Missiles should not be controlled by moving them across the map tile by tile...
They must have pre-set targets..

For tile-by-tile movement, bombs loaded onto planes should be used.. Perhaps someone could dig out my post on loading things (nukes, bombs - bio, chem etc., paratroopers etc.) onto planes...

The range of the missile should depend on the missile tech. Missiles and warheads should be built separately.. For example, you could have 13 Trident (?) missiles, and load Class 3 nuclear warheads on 5 of them, 2 for biological warheads, 2 for conventional warheads, 3 for chemical warheads and one for a thermo-nuclear warhead...

Perhaps it should cost a serious amount of money in order to change the target, and last at least one turn until ready again.

Also, I think building nukes as units under this circumstances should not happen. You would allocate a budget (gold and production) to be put into expanding your nuclear arsenal. The UN would make sure that figure is known approximately.
Then, to add a twist, you may be able to attempt faking this figure via the Espionage Screen ???

A lovely concept, if you're not on the receiving end

In the Nuclear screen, you would not just decide on the budget, you would also decide in which cities your nukes are and how big they are (firepower vs. numbers). Small nukes would be able to penetrate small cities with few units present, while bigger ones would, obviously, kill more people, units and destroy more improvements. There would be no guarantee that all military units will be killed.

Changing the targets would not cost money, but take a few turns (like military readyness in CTP).

There might also be an option to build small (tactical) nukes as units (delivered by bombers?) for use agains armies. Something like rapid response...

My Nuclear Model Version 2.0

Types:

there are five classes of nuclear weapons.

1. Atomic bombs: these are the first type of nuclear weapons you can build. They are single use bombs that must be loaded into a bomber.
2. Thermonuclear missles: The second type of nuclear weapons you can build. These are single use missles that can hit anywhere on the map.
3. MIRV thermonuclear missles: They become available after thermonuclear missles. These are single use missles with multiple warheads. What this means is that they can have more than one target. These missles can strike anywhere on the map.
4. Neutron bombs: They become available with the same technology as MIRV weapons. These single use nuclear weapons have the same range as a cruise missle and are more of a tactical weapon than a strategic weapon.
5. Tactical nuclear weapons: This is a unit special ability. It becomes available with the the same technology as thermonuclear weapons. This option can be added to any ground, air, missle, or naval unit.

Diplomatic Repercussions:

The use of nuclear weapons is considered an atrocity and it carries harsh diplomatic penalties. Any use of strategic nuclear weapons is considered a major atrocity and will cause all but your staunchest allies to declare war on you. Your allies (the Pact Brother Concept from SMAC) will downgrade their relations with you and all civs will impose economic sanctions against your civ. The use of nuclear weapons is very likely to trigger a full scale nuclear war which could potentially wipe out human life on Earth, and all sides would seek to avoid it.

Using tactical nuclear weapons, while not as taboo as strategic nuclear weapons would still cause adverse diplomatic actions to be taken against your civ. The use of tactical nuclear weapons would downgrade relations with all civs by one diplomatic level and would cause civs to impose economic sanctions on your civ. The use of tactical nuclear weapons could trigger a nuclear war, and would be frowned upon by the international community.

Treaties:

There would be a number of diplomatic inititives that would seek to contain nuclear weapons.

1.The Non-Proliferation Treaty: Once multiple civs gained nuclear weapons the Non-Proliferation treaty could be ratified. This would cause that civ's reputation to go down and would impose economic sanctions on a civ if it didn't have nuclear weapons and started to build them. Economic sanctions would remain until that civ changed production, or if disbanded the weapon after it was completed. If a civ with nuclear weapons gave nuclear weapons to another civ, it would cause that civ's reputation to go down, and economic sanctions would be imposed against it.
The Salt II Treaty: This treaty would prevent civs from building additional nuclear weapons. If a civ did start building nuclear weapons, that civ's reputation would go down and economic sanctions would be imposed against that civ until it stopped production of it nuclear weapons or if it did not stop production, until the treaty was revoked.
The Start Treaty: This treaty once passed would automatically disband half of every civs nuclear arsenal. All civs with nuclear weapons would have to agree to this before it would go into effect. If this treaty passed, all civs that voted for it would gain a level of reputation.
The ABM Treaty: This treaty would prevent civs from building SDI units. This treaty would cause a civ's reputation to go down if it violated the treaty and would impose economic sanctions on a civ if it started building SDI units. Economic sanctions would remain until that civ changed production, or if disbanded the weapon after it was completed.

targeting:

when a strategic nuclear weapon is built it must be set up to fire...this means putting the weapon into an active mode (compared to a transport mode)...i would recommend hitting the T key (T as in Target)

atomic bombs: are loaded onto a bomber, the bomber's icon would then change and it might get a slight increase in range. after the bomber drops the atomic bomb it reverts to a normal bomber.

both types of thermonuclear weapons can be loaded into the following structures

A. a city with a missle silo facility
B. a ballistic missle submarine
C. a mobile launch vehicle
D. a missle silo tile improvement

when a unit is loaded it must be given a target within it's range, since both types of thermonuclear missles can strike anywhere they can be given a target anywhere on the map.

MIRV thermonuclear missles cost more than a normal thermonuclear missle but they can strike two targets. with a later tech one MIRV thermonuclear missle could strike up to three targets

before a strategic nuclear weapon is targeted it is considered in transport mode, and has the same movement as a freight truck from civ2

Blast:

nuclear weapons do the following damage

atomic bombs: kills 10 population in a direct hit to a city square, and automatically destroys two facilities. it then has a 50% chance of destroying each of the remaining facilities (40% to destroy a wonder) in that city. all units in the square it hits are automatically destroyed. an atomic bomb destroys all tile improvements in the square it hits.

If an atomic bomb hits in a square adjacent to a city it kills 6 population. it automatically destroys one facility in that city and has a 40% chance of destroying the remaining facilities (30% chance to destroy a wonder). the atomic bomb destroys all Tile improvements in adjacent squares. All units in adjacent squares that are not in bunkers(forts) are automatically destroyed, and all units in bunkers take 90% damage.

thermonuclear missles: kills 25 population in a direct hit to a city square, and automatically destroys 5 facilities. it then has a 75% chance of destroying each of the remaining facilities (65% to destroy a wonder) in that city. all units in the square it hits are automatically destroyed. an atomic bomb destroys all tile improvements in the square it hits.

If a thermonuclear missle hits in a square adjacent to a city it kills 15 population. it automatically destroys 3 facilities in that city and has a 65% chance of destroying the remaining facilities (55% chance to destroy a wonder). the theremonuclear missle destroys all Tile improvements in adjacent squares. All units in adjacent squares that are automatically destroyed.

If a thermonuclear missle hits in two squares away from a city it kills 10 population. it automatically destroys 2 facilities in that city and has a 50% chance of destroying the remaining facilities (40% chance to destroy a wonder). it destroys all Tile improvements in adjacent squares. All units in adjacent squares that are not in bunkers(forts) are automatically destroyed, and all units in bunkers take 90% damage.

MIRV thermonuclear missles:have the exact same effect as a normal theremonuclear missle. the only difference is they can strike at multiple targets.

neutron bombs: have a very low blast effect but a very high radiation effect. nuetron bombs would automatically destroy all units in the square they hit. they would automatically destroy all infantry units in the squares adjacent to the blast and would inflict 50% damage on all mechanized units in the square adjacent to it. If a neutron bomb hit a city it would kill 10 population, but would not destroy any facilities. If a neutron bom hit adjacent to the city it would kill 5 population. Neutron bombs would not destroy tile improvements.

tactical nuclear weapons: doubles a units attack strength. it also cause the collateral damage to be twice it's normal value. if used against a city, tactical nuclear weapons kill 5 population and destroy one facility. tactical nuclear weapons also destroy 1 tile improvement per attack.

radiation:

nuclear weapons create radiation when used this is why they are so vile.

atomic bombs when used will always create a radioactive square in the square they hit. there is a 75% per square chance that an adjacent square will become radioactive. there is also a 75% chance that up to three other random squares outside of its blast radius could become radioactive from fallout. if an atomic bomb hits a city then for the next five turns there is a 75% chance per turn that the city will lose 1 population per turn to radiation.
thermonuclear missles: when used will always create a radioactive square in the square they hit. there is a 50% chance per square that a square within a two square radius will become radioactive. there is also a 50% chance that up to 5 squares outside of a thermonuclear weapons blast radius will become radioactive from fallout. if a thermonuclear missle hits a city then for the next five turns there is a 50% chance per turn that the city will lose 1 population per turn to radiation.
MIRV thermonuclear missles: have the same effect as thermonuclear missles except they have multiple targets they strike.
Neutron bombs: cause temporary radiation in the square they hit and every adjacent square this radiation will dissappear in 8 turns. it can be cleaned in 3 turns. hits a city then for the next five turns there is a 50% chance per turn that the city will lose 1 population per turn to radiation.
Tactical nuclear weapons: have a 50% chance of turning the square they were used on into a radioactive square.

radioactive squares cannot be used. radioactive squares remain radioactive for 100 turns. it takes 12 turns for an engineer to clean up a radioactive square. units moving through a radioactive square will take 10% damage per radioactive square they move through. units ending their turn in a radioactive square will take 20% damage. a unit can never heal in a radioactive square.

Mutual Assured Destruction: when a strategic nuclear weapon is given a target it can be put on one of two modes, either on Alert mode or on Counterstrike mode.

when on Alert mode, if a nuclear weapon is launched then ALL nukes on alert launch and all of them hit simultaneously. when a neutron bomb or tactical nuclear weapon is against a civ with strategic nuclear weapons on Alert mode there will be a box that ask if that civ want to launch its nuclear weapons. this ensures Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) and makes one think twice before using nuclear weapons.

when on Counterstrike mode, the nuclear weapon doesn't lauch when the first launch is detected. instead it doesn't fire until ordered to do so.

SDI:

SDI units could be built to intercept nuclear weapons. these units would have a 25% chance of intercepting a strategic nuclear weapon and would have a two square radius in which they provided cover against strategic nuclear weapons. an SDI unit could only attempt an intercept once per turn. SDI units would come after thermonuclear missles and would cost 1/3 the cost of a thermonuclear missle.

nuclear winter: if during any period 15% of the total squares on the map become radioactive then a nuclear winter will occur. it will last for ten turns. when a nuclear winter first occurs, every city on the map loses two population. also for all ten turns every single square on the map produces one less of everything. additionally during this time radioactive squares will randomly appear anywhere on the map. radioactive squares by themselves do not destroy tile improvements but they make them unuseable. after the 10 turn nuclear winter is over, then it would take a new 15% of the map turning radioactive before another nuclear winter would occur.

i think those changes add in a new element to civ. it would definantly increase late game tensions and would make a relatively boring late game into an exciting and dangerous phase if someone built the manhattan project.

please feel free to point out all of it's major flaws, but please tell me why it wouldn't work like that

i don't think that you could ever simulate a cold war without nuclear weapons (or some other form of weapons of mass destruction) without the threat of massive nuclear retailiation then any cold war will quickly turn into a hot war when you have two sides as ideologically opposed as what the USA and the USSR were...

my general idea is too have very powerful, very destructive nuclear weapons which would have severe ramifications if used (the earth is utterly destroyed, the world unites against you, the earth becomes a radioactive wasteland) i would like if in most games that nuclear weapons were a threat, but they were hardly ever used, and when used it would have massive effects that is what i would like to see

also i didn't mention any other weapon system or diplomatic interaction...i think they should also be much improved on, i think that nuclear weapons should always be in the background as a terrible threat but i do agree that other weapons and diplomatic interactions shouldn't be ignored, and should be much improved on

Overall I like it a lot. It describes the massive destructive capability of nukes. There is, however, some things about it I do not like:

I don't think that using a nuke should be such a major atrocity as you described. After all, the US used them against the defenceless Japanese with very few or no diplomatic effects. Maybe it could work so that the more nukes that are in the world, the more diplomatic effects come from using them.

I really like the treaties, although I agree with Orange that they should be nameable by you.

On targeting I still think that every time a nuke was used anywhere in the world, even if it wasn't on you, you would get the option of using one, some or all of your nukes, and decide what to hit. This way you wouldn't necessarily risk total destruction just because an enemy uses a nuke on one of your smaller, peripherial cities, and at the same time you could choose to throw nukes at a civ if it had attacked one of your allies or protectorates.

The blast effects are great. They are realistic and useable at the same time.

The radiation model is not very good, however. The amount of radiation is fine, but as ratiation takes like 100,000 years or more to stop, I think that radiation should excist untill removed by enginners (this would be a very slow procedure). The radiation should therefor stay in a square forever, untill removed. I also think that in stead of a nuke giving 50/75% chance to kill a pop unit each turn for 5 turns, that these percentages should be lowered to something like 15/25%, but then excist for the rest of the game, untill the radiation in the city has been removed. This should be done with a settler like when it removes radiation from a normal square, but would propably take longer, as it is more dificult to remove radiation in a city with people in it than on some field.

I think that the Manhattan project should be a national project, so that each civ would have to build one to make nukes (there could be more of these national projects). I also think that nukes should be far cheaper than in Civ2/SMAC. Both the US and Russia has 1000s of nukes. They have enough to litterally bomb every inch of land in both countries! I don't think we need 1000s of nukes in Civ3, but it should be possible to build lots of them. I think that a medium size city with a factory should be able to build a nuke every other turn.

about the thing WarVoid said above :

about the thing WarVoid said above :

My suggestion is giving nukes a strategic and tactical role. You can use a nuke in the normal 'tactical' mode, in which case it would work the same way as in Civ2. Or you could choose 'strategic' mode in which case you can use nukes and target cities with a far more dramatic effect: city improvements destroyed, large population drop etc..

lets that player one launches a nuclear attack...

player two is player one's ally and his nukes are on counterstrike when player one launches...however they are on alert mode when player three launches

player three nuke's on all on alert mode

so player one launches on his turn...

player two is on counterstrike in relation to player one and doesn't launch...

player three has his nukes on alert and his nukes automatically retaliate...

player two's nukes are on alert in relation to player three and so then player two's nukes automatically launch

so in a matter of seconds ON PLAYER ONE'S TURN a nuclear war occured, 90% of the population was lost and the game continues with radiation covering the land

some nukes have to be on automatic in a TBS game unless it has simultaneous turns, (which have asynchronous play problems that a normal TBS game doesn't have) but if it doesn't have simultaneous turns, then there are only three options you have in reacting to a nuclear attack

option 1: player one gets to nuke player three and there is nothing player three can do about it...so this isn't an option

option 2: player one's turn isn't over but the game pauses after he launches the nukes...he has to save and send it to player two, who doesn't join in...player two sends it to player three, who attacks...then it goes back to player one and the turn unpauses and executes...this could get to be very very very time consuming...if you had six players and as each new player decided to launch people before them would then have to be asked if they wanted to launch now...this could take like maybe as many as five or six turns of deciding to launch

option 3: alert and counterstrike modes...with the modification that you can put your nukes on alert and counter strike mode towards each civ...so you could have you nukes on counterstrike with your allies, and you could have it on alert mode with your enemies

the joker

i love your proposal about national projects...you know what would be really awsome? if you took the idea of a national project and the alien victory condition in SMACX and then get a national projects that has prerequisits

for those of you who don't know in SMACX the alien victory is where you build you have to build 6 resonance generators in fairly large cities (size 10 if i remember correctly)

now this idea just came to me so its not perfect...but as for the national manhatten project...lets say that for each university you have the MP would be 25 mineral (shields) cheaper...so if you had lots of scientist you could build the MP project far cheaper than if you didn't, requirements effecting either the cost in minerals or the completion conditions for a national prject would be infinately more interesting than just building a national project in one city...these national projects should take a national effort to build...this could help take away the super city strategy for in civ3 and if the power of ICS was curbed too then you could have a perfect game

also i can agree on you that radiation should be long lasting...if the game is 500 turns long and radiation lasts 100 turns it would be rare for the radiation to go away by itself most of the time...but 100 turns may not be long enough so how does 150 turns sound? and for nuclear winter it last a random amount of turns but it always last 10 turns, then after 10 turns depending on the number of radioactive squares you would have a certain precentage of the nuclear winter ending...the more radiation the long it would last...so it could last between 10 and 150 turns...maybe after 100 turns then the radiation would have a chance of going away which would increase each turn...so at turn 101 it has a 1% chance of going away and at turn 150 it had a 50% chance of going away and at turn 199 it had a 99% chance of going away...how does that sound?

and i also agree that that civs should be able to lose technology

base time (doesn't matter too much but somewhere between 25-150 years) and then after the base time there is a percentage so after the base time is over then it goes like this, for each turn there is one percentage point greater that the radiation will go away

so for the first year we only have a 1% chance that the radiation will disappear...then after 25 years we have a 25% chance...then after 50 years we have a 50% chance...however the chance cannot go above 99% (but how many turns would it really not go away if the percentage was 99%)

this would have the positive game play effect of radiation disappearing at different time

almost the same thing for a nuclear winter...base time, then after the base time it would be +1% chance each year that the radiation would go away minus the percent of the squares covered in radiation so the more radioactive the planet is the longer a nuclear year would last

They are on the same line of Fighter on alert (scramble) in Civ II / Alpha Centauri and I like game design coherence

To tell all the truth, instead I disagree about your quick dismiss of Simultaneous Turns solution.

In fact I'm convinced that all the "trigger" presetted order you must add to a TBS game to add realism are only patches that can only last for a few game.

I think (you already know my crusade on CIV Essential List ) that the only way to counterattack against the incoming wave of RTS games is to "dig and improve" the concept of Simultaneous turns and to graft it into old TBS one-time-our-hero genre.

BTW if any new Apolytoner want a deeper look on this "Simultaneous" concept can jump to the original suggestion for EC3: ../../Forum28/HTML/000301.html?date=09:02

And no, I'm almost sure Civ III will not be "simultaneous", but Sid "magic" can't be right every time

When you choose the target option, a list of all the cities for each civ pops up and you choose a preset target. Depending on the range, you may not be able to target all cities of each civ.

The status option must be set for each missile. The options would be Alert, Ready, and Standby.

A missile set on Alert will automatically fire at the specified target *if* the target belongs to the civ who launched an attack, whether it be against you or any other civ. This is intended to be a deterent from an attack on any civ. If the Russians launch a missile attack on the Zulus, your Alert missiles fire at the Russians, the Germans, who may have Alert missiles aimed at you then have theirs fire off at your targets. It becomes a vicious circle that results in AAD, absolute assured destruction. Thus putting missiles on Alert is meant as a tool to deter foreign powers from waging a missile attack for the sake of mankind.

A missile on Ready will be armed and ready to fire. If a missile attack is launched against any civ, a dialogue box pops up and you are asked if you would like to launch your missile at its target.

For a missile on Standby, it has a target, but you must open the nuke control panel and choose to fire it yourself.

These are all predicated on the fact that *if* an attack is made on you by a foreign civ, your Alert missiles will fire and you will get a dialogue box asking if you would like to fire your Ready missiles, even if it's not the end of your opponent's turn. You will not be allowed to fire Standby missiles until your own turn. Missile attacks by each civ would be resolved after each civ has taken its turn.

The Warhead Type will give options of Nuclear, Biological, or Conventional, each with their own special effects.

Diplomatic Options would include agreeing to take all missiles off of Alert and Ready modes. When you agree, all of your missiles become Standby. If you change one of these and break the treaty, you suffer severe reputation damage. You may also agree to A 50% Reduction of Missile Arsenals. Agreeing carries along with it the stipulation that you will not produce any more missiles.

*************

I'd also like to see two types of missiles during the game. The earlier version would be the V2, a conventional rocket which you would attack a city with, doing X amount of damage. The second version, the cruise missile, would come along with the advent of computers. With a cruise missile, you can choose the target within the city you are attacking: two military targets, civilians (reduces population), or any city improvement of your choice. Choosing to attack civilians does reputation damage to the attacker.

************

quote: Originally posted by korn469 on 05-01-2000 02:36 PM ok if civ3 is a turned based game you cannot have full control over your nukes during the other players turn...if there are three players in a game and player one has many nukes, player two has a few nukes and player three has the most nukes and these weapons have unlimited range then without an alert mode it is impossible to prevent a first strike scenario. for game play you need to have some of your nukes ready to go...maybe with improved technology you could gain improved detection so you could know exactly who launched a nuke, with this technology you could specify an alert mode and a counterstrike mode for each civ or something to that effect

It might be easier if you seperate the launch of nukes from a player's turn itself with the help of a timer that all players are aware of. For example, I have quite an arsenal, let's say 9 nukes. I intend to use them in my turn but before this can happen I have to arm them from the launch screen. There are two problems when arming your warheads: one, all players are informed that your arming your nukes, but they don't know who you're aiming for. The other players are only warned that you've started to arm and when you've armed your warheads and two, it takes 70 seconds to arm the warheads and it takes another 60 seconds for the nukes to reach their targets, should you decide to launch. So there is a window of opportunity for a preemptive strike!

So in doing this I must be pretty sure that the other players don't have their warheads already armed and not launch a counterstrike against me, tough call...

By putting in a timer you create an interesting dilemma, do you permanently arm your warheads for a firststrike or in fear of a counterstrike? And in doing so, are you thereby showing that you have hostile intentions to use them if need be? (otherwise you wouldn't have your warheads permanently armed, of course!
Or do you take a more peaceful approach by disarming your nukes as a sign of good faith?

I'll demonstrate using korn's method.

It's player 1's turn. He decides player 3 no longer deserves to live, so he commands his pre-aimed nuke forces to blast him of the planet.

However, these nukes will not launch from their silos untill player 1 is done with his moves and ends his turn. After the missiles are launched, player 1 can't effect their set targets.

At this point, before the actual turn of the next player, all players that posess an active nuclear arsenal will be alerted simultaneously with a popup. They are asked if they want to launch their nukes to their preset targets or hold back. If any of these players select to launch, everybody will again receave a notification and the same questions. This will be repeated untill everyone who might want to fire has fired, or ran out of nukes or held back. Thus, we can have a situation where you can wait to see if somebody launches at you or your allies before firing your own nukes, and if someone does you still have a chance to fire back in the same turn, even if he's turn comes after you.

So something like this would be a log of events displayed to all players:

- Player 1 uses nuclear weapons on Player 3's cities A,B,C,D.
- Player 3 uses nuclear weapons on Player 1's cities I,K,L,M.
- Player 4 (allied with 3) uses nuclear weapons on Player 1's cities E,F,G,H
- Player 2 (allied with 1) uses nuclear weapons on Player 3's cities N,O, and Player 4's cities P,Q.
- Player 3 uses nuclear weapons on Player 2's cities R,S.
- Player 4 uses nuclear weapons on Player 2's cities T,U.

Outside all this, we have Player 5, who has nukes but isn't allied with anybody, so he stays out of it. We also have Player 6, who doesn't have the tech to make nukes, so all he can do is to whatch in horror as 1, 2, 3, and 4 blow the planet up around him.

This seem's rather realistic to me. And since you know that if you fire, the enemy will fire back and you'll also die, and thus we have a balance of terror as long as people remain sane. All this results in a cold war.

Of course this special launching period should have a time limit, to keep down overly long gameplay delays. Make it 30 seconds after each notification or whatever. When in multiplayer, the chat line should also remain open to let players smooth out strategy in middle of the action, although they must make it quick.

After all launch orders are set, the nukes of every player that fired will hit their targets, get countered by SDI or whatever. Once the nukes are on their way, the players can't effect their course, and they can't be canceled. After all the missiles have either either hit or been destroyed, the next player on the list after player 1 gets his normal turn. That is, if there is anything left of his civ.

As for the nuke units, I think the ideas about several types with different uses is good. The type that I used in this model should be a long range missile with a large payload. It should be a unit you can't just move around the map, hopping from city to city. The only way to move them around should be via land carriers. They should be located in silos, that could be airbase-type tile improvements. Each missile would have a preset, changable target. Changing the target should take at least a turn. At launchtime you would select the set targets from a list (like when airlifting in Civ2), and the correct missiles would fire away. Each silo could only hold one missile. All silos would need to be within a city's radius. That city would get massive unhappiness, even more if the silo is loaded. Each silo tile improvement would suck production out of the tile for "upkeep", say one or two shields. If the tile produces zero shield, the number would turn negative, and the cost would needed to be taken from the city shield pool. A nuke unit would still require the support dictated by youur form of govt. All this would resrict how big of an nuke arsenal you can maintain. And as silos could be destroyed by plain old pillaging, it would also create new strategies concerning their placement.

Other, smalleer and more conventional nukes should also be available. They should function much like the ones we know and love, or maby some other way.