system will have to be changed. However, why would that mean killing the caravans altogether. In the end I would propose having a system that would merge the caravans with the auto-trading system that people talk about. So here it is:

1. The resourse system of Civ2 will be kept. These resources would change as the game progresses, i.e. salt and hyde will be replaced by iron and spices which will be replaced by oil and uranium, for example.

2. Each city will have a certain number of these resources.

3. Trade will exist between each city that does not have identical resources and the amount of trade will depend on the number of different resources that each city has. For example, if two cities have two resources that are the same and one that is different, they will each have two additional trade arrows, while if two cities each has three different resources they would each get six additional trade arrows. This trade will be handled automatically.

4. Trade will also exist with any other civilization that you have established diplomatic relations with. This trade will be conducted on a civ to civ basis, and will also contain a certain scientific bonus that will depend on the size of the civ. This trade would also be handled automatically.

5. Caravans will be able to enhance the automatic trade described above. If a caravan from one of your cities establishes a trade route to one of your cities trade between these cities would be increased. If you send a caravan to another civ you will get a one-time bonus and trade between your two civs will increase.

Sorry, if I stole anybody's ideas here, I really don't mean to . Anyways, I would appreciate some feedback, so write up whatever other ideas you may have.

Calling Civ a boardgame is not introducing a new idea, it is merely stating what it really has always been. Unlike for example SimCity, let alone Quacke and the likes, Civ really is a board game transferred to the computer age. If you would want to, you could literally play the game without the aid of computers. Think about it, everything could be done on a table, with a board, fiches, dices and lots of paperwork. But it's a so much revved up boardgame that it really would become too time-consuming to perform all the actions and calculations manually. Hence it could only be designed for the computer age. (Anybody remember that little legal quarrel Microprose got in with the owners of the actual boardgame 'Civilization'?)
Personally, I don't frown upon the fact that it is in essence a boardgame. On the contrary, I believe it is the reason behind it's succes. It enables all of the individual submodels in the game (military, economic, territorial) to get together on a single board, forcing lots of interaction between them. And it eases a more graphical approach to things, avoiding endless screens with slide-bars and numbers to set, making it a more intuitive rather than number-crunching experience.
If I get called by a foreign ambassador, who wants to discuss war and peace, I'd rather base my answer on seeing that my caravans are in that enemies territory, nearly arrived on their destination cities and surrounded by enemy units, than on a separate cost and profit trade screen where I have to calculate what the exact costs of entering a war would be. The former is just more fun!
The trade system must be enhanced, but it should fit within the limits of the concept of Civ, or else the game might loose that Civvin' feeling.

Napoleon, I'm quite charmed by your third point.

quote: Originally posted by tonic on 07-17-2000 08:52 PM Reading between the lines, it's apparent there is a polarisation of views on Civ3,

Dead right, and that's why CtP never had a chance of not being flamed. Civ 3 is going to be up against the same wall. It's easy to say it doesn't do this and that, but it's another thing to have to come up with the goods yourself, and more importantly, balance everything.