First I decided to label each wonder with a category that represents what it should deal with in Civ 3 (all of these are open for comment and are in no way final).

Categories -
(Religious)Happiness, Political, Economic, Environment, Diplomatic, Units, Trade, Scientific, City

Pyramids - Happiness(Religion)
Colossus - Trade, Happiness(Religion)
Hanging Gardens - Happiness, City
Oracle - Political, Scientific
Great Library - Science(City)
Lighthouse - Naval
Great Wall - Units

Marco Polo's Embassy - Diplomatic, Science
Copernicus' Obeervatory - Science, Naval
Sun Tzu's War Academy - Units, City
Shakesphere's Theatre - Happiness
Magellan's Expedition - Naval
King Richard's Crusade - Units
Michelangelo's Chapel - Happiness

Leonardo's Workshop - Units, City
Eiffel Tower - Trade, Political
Adam Smith's Trading Company - Economic, Trade
Statue of Liberty - Happiness, Political
JS Bach's Cathedral - Happiness
Darwin's Voyage - Science
Issac Newton's College - Science

Women's Sufferage - Happiness, Political
United Nations - Political, Diplomatic
Apollo Program - Science
SETI Program - Science
Cure for Cancer - Science, Happiness
Manhattan Project - City, Units
Hoover Dam - Environmental, City

Ancient

Pyramids - Doubles effect of all temples

Colossus - Adds one trade arrow to every square in city radius, increases happiness by 1 per 5 citizens (+ 20% happiness in city)

Hanging Gardens - Makes all citizens content in city, counts as Granary in every city.

Oracle - Increases science rate by 25%. Civs you are currently in contact with increase 25pts (if using pt scale) happiness with your civ

Great Library - Counts as a library in all cities.

Lighthouse - Sea Units can not be lost at sea (I don't think Trieme's should be able to move off shore at all, but other units should have a chance of being lost at sea before Lighthouse), increase movement by 1.

Great Wall - Barbarians can not enter your borders. Double defense for units stationed in Fortresses.

Medivel

Marco Polo's Embassy - Gives an embassy with two random Civs. You recieve any knowledge possessed by these two civs.

Copernicus' Observatory - Doubles science output of city. Added movement for ships.

Sun Tzu's War Academy - All new units recieves veteran status (all units win battle recieve vet status) Free support for a unit?

Michelangelo's Chapel - Counts as cathedral in all cities

Shakesphere's Theatre - No unrest in city.

Magellan's Expedition - All ships with an explorer recieve +4 movement rate. Explorers recieve +1 walking (+3 because treats all squares as road)

King Richard's Crusade - Free support for Crusaders. Crusaders recieve +50% attack/defense

Industrial

Leonardo's Workshop - Creates a city improvement in all cities which upgrades units (e.g. dragoons to Calvary).

Eiffel Tower - One extra trade arrow in city. Other Civ's Citizens that are below a certain happiness with your civ are shifted to an above average likeness towards your civ.

Adam Smith's Trading Company (Wall St. instead? ~ Christantine) - Pays for all improvements that cost 1 gold (or unit) +50% luxury output. +1 Trade arrow in city.

Statue of Liberty - Under a Democracy/Republic + 1 happiness in every city. Allows switching of governments without unrest.

J.S. Bach's Cathedral - +2 happy people on every city within certain area of city.

Darwin's Voyage - Triples Science output of city. (IMHO the extra 2 advances made this WoW to powerful)

Issac Newton's College - Counts as University in all cities

Modern

Women's Sufferage - Counts as 2 extra happy person in every city. Other Civ's people shift view of you to "cordial" or Civ 3 equivalent

United Nations - Embassy with every Civ. Able to declare war as democracy at any time if Allied wtih a nation. Other Civs view of you increases

*Apollo Program - View of entire map. Counts as a research lab in every city. (No spaceship, we built Apollo in 60s and still no talk of spaceship. I felt this was inaccurate in civ2)

SETI Program - Triple's Science output of city (for all of you Area 51 supporters)

*Cure for Cancer - Double Science output of city, +1 happy citizen in every city.

Hoover Dam - Decreases pollution caused by factories and population by 50% in all cities.

Manhattan Project - counts as Nuke missle factory in every city (if that is in Civ 3). Gives you knowledge of Nuclear Warfare, gives other civs the right to research Nuclear Warfare. (someone suggested this, I'm not taking credit for it)

Future

NORAD - Allows vision of all air units

Human Genome Project - 0% Disease, 50% boost in city's science production

Space Elevator - Decrease in cost of Spaceship parts/or/increase in Spaceship speed.

Damn that was a lot of writing. Ok I'm dying to make changes to this and I'm sure you all have some. I just wanted to combine all of our ideas into one big thread. I'll check back and update tomorrow if any changes are suggested...

* Can be placed in the "future" epoch.

(5/22 - I updated this to show the suggestions for future epoch wonders...)
(Updated 5/23 to include space elevator)

------------------
~~~I am who I am, who I am - but who am I?~~~

I don't really see why we should keep the number of wonders the same as in the previous versions. First of all, if we are going to expand the tech tree then it would make sence to expand the wonders also.

Besides, there is one more reason why I would support greatly enlarging the number of wonders. Under the current system, if a civilization gets really powerful early on then they could build all the wonders for themselves and never relinquish their lead. For example, before Italy was unified in the nineteenth century the Italian states were very weak compared to the other European states. Therefore, in game conditions Leonardo's Workshop would have been built by China or France and not by Italy. So I think that if we are trying to stay historical about things, I think that we should enlarge the number of wonders and make sure that the little guys always have something to work on and catch up.

Aside from that your wonder descriptions sound pretty reasonable. Thanks for all the typing that you had to do to bring that to us.

My other gripe with new wonders is that we're comparing the Pyarmids(Big WoW) to something like The Wright Brother's first flight (no offense intended to whoever suggested that). I was upset that Women's Sufferage and Darwin's Voyage were so powerful in the game, but now I'm used to them. I don't see room for any other WoWs. I know a lot of people are against me.

But back to the topic...

For the current wonders, what should be added/changed/deleted from my list...

I appreciate your argument on the expansion of the wonder list leading to a game where everyone just produces wonders - good thinking in advance. Maybe we should keep the same number of major wonders, and introduce a like number of minor wonders. These wonders produce significant effects, but not on the scale of the Pyramids or Mike's Chapel, and cost half of major wonders.

For instance, to build aircraft, someone must research flight AND build the Wright Brothers Flight. No air units for anyone until one person builds it. Side effects for the builder would be a free air unit and 10% reduced build cost for aircraft until Stealth. What do you think?

Damn, I know I could build a kick ass Civ-style game in my spare time...if I had any...

Venger - I understand what you're saying about minor wonders. But it still results in an enormous amount of time spent building wonders. If we have 28 Major wonders and 16 minor ones (just an estimate, I assumed 4 for each epoch) than there will be 44 wonders that will be built by the end of the game. This requires production, time, and/or money (Gold). I don't think this is realistic.

In Civ 2, I almost always had a city working on a wonder, and I didn't like it. Plus the fact that other civs worked on wonders as well. I'm suggesting that something change about this. That's all.

I like your ideas for the wright brothers flight. But as a WoW (Or minor wonder) it makes production focus on Wonders when I don't think this is the point of Civ at all.

Furthermore, I like the idea of enabling techs. It makes perfect sense to me to have the first Civ to discover flight to recieve a message talking about the Wright Brothers and their first flight. Than you can add the things you spoke of. Why should you have to build something? That's my argument against your proposed "minor wonders". Another example would be the first people to Monotheism with Printing Press (or some relevant tech) would get a message about Gutenberg (sp) publishing the Bible (or other Holy Book. This is assuming religion is implemented in Civ 3)

I hope I have cleared a lot up. I look forward to hearing more comments. Also, bring up ideas listed in other threads about Wonders. I created this thread in order to have a centerplace of WoW discussion.

P.S. Venger - "OrangeSfwr" is a long and irrelevant story so I'll spare you

~~~~~QUOTE~~~~~
I would replace Hoover Dam with "Three gorges dam" (Yangtze River - China, estimated completion 2014)

Going to be the largest manmade dam ever. Creates a giant resivior in mid china causing the relocation of over 2 million people. Anyone hear of this? I think this should replace Hoover Dam because Hoover Dam, although very important, is no where near as Ginormous as the Yangtze River Dam (Three Gorges Dam).

I think it should reduce factory/manufacturing polluition by half. (In real life, by 20% but that's not very good in the game)
~~~~~QUOTE~~~~~~

Christatine brought up the fact that it hasn't been built yet and may be a failure or may never be finished so maybe it shouldn't be in the game. She thinks we should stick to Hoover Dam because it is more well known to Americans.

I don't quite have an opinion yet, any thoughts on this?

tomahawk-------------------------dam
----------------------tomahawk---dam
---------------------------------no more dam

A wonder I want to see after advanced radar or something is NORAD. Common everyone knows this is a god send, it tracks everything that flies in space and everything that flys near the western hemisphere and europe. It could give complete coverage of air units so you could see incoming nukes tradjectories(if we can't manuver(sp) nukes in civ3) and evac that city if it doesn't have SDI or move a mobile SDI in. You could see 1 turn in advance just for gameplays sake. It could also give 1/2 price for satelites and space stuff and maybe a radar station in each city.

Evacing cities for nuke alert. All citizens move into the suburb cities or neighboring cities for the time before the nuke hits then return with the nuke having not destroyed the pop just the infastructure.

Mobile SDI big planes with lasers can intercept ICBM coming within there flight range.

Radar station upgrades air units range while in that city and AAA capabilities of that city.

Don't keep the same number of wonders, I want more just make em a little easier to get or put a limit on the amount per turn you can build. Maybe 5 but you could always buy a wonder then replace it next turn. But I have no problem always building wonders in a few of my cities.

How about for NORAD, make it for the first person to develop radar. This enabling tech idea can really go places and reduce micromanagement a LOT.

I thought of another idea today about the list I made. Someone talked about how Leo's workshop is to powerful in the game. I see it more as a science booster in real life than a unit upgrade wonder. So how about givnig you a boost in science? Thoughts on this?

I am male, thank you.

Anyway...back on topic. I like the idea of NORAD.

BTW: I don't see the difference between this thread and mine.

quote: Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM Constantine - Cons + Christopher-topher = Christantine I am male, thank you.

quote: Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM Anyway...back on topic. I like the idea of NORAD.

quote: Originally posted by Christantine on 05-21-2000 03:40 PM BTW: I don't see the difference between this thread and mine.

Difference: Your thread focuses on the Pax wonder, mine was not started to discuss that wonder. Plus, my starting post on this thread is about what changes I see in WoWs and states my feeling on the number of them. Where in your thread is this discusses in detail?

BTW: Still looking for more comments on that

Any thoughts on other "future wonders"? I have one (and yes I know it has been discussed)...also possible as a 'prize' for the first to discover a certain tech (can you tell I'm really pushing this enabling tech idea?)

World Wide Web

Puts an "internet" improvement in every city. (Internet improvement, in conjunction with library/university/research lab, multiplies science output by 200%)

Or

Triple science output of city

Thoughts on this?

Should the Cure for Cancer be a future wonder or a modern epoch wonder? I know at least a few people didn't like it as a wonder in the game b/c it hasn't been discovered yet.

Also, isn't "first man on the moon" the same as Apollo Program?

quote: how about modifying the statue of liberty's ability so that it draws people from all over the world to settle in your nation?

What do you think?
It makes sense for the Wonder and also deals with the migration issue.

BTW: I found an interesting fact about the Colossus...

"Let us first clear a misconception about the appearance of the Colossus. It has long been believed that the Colossus stood in front of the Mandraki harbor, one of many in the city of Rhodes, straddling its entrance. Given the height of the statue and the width of the harbor mouth, this picture is rather impossible than improbable. Moreover, the fallen Colossus would have blocked the harbor entrance. Recent studies suggest that it was erected either on the eastern promontory of the Mandraki harbor, or even further inland. Anyway, it did never straddle the harbor entrance."

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-28-2000 10:38 AM Vanishpoint came up with what I think is a great idea for the Statue of Liberty in another thread. I brought it here to be commented on. What do you think? It makes sense for the Wonder and also deals with the migration issue.

hmmp I don't think that the statue was the thing that made all those ppl come to the US ..... I wonder what made a bigger influence , freedom of religion or some big piece of Bronze ( ohh did I say that ?!! ) . a very nice piece of bronze . a sculpture . but , making ppl migrate ? nop I don't think so . maybe it should boost tourism , or something ...

WoW's That Should Be Changed or Gotten Rid Of
According to Christantine

1) King Richard's Crusade (Because it is like an expensive factory.)

2) Marco Polo's Embassy (Explained in the post United Nations)

3) Newton's College (There are enough one-city science wonders)

4) Women's Suffrage (Because when the women got there votes the cities of their countries were not suddenly crime-proof)

5) United Nations (See post, United Nations)

6) Cure for Cancer (Has not been created yet)

7) Bach's Cathedral or Mike's (There only needs to be one)

I just thought that someday that would have to have been said.

Lunar Colony-Advanced high orbit spaceflight or sustained life support systems. Gives bonus for industries that benefit from 0g like computers(in corporations) and medicines.

Man on Mars-Get a flag picture, not sure what else! A flag, your flag on the red planet!!
Tech preq, Long Range Space Communication

Mars colonies- Long range space comm, sustained life support, advanced propulsion. Gives bonus in research and space stuff.

space stuff-reseach orbiters, mining stations. Give bonuses, reseach, production,