Ships shouldn't require MapMaking, there should be a separate advance as ShipMaking for that. MapMaking on the other hand should be what is says. The map shouldn't be visible before MapMaking is discovered, you should only see the unit you're moving at the moment. When MapMaking is discovered the terrain should be 'mapped'. The distance to the capital, any other city or units shouldn't be correct, meaning the world map would consist of puzzle parts, then if a unit (with it's map part) reaches another map part they are fitted together. If all units on a map part are lost the map information is lost. This would infect both ground and naval units, air units probably won't be an issue, well of course you could leave MapMaking form you discovery plans but that would be some sort of strategic suicide.
Maybe also if a ship goes around the world -> finding out that it came back to the same places -> realizing the world is round -> give an extra boost in science.

quote: Originally posted by mwaf on 05-01-2000 11:18 AM MapMaking on the other hand should be what is says. The map shouldn't be visible before MapMaking is discovered, you should only see the unit you're moving at the moment. When MapMaking is discovered the terrain should be 'mapped'.

Ooooh I have often wondered this myself and spoke of it in another thread. I had an idea similar to yours. I don't see why map making leads to trieme, and I don't see why you can have a map without mapmaking as a science.

A few things...
Alphabet should not be a prereq. for Mapmaking. You don't need letters to draw a map...

Mapmaking + Mathematics = Seafaring (trieme)
Seafaring + Astronomy = Navigation (caravel)
Physics + Iron Working = Magnetism (Frigate)
Magnetism + Navigation = Advanced Navigation (Galleon)

Also, your units should get increased range with map making...Going by the current Civ 2 system it would only see the square it's on without map making. With, it has increased range. Once a unit moves out of a square it should be black again. That's the way I see it anyway..comments?

Polytheism:
'In the early period of agriculture, before the full development of the Neolithic Period, deposits of human skulls appear that suggest the presence of ancestor cults. A spiritual identification between humans and plants apparently played a predominant part in conceptions connected with headhunting and cannibalism. The death of a god was often considered a prerequisite to the appearance and prospering of the plants, and this mythical event was repeated through human sacrifice that was either accompanied by or replaced by animal sacrifice.

At an early stage, in addition to an agricultural connection with the earlier feminine aspects, the masculine aspect appears in the form of portrayals of sexual union and, perhaps, of the "holy wedding," or sacred coupling, as well as in portrayals of couples and families. Among the material remains, however, the direct representation of the male element recedes sharply, yet perhaps the symbol of the axe and probably also that of the bull may indicate the male element. This dualism of the masculine and feminine aspects can possibly be interpreted in terms of father sky and mother earth, and in their union as a couple by which they become parents of the world. In the early civilizations, the conception of a supreme being or a heavenly god (which cannot clearly be recognized either in pictures or in other material objects) plays a minor role. That does not mean, however, that such a conception is necessarily of recent origin but rather that it probably existed at an early period in places where there was no literate tradition (predominantly among pastoral cultures).

Civilizations

The decisive factors that brought about the early civilizations were the new kinds of economic and social organization, the large-scale exploitation of human energy, the formation of ruling classes, hierarchical organization, and the administrative division of labour. Under such conditions polytheism, which had undoubtedly been nascent before, could develop fully. The social order is mirrored in the conception of city and state gods and of a hierarchically organized "state of gods" with a division of labour. The concentration of power and people in one place, in contrast with the wandering of earlier nomadic cultures, enabled fixed central shrines to become influential. Yet the old traditions continued, and not least among them, that of animalism, in the form of conceptions about a ruler of the animals, animal cults, and similar phenomena. Female fertility figures remain generally prominent, such as the Great Mother and the Earth Mother.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'prehistoric religion')

'Our knowledge of Mesopotamian religious and moral ideas derives from a variety of texts -epic tales and myths, rituals, hymns, prayers, incantations, lists of gods collections of precepts, proverbs, etc.- which come, in the main, from three great sources: the sacerdotal library of Nippur (the religious centre of Sumer), and the palace and temple libraries of Assur and Ninive. Some of these texts are written in Sumerian, others are usually Assyrian or Babylonian copies or adaptations of Sumerian originals, even though, in a few cases, they have no counterpart in the Sumerian religious literature discovered so far. The dates when they were actually composed vary from about 1900BC to the last centuries before Christ, but we may reasonably assume that they embody verbal traditions going back to the Early Dynastic period and possibly even earlier, since a number of Sumerian deities and mythological scenes can be recognized on the cylinder-seals and sculptured objects from the Uruk and Jemdat Nasr periods. Before these, positive evidence is lacking, but the unbroken continuity of architectural traditions, the rebuilding of temple upon temple in the same sacred area suggest that some at least of the Sumerian gods were already worshipped in southern Iraq during the Ubaid period.

Uruk (biblical Erech, modern Warka) is one of the most important sites of the Near East, not only by its huge size (four hundred hectares), but also by its virtually uninterrupted occupation from Ubaidian to Parthian times and by the rich archaeological and epigraphic material it has yielded.

The city of Uruk was born of the coalescence of two towns half a mile apart: Kullaba, devoted to the sky-god An (or Anu), the supreme god of the Mesopotamians, and E-Anna ('House of Heaven'), the main abode of the love goddess Inanna (called Ishtar by the Semites). In the centre of E-Anna can still be seen the remains of a mud-brick stage tower (ziqqurat) built by the Sumerian king Ur-Nammu(~2112-2095BC) over a large temple raised on a platform and dating to the Jemdat Nasr period. It is in this area that the German archaeologists, who since 1912 have been digging on and off at Warka for about fifty years, have unearthed at least seven adjacent or superimposed temples and various other cultic installations dating to the second half of the Uruk period. It is also there that they sunk a twenty metre deep well reaching the virgin soil and obtained a stratigraphic section of the site, apparently founded during the Ubaid period.

The archaic temples of Uruk were very similar in plan to those of the Ubaid period at Eridu already described: the buttressed façade, the long cella surrounded by small rooms, the doors on the long side testify to the persistence of architectural traditions as well, probably, as of belief and cult. In E-Anna, they were arranged in pairs, a fact that led Professor H. Lenzen to suggest that they were dedicated not only to Inanna but also to her lover the fertility-god Dumuzi. Particularly remarkable were the lowermost levels with their enormous temples -one of them built on limestone foundations, measured 87 by 33 metres- and their extraordinary 'mosaic building'. One of the archaic temples of E-Anna, the so-called 'Red Temple', owes its name to the pink wash which covered its walls, and at Tell ‘Uquair, fifty miles south of Baghdad, the Iraqis excavated in 1940-41 a temple of the Uruk period decorated with frescoes which, when discovered, were 'as bright as the day they were applied': human figures, unfortunately damaged, formed a procession, and two crouching leopards guarded the throne of an unknown god.'
(source: G.Roux:'Ancient Iraq',1992)

Though the pantheon of the gods perhaps wasn't complete yet the conclusion can be drawn that several gods were worshipped in considerable temples in Uruk and other Sumerian cities from the day they were established. The question how far this tradition reaches back in time cannot be properly answered because we don't have written sources. Considering the conservative charcter of the Sumerians a rather long polytheistic tradition is at least a possibility.

Elephant:
According to the 'Times Atlas of Archaeology' in about 600BC the first war elephants were used in India.

Metal has always achieved wide popularity as an exchange medium, being durable, divisible, and portable; and the origins of true coinage lie there. Ancient Egypt, which never developed a true coinage, was using gold bars of set weight from the 4th millennium BC; and a currency of gold rings was thereafter common. In the Middle East, also, gold rings long served the dual purposes of adornment and currency, supplemented by gold and silver bars from which segments could be cut. The choice of metal was, as usual, determined by availability. Around the Aegean Sea heavy talents (ancient units of weight and, later, of monetary value) of copper, ingots of 55 pounds (25 kilograms) or more, were in currency several centuries before true coinage, and the discovery of an iron bar with a handful (drachma) of fractional iron spits (obeloi) dedicated in the Heraeum (a temple of the goddess Hera) at Argos, perhaps as part of King Pheidon of Argos' reforms of weights and measures in the 7th century BC, shows such currency continuing until historical times. Similar bundles of spits have been found elsewhere and are evidence of the desire to subdivide a cumbersome unit into smaller fractions for normal use. At the other end of the scale, there was, ultimately, the desire to express the value of a talent of copper or iron in terms of gold or silver; and Homer, who speaks of metal basins, tripods, and axes as gifts and prizes in a way that shows them as a recognized standard of wealth, also speaks of the talent of gold (i.e., the value of a heavy base-metal talent expressed in a little pellet of gold). In Italy rough lumps of bronze (aes rude) formed a currency from early times, being succeeded by bars of regular weight; and Julius Caesar's record of the ancient British use of iron bars as currency (following his raids on Britain in 55 and 54 BC) is still borne out by not infrequent finds.

Such "heavy" currencies, mainly characteristic of European lands, show the employment of metals from which implements would normally be made. The impact upon this system of the gold of the East, and later of the silver of Greece, produced the need to value such metals in gold and silver, and this in turn resulted in the need to control and guarantee the quantity of gold and silver so used to avoid constant weighing. Once gold (and then silver) gained acceptance as conveniently small expressions of relatively high value, with a visible mark of guarantee, the stage of true coinage, as it first appeared in Asia Minor and India, had been reached. Not all lands, however, adopted true coinage: the easternmost fringes of the Greek world lacked it, and Carthage and Etruria were without coinage until the 5th century.

True coinage began soon after 650 BC. The 6th-century Greek poet Xenophanes, quoted by the historian Herodotus, ascribed its invention to the Lydians, "the first to strike and use coins of gold and silver." King Croesus of Lydia (reigned c. 560-546 BC) produced a bimetallic system of pure gold and pure silver coins, but the foundation deposit of the Artemisium (temple to Artemis) at Ephesus shows that electrum coins were in production before Croesus, possibly under King Gyges. Croesus' earliest coins were of electrum, which the Greeks called "white gold." They were stamped on one side with the facing heads of a lion and a bull; this type was later transferred to his bimetallic series of pure gold and pure silver. (Some recent scholarship, however, suggests that this latter series was struck, in fact, under Croesus' Persian successors.)

The early electrum coinage consisted of small, thick, bean-shaped pieces, with a device stamped in relief on one side, the other being roughly impressed. Their intrinsic value fluctuated according to their gold and silver content; but the weight of the unit was fairly steady at about seven to eight grams, and the types stamped on them were the guarantee of authority.
(source: Britannica.com, article 'coin')

Gold was one of the first metals utilized, being mined from streambeds of sand and gravel where it occurred as a pure metal because of its chemical stability. Although chemically less stable, copper occurs in native form and was probably the second metal discovered and used. Silver was also found in a pure state and at one time was valued more highly than gold.

According to historians, the Egyptians were mining copper on the Sinai Peninsula as long ago as 3000 BC, although some bronze (copper alloyed with tin) is dated as early as 3700 BC. Iron is dated as early as 2800 BC; Egyptian records of iron ore smelting date from 1300 BC. Found in the ancient ruins of Troy, lead was produced as early as 2500 BC.

One of the earliest evidences of building with quarried stone was the construction (2600 BC) of the great pyramids in Egypt, the largest of which (Khufu) is 236 metres along the base sides and contains approximately 2.3 million blocks of two types of limestone and red granite. The limestone is believed to have been quarried from across the Nile. Blocks weighing as much as 15,000 kilograms (32,000 pounds) were transported long distances and elevated into place, and they show precise cutting that resulted in fine-fitting masonry.
(source: Britannica.com, article 'mining')

quote: Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 05-01-2000 04:06 PM Ooooh I have often wondered this myself and spoke of it in another thread. I had an idea similar to yours. I don't see why map making leads to trieme, and I don't see why you can have a map without mapmaking as a science.

Why don't we introduce a "fog of war" like in SMAC, where the map can be viewed but not the units on it?
This fog of war could be available with MapMaking, and until you research this you only see black spaces unless you place a unit here and there.

What it does, don't know

Maybe a boost in food production(clone dem sheep) a lowering of the happiness level and a boost in science

Whatacha think?

*Population boom (as governments seek to replace everyone with intelligent, useful people)

*And of course, military benefits (ie super soldiers). In fact if cloning was to be implemented, how about genetically modified soldiers who can't feel pain?

having said that, I think the above points would unbalance the game. Even if cloning did lower your happiness, so what? Your unlimited soldiers could still kill every other civ...

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger on 03-27-2000 01:08 AM Many has blamed Confucianism for the stagnation because it totally neglects science and technology.

Just to expand this earlier strand on China. One could think of its tech progression in terms of the current Civ2 model where the spectacular advances in science and technology gave rise to rapid expansion and a population explosion that was possible with Monarchy. As in civ there arose the need to tackle the problems of taxation, corruption and communication in a large empire. The result was the adoption of a nationwide system of bureaucracy based on Confucianism with national examinations based on rote learning of the Confucian literature determining the choice of governors and bureaucrats throughout the land. The uniformity and conformity and respect for authority which were advantageous for administration and control were of course the ingredients for the demise of science which demands intellectual freedom and innovation ie at this stage the TLS ratio was set T high and L high and S virtually zero. One could postulate a dead-end path in this case from the lines Philosophy/Religion to Bureaucracy.

The other interesting point to note is that discovery in itself does not always lead to the realization of potential. I am thinking of the Chinese invention of gunpowder. With their perhaps rather arrogant dismissal of things military (the soldier being low down in the Confucian status scale), gunpowder was celebrated in fire-crackers and fireworks rather than heralded the appearance of musketeers!

Chinese soldiers a few in each archer brigade were equipt for a short time with gunpowder arrow launchers. Effectively it was like a modern bullet, bamboo case filled with gunpowder, fuse stilling out the back the fuse would like the powder powder goes boom, arrows fly out. The arrows and cases were carried in a large square thick wooded box type case that was slung over the shoulder to provide recoil support. The archer could take a torch, lite the fuses sticking out of the box, and then aim them at the enemy. The result was devenstating as the metal arrows flew at an amazing yet unaccuate rate. A line of 10 of these men out stop a cavalry company in its tracks. I do not remember why they stopped using this devestating weapon but gunpowder was utilized, just not for long.

It seems China's military history is full of mysteries. One other unexplained phenomenon that I'm aware of is their abandonment of sea power after its peak in the 16th Century when the large fleet under the eunuch admiral Cheng Ho made its base in Malacca on the Malayan Peninsula well before the Portuguese. How different the political world map would be today if only...

quote: As Markos said in the news item, I think it would be a great idea to get down all the actual/approximate dates of the units, improvements, advances, and wonders from Civ2. Future discoveries could be listed as 2020 AD and nothing should be earlier than 4000 BC, in which case we can just call it 'Pre-historic.' This will be fun for a lot reasons: 1. As Markos mentioned, we can compare Civ and CtP to see which one is "truer" to history. 2. This will serve as a great resource for us as we play the game. 3. And, last but not least, I'm really hoping Firaxis might take these dates and be able to use them to do some cool indexing for the Civilopedia--if they aren't already planning such a thing. Funny, actually, that the dates of these things were never included in the Civ games! Let's fix that. I realize getting dates on some of these things will be impossible, but let's try our best. When possible, please include a link to your source if you found the information on-line, as I certainly will be doing it that way. This will allow us to compare sources if there is a dispute. Thanks guys!

Archers:
~16,000BC stave bow and flint-tipped arrowhead
2500BC composite bow in Mesopotamia
400BC crossbow in China
(source: 'Times Atlas of World Archaeology',1988)

'The men of the Old Stone Age, in any case, had not yet invented the bow. At the beginning of the New Stone Age, however, some 10,000 years ago, there occurred 'a revolution in weapons technology... four staggeringly powerful new weapons made their appearance... the bow, the sling, the dagger... and the mace'. The last three were refinements of weapons already in existence: the mace derived from the club, the dagger from the spear point and the sling from the bolas, the last a pair of stones covered with leather and joined by a thong, thrown to entangle the legs of deer or bison which had been herded into a killing-place. The atlatl, or spear-throwing lever, was probaby also an indirect precursor of the sling, since it worked by the same principle. The bow, however, was a real departure. It may be seen as the first machine, since it employed moving parts and translated muscular into mechanical energy. How the men of the New Stone Age hit upon it we cannot guess, though it spread very rapidly once invented; why they did so has most probably to do with the progressive retreat of the last ice-shields. The warming of the temperate zones completely changed the movement and migration patterns of the hunters' prey, abolishing the old pelagic areas where game was predictably found, and, by liberating animals to roam and feed further and more widely, forced the hunter and the hunting-party to find a means of bringing down a more fleeting target over longer ranges.

The simple bow, as the original is called, is a piece of homogeneous wood, typically a length of sapling, and it lacks the opposed properties of elasticity and compression that gave the later composite and long bows, made of both sapwood and heartwood, their greater carrying and penetrative power. Even in its simple form, however, the bow transformed the relationship of man with the animal world. He no longer had to close to arm's length to dispatch his prey, pitting at the last moment flesh against flesh, life against life. Henceforth he could kill at a distance. Was man the archer also man the first warrior?

Cave art of the New Stone Age undoubtedly shows us scenes of bowmen apparently opposed in conflict. Arthur Ferrill claims to perceive in the painting from caves in the Spanish Levant roots of battlefield tactics, with warriors forming columns behind a chief, shooting arrows in a ranked formation and even practising an outflanking movement in an encounter between what he calls the 'army of four' and the 'army of three'.

Scholars dispute how to date the appearance of the composite bow; it may have been in use as early as the third millenniumBC, if a Sumerian stele has been correctly interpreted; it was certainly in existence by the second, since its distinctive ogival or 'recurved' shape is clearly depicted in a golden bowl of 1400BC, now in the Louvre. It cannot have appeared overnight, for the complexity of its construction, like that of the chariot, speaks of a variety of prototypes, and decades, if not centuries, of experimentation. In its finished form, which did not vary between its perfection in the second millenniumBC and its supersession as a weapon of war in the nineteenth centuryAD (it was last used by Manchu bannermen), it consisted of a slender strip of wood -or a laminate of more than one- to which were glued on the outer side ('back') lenghts of elastic animal tendon and on the inner side ('belly') strips of compressible animal horn, usually that of the bison. The glues, compounded of boiled-down cattle tendons and skin mixed with smaller amounts reduced from the bones and skin of fish, might take 'more than a year to dry and had to be applied under precisely controlled conditions of temperature and humidity... a great deal of art was involved in their preparation and application, much of it characterised by a mystical, semi-religious approach'.

The composite bow began as five pieces of plain or laminated wood- a central grip, two arms and two tips. Once glued together, this timber 'skeleton' was then steamed into a curve, opposite to that it would assume when strung, and steamed strips of horn were glued to the 'belly'. It was then bent into a complete circle, again against its strung shape, and tendons were glued to its 'back'. It was then left to 'cure' and only when all its elements had indissolubly married was it untied and strung for the first time. Stringing a compostie bow, against its natural relaxed shape, required both great strength and dexterity; its 'weight', conventionally measured in 'pounds', might amount to 150, against only a few for a simple or 'self' bow made from a length of sapling.

Similar 'weights' characterised the long bow, when toward the end of the Middle Ages west European bowyers learnt to use a billet containing both heart and sap wood to fashion their weapons; it worked by the same principle of opposing the forces of elasticity and compressibility, stored by the archer's arm when he bent the bow, and released by his fingers, to drive an arrow forward. The disadvantage of the long bow, however, was precisely its length; it could only be used by an archer on foot. The composite bow was short, reaching only from the top of a man's head to his waist when strung, and therefore suiting itself perfectly to use from a chariot or horse. It shot a lighter arrow -the best weight was about an ounce- than the long bow would, but could still carry to 300 yards with great accuracy (far longer ranges in free flight have been recorded) and penetrate armour at a hundred yards. The lightness of the arrow was actually an advantage, since it allowed the pastoral warrior to carry a large number -up to fifty in his quiver- into battle, which he counted on winning by subjecting the enemy to a disabling hail of missiles.'
(source: J.Keegan:'A History of Warfare',1993)

'Whether compound bows, which get extra power by facing wood with expansible sinew on one side and by compressible horn on the other, were new with the charioteers or had been known earlier is a disputed point. Yigael Yadin, The Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands in the Light of Archaeological Study, 2 vols.(New York,1963), 1:57, says that these bows were invented by the Akkadians of Sargon's era. The basis for this view is a stele representing Naram Sin(~2254-2218BC), Sargon's grandson and successor, with a bow whose shape resembles that of later compound bows. But how to interpret the curve of a bow recorded in stone is obviously indecisive.

Since Han times, and perhaps before, crossbows had been the principal missile weapon of Chinese armies.
No satisfactory account of the development of the crossbow in China seems to exist. A Chinese text, Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yüeh, attributes the invention of the crossbow to a man named Ch'in, from whom the invention passed to three local magnates and from then to Ling, ruler of the state of Ch'u in south central China from 541 to 529BC. Archaeological evidence tends to support this dating, for several tombs of the fifth and fourth centuriesBC contained crossbows. The first notable improvement in crossbow design came in the eleventh century, when Li Ting invented the foot stirrup (about 1068), allowing use of the back and leg muscles for cocking the bow. Correspondingly stronger bows could then be brought into use.

The crossbow had two salient characteristics. First, a crossbow was about as easy to use as a modern handgun. No special strength was needed to **** it. A longbow required years of practice to develop sufficient strength in thumb and fingers to draw the bow to its full arc, whereas once a crossbow had been cocked, all the archer had to do was to place the arrow in firing position, and sight along the stock until a suitable target came into view. A few hours of target practice allowed an ordinary man to use a crossbow quite effectively. Yet Chinese crossbows of the thirteenth century were lethal up to four hundred yards.

Powerful crossbows checked the expansion of knighthood in the thirteenth century when these weapons became common in Mediterranean Europe. In China, crossbows may have helped to discourage reliance on the Iranian style of heavily armored cavalry, for if a crossbowman could knock even an armored cavalryman off his horse, it made no sense to invest in the heavy horse and the expensive armor that put Iranian barons and European knights at the apex of their respective societies. Heavily armored cavalry, after some three centuries of importance in China, disappeared in the seventh century. It is, however, not certain that Chinese crossbows were powerful enough to penetrate armor before the invention of the foot stirrup in the eleventh century.

quote: Originally posted by UltraSonix on 06-22-2000 02:11 AM ...having said that, I think the above points would unbalance the game. Even if cloning did lower your happiness, so what? Your unlimited soldiers could still kill every other civ...

Unlimited soldiers? Don't forget you need resources (nutrients) to build and maintain these armies, whether you're using artificial or natural wombs.

------------------
Learn the mistakes of yesterday to prevent the ones of tomorrow...

1st use of gunpowder in weaponry as incendiary devices - packages of gunpowder attached to arrows, at the end of Tang Dynasty (about 907AD), huojian (fire arrows),

Use of gunpowder as explosive devices - 1120s eg pilipao (thundering gunpowder charge) and zhentianlei (heaven-shaking thunder).

Bronze and iron gun barrels appeared not later than the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368) as huochong (fire gun) and tongjiangjun (bronze generals, 'because of the great awe that these guns inspired'). 'The oldest tongjiangjun now reposing in Beijing's Historical Museum was cast in 1332.'

The weapon mentioned by Par4 is probably the feidaojian (flying-dagger arrow) or feiqiangjian(flying-spear arrow) used in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644)

When I get my scanner to work it would be worthwhile to reprint excerpts from the chapter (which BTW is written in perfect English). The book covers most of the discoveries attributed to China mentioned earlier in the thread and then some. Perhaps more later.

Villages: 9000BC (Fertile Crescent)
Plant Domestication: 8500BC (Fertile Crescent)
Animal Domestication: 8000BC (Fertile Crescent)
Pottery: 7500BC (China)
Chiefdoms: 5500BC (Fertile Crescent)
Widespread Metal tools or artifacts (copper and/or bronze): 4000BC (Fertile Crescent)
States: 3700BC (Fertile Crescent)
Writing: 3200BC (Fertile Crescent)
Widespread Iron tools: 900BC (Fertile Crescent)
(source: J.Diamond:'Guns, Germs and Steel',1998)

Here's the conclusion of the chapter on Gunpowder and Firearms on the dissemination of this technology to the West:

quote: China had established sea trade with India, Persia and the Arab countries early in the Tang Dynasty (618 AD +). Saltpetre, the most important ingredient of gunpowder, was introduced to these countries through the transmission of alchemical and pharmaceutical techniques. Saltpetre was therefore called "China snow" in the Arab countries and "China salt" in Persia. The Arabs and the Persians knew only of its use in metallurgy, medicine and glass-making at first, and learned to use it in gunpowder only between 1225 and 1248, when gunpowder was introduced in the Arab countries by merchants via India. Of the Europeans the Spaniards were the first to learn about gunpowder through translating Arabic classics. Firearms, on the other hand, were introduced to the West in the course of the Mongolian expeditions. History tells us that huojian, duhuoguan (poison fire flask), huopao and zhentianlei were taken to the Middle East by the Mongolian expeditionary forces. The Arabs learned the use and making of gunpowder and firearms from the invaders and were soon producing their own. The Europeans learned the techniques later, in wars against the Arabs. The earliest records concerning gunpowder and firearms appeared in England and France only in the 14th century.

I understand that you are truly busy and of course I have sympathy for it. But if you wish some fanatics including myself to continue our contributions to the Tech Tree, I think you could at least repost the "Master List", so people might possibly read it!

Sanitation:
'Centuries of technological advance culminated in the 16th and 17th centuries in a number of scientific accomplishments. Educated leaders of the time recognized that the political and economic strength of the state required that the population maintain good health. No national health policies were developed in England or on the Continent, however, because the government lacked the knowledge and administrative machinery to carry out such policies. As a result, public health problems continued to be handled on a local community basis, as they had been in medieval times.

Scientific advances of the 16th and 17th centuries laid the foundations of anatomy and physiology. Observation and classification made possible the more precise recognition of diseases. The idea that microscopic organisms might cause communicable diseases had begun to take shape.

Among the early pioneers in public health medicine was John Graunt, who in 1662 published a book of statistics, which had been compiled by parish and municipal councils, that gave numbers for deaths and sometimes suggested their causes. Inevitably the numbers were inaccurate but a start was made in epidemiology.

National developments in the 18th and 19th centuries

Nineteenth-century movements to improve sanitation occurred simultaneously in several European countries and were built upon foundations laid in the period between 1750 and 1830. From about 1750 the population of Europe increased rapidly, and with this increase came a heightened awareness of the large numbers of infant deaths and of the unsavoury conditions in prisons and in mental institutions.

This period also witnessed the beginning and the rapid growth of hospitals. Hospitals founded in Britain, as the result of voluntary efforts by private citizens, helped to create a pattern that was to become familiar in public health services. First, a social evil is recognized and studies are undertaken through individual initiative. These efforts mold public opinion and attract governmental attention. Finally, such agitation leads to governmental action.

This era was also characterized by efforts to educate people in health matters. In 1852 Sir John Pringle published a book that discussed ventilation in barracks and the provision of latrines. Two years earlier he had written about jail fever (now thought to be typhus), and again he emphasized the same needs as well as personal hygiene. In 1754 James Lind published a treatise on scurvy, a disease caused by a lack of vitamin C.

As the Industrial Revolution developed, the health and welfare of the workers deteriorated. In England, where the Industrial Revolution and its bad effects on health were first experienced, there arose in the 19th century a movement toward sanitary reform that finally led to the establishment of public health institutions. Between 1801 and 1841 the population of London doubled; that of Leeds nearly tripled. With such growth there also came rising death rates. Between 1831 and 1844 the death rate per thousand increased in Birmingham from 14.6 to 27.2; in Bristol, from 16.9 to 31; and in Liverpool, from 21 to 34.8. These figures were the result of an increase in the urban population that far exceeded available housing and of the subsequent development of conditions that led to widespread disease and poor health.

Around the beginning of the 19th century humanitarians and philanthropists in England worked to educate the population and the government on problems associated with population growth, poverty, and epidemics. Thomas Malthus wrote in 1798 about population growth, its dependence on food supply, and the control of breeding by contraceptive methods. The utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham propounded the idea of the greatest good of the greatest number as a yardstick against which the morality of certain actions might be judged. Thomas Southwood Smith founded the Health of Towns Association in 1839, and by 1848 he served as a member of the new government department, then called the General Board of Health. He published reports on quarantine, cholera, yellow fever, and the benefits of sanitary improvements.

The Poor Law Commission, created in 1834, explored problems of community health and suggested means for solving them. Its report, in 1838, argued that "the expenditures necessary to the adoption and maintenance of measures of prevention would ultimately amount to less than the cost of the disease now constantly engendered." Sanitary surveys proved that a relationship exists between communicable disease and filth in the environment, and it was said that safeguarding public health is the province of the engineer rather than of the physician.

The Public Health Act of 1848 established a General Board of Health to furnish guidance and aid in sanitary matters to local authorities, whose earlier efforts had been impeded by lack of a central authority. The board had authority to establish local boards of health and to investigate sanitary conditions in particular districts. Since this time several public health acts have been passed to regulate sewage and refuse disposal, the housing of animals, the water supply, prevention and control of disease, registration and inspection of private nursing homes and hospitals, the notification of births, and the provision of maternity and child welfare services.

Advances in public health in England had a strong influence in the United States, where one of the basic problems, as in England, was the need to create effective administrative mechanisms for the supervision and regulation of community health. In America recurrent epidemics of yellow fever, cholera, smallpox, typhoid, and typhus made the need for effective public health administration a matter of urgency. The so-called Shattuck report, published in 1850 by the Massachusetts Sanitary Commission, reviewed the serious health problems and grossly unsatisfactory living conditions in Boston. Its recommendations included an outline for a sound public health organization based on a state health department and local boards of health in each town. In New York City (in 1866) such an organization was created for the first time in the United States.

Nineteenth-century developments in Germany and France pointed the way for future public health action. France was preeminent in the areas of political and social theory. As a result the public health movement in France was deeply influenced by a spirit of public reform. The French contributed significantly to the application of scientific methods for the identification, treatment, and control of communicable disease.

Although many public health trends in Germany resembled those of England and France, the absence of a centralized government until after the Franco-German War did cause significant differences. After the end of that war and the formation of the Second Reich, a centralized public health unit was formed. Another development was the emergence of hygiene as an experimental laboratory science. In 1865 the creation at Munich of the first chair in experimental hygiene signaled the entrance of science into the field of public health.

There were other advances. The use of statistical analysis in handling health problems emerged. The forerunner of the United States Public Health Service came into being, in 1798, with the establishment of the Marine Hospital Service. Almost one hundred years later, the service enforced port quarantine for the first time. (Port quarantine was the isolation of a ship at port for a limited period to allow time for the manifestation of disease.)

Developments from 1875

The work of an Italian bacteriologist, Agostino Bassi, with silkworm infections early in the 19th century prepared the way for the later demonstration that specific organisms cause a number of diseases. Some questions, however, were still unanswered. These included problems related to variations in transmissibility of organisms and in susceptibility of individuals to disease. Light was thrown on these questions by discoveries of human and animal carriers of infectious diseases.

In the last decades of the 19th century the French chemist Louis Pasteur, the Germans Ferdinand Julius Cohn and Robert Koch, and others developed methods for isolating and characterizing bacteria; the English surgeon Joseph Lister developed concepts of antiseptic surgery; the English physician Ronald Ross identified the mosquito as the carrier of malaria; a French epidemiologist, Paul-Louis Simond, provided evidence that plague is primarily a disease of rats spread by rat fleas; and two Americans, Walter Reed and James Carroll, demonstrated that yellow fever is caused by a filterable virus carried by mosquitoes. Thus, modern public health and preventive medicine owe much to the early medical entomologists and bacteriologists. A further debt is owed bacteriology because of its offshoot, immunology.

In 1881 Pasteur established the principle of protective vaccines and thus stimulated an interest in the mechanisms of immunity. The development of microbiology and immunology had immense consequences for community health. In the 19th century the efforts of health departments to control contagious disease consisted in attempts to improve environmental conditions. As bacteriologists identified the microorganisms that cause specific diseases, progress was made toward the rational control of specific infectious diseases.

In the United States the diagnostic bacteriologic laboratory was developed--a practical application of the theory of bacteriology, which evolved largely in Europe. These laboratories, established in many cities to protect and improve the health of the community, were a practical outgrowth of the study of microorganisms, just as the establishment of health departments was an outgrowth of an earlier movement toward sanitary reform. And just as the health department was the administrative mechanism for dealing with community health problems, the public health laboratory was the tool for the implementation of the public health program. Evidence of the effectiveness of this new phase of public health may be seen in statistics of immunization against diphtheria--in New York City the mortality rate due to diphtheria fell from 785 per 100,000 in 1894 to 1.1 per 100,000 in 1940.

While improvements in environmental sanitation during the first decade of the 20th century were valuable in dealing with some problems, they were of only limited usefulness in solving the many health problems found among the poor. In the slums of England and the United States malnutrition, venereal disease, alcoholism, and other diseases were widespread. Nineteenth-century economic liberalism held that increased production of goods would eventually bring an end to scarcity, poverty, and suffering. By the turn of the century, it seemed clear that deliberate and positive intervention by reform-minded groups, including the state, also would be necessary. For this reason many physicians, clergymen, social workers, public-spirited citizens, and government officials promoted social action. Organized efforts were undertaken to prevent tuberculosis, lessen occupational hazards, and improve children's health.

The first half of the 20th century saw further advances in community health care, particularly in the welfare of mothers and children and the health of schoolchildren, the emergence of the public health nurse, and the development of voluntary health agencies, health education programs, and occupational health programs.

In the second half of the 19th century two significant attempts were made to provide medical care for large populations. One was by Russia, and took the form of a system of medical services in rural districts; after the Communist Revolution, this was expanded to include complete government-supported medical and public health services for everyone. Similar programs have since been adopted by a number of European and Asian countries. The other attempt was prepayment for medical care, a form of social insurance first adopted toward the close of the 19th century in Germany, where prepayment for medical care had long been familiar. A number of other European countries adopted similar insurance programs.

In the United Kingdom, a royal-commission examination of the Poor Law in 1909 led to a proposal for a unified state medical service. This service was the forerunner of the 1946 National Health Service Act, which represented an attempt by a modern industrialized country to provide services to all people.

In recent years prenatal care has made a substantial contribution to preventive medicine, for it is hoped that through the education of mothers the physical and psychological health of families may be influenced and passed on to succeeding generations. Prenatal care provides the opportunity to educate the mother in personal hygiene, diet, exercise, the damaging effects of smoking, the careful use of alcohol, and the dangers of drug abuse.

Public health interests also have turned to such disorders as cancer, cardiac disease, thrombosis, lung disease, and arthritis, among others. There is increasing evidence that several of these disorders are caused by factors in the environment; for example, the association of cigarette smoking with certain lung and cardiovascular diseases. Theoretically, they are preventable if the environment can be altered. Health education is of great importance and is a responsibility of national and local government agencies as well as voluntary bodies. Life expectancy has increased in almost every country, except where public health standards are low.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'public health')

Trade: there is evidence that the sumerians already had trade contacts with the indus culture (3rd millenium BC). in the time of sargon of akkad (~2330-2274BC), direct trade routes reached from egypt and oman to the indus valley.

University: Don't forget the University of Cairo and many other arabian universities. the university of salerno actually was founded on very similar concepts. it is no surprise that the first european uni was in southern italy, where the arabian influence was tremendous. i think the athenian "akademia" can also be viewed as a university

Map Making: Although Babylonians already tried to get a vision of the "world", maps didn't become useful to measure distances until roman times ("itineraria"). those maps were very useful for the military, as they could act/move more effectively. The most important document of roman "itineraria" is the tabula peutingeriana.
the distances between cities and important landmarks are very exact, but they didn't care at all about the real form of the coast line or flows of rivers.
source: V.Pantenburg, Das Porträt der Erde, Stuttgart 1970

palace: there have always been special buildings for the purpose of accommodating rulers. a special mention among the early palaces deceives the "palace culture" of minoan crete (~1700-1450 BC)

library: libraries for administration date back to the ancient near east. the most important was probably the palace library of tell el-amarna (under the rule of AmenophisIV = Echnaton 1353-1336 BC)

chariot: there were actually two absolutely different kinds to use the chariot: either as a kind of "mounted archers" (the egyptian chariot) and as a kind of "heavy cavalry" to make one threatening assault on the main infantry line and "break the lines" (assyrian/hittite chariot).

phalanx: really needs an update in the master list. s.kroeze made some good points. some of the mentions in the master list are simply untrue. e.g.: hoplite was never the name of the unit, it was the name of the fighters in the phalanx (from hoplon=round shield). and before philipp, it was no " javelin throwing unit"

paper currency: as already invented in china because of a gold shortage. people had to deliver their their gold and received the paper instead. (have to look up the source). in europe, the first country that introduced it was SWEDEN.

thanks for reposting the master list. I am going to take a good look at it this weekend and see if I can add anything.

Dear Yin26,

I still wish your original project will be finished someday and I am still willing to help, but -as I said before- I do not have enough time. I also think you vastly underestimated the difficulty of the entire project. It is extremely hard to say something useful about Chemistry or Engineering when it's not your field of knowledge. On the other hands, scientists as a rule lack the historical understanding and the expertise to search in an efficient way for reliable literature. It is a pity that Harel thought he could handle it and subsequently disappeared...

Perhaps Vrank Prins is willing to help; he once offered help with the 'Related Threads'. And he has at least some historical background, I guess.

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 10-31-2000 07:38 AM Great, I've seen that the "Apolytonions" asked if it was possible to link things up. Maybe things could also be alfabetically indexed. And if you need any help with that ....

Sincere regards,

Flight[/b]: The problem here will be defining who invented it: Santos Dummont or the Wright brothers?--NoviceCEO==I'm saying Clement Ader in 1890 A.D.--Yuvo==For all practical purposes the Warplane came into being at the end of 1914, with adoption of the machine gun. The early reconnaissance planes shot at each other with pistols and rifles, or threw items at one another. The first bombers appears to be the Sikorsky Ilya Mouremetz V (Russia) 1915, Voisin 5 (French) 1915, Siemens-Schuckert R1 (German) 1915, RAF R.E. 7 (Britain) 1915--Joseph=="Becoming interested in aerial flight, he made a balloon ascent in 1898 and then began to construct dirigible airships. After many failures he built one that in 1901 won the Deutsch Prize and a prize from the Brazilian government for the first flight in a given time from Saint-Cloud to the Eiffel Tower and return. Shortly after the Wright brothers' flights in 1903, Santos-Dumont turned his attention to heavier-than-air machines. After experimenting with a vertical-propeller model, in 1906 he built a machine, the 14-bis, on the principle of the box kite, and in October he won the Deutsch-Archdeacon Prize for the first officially observed powered flight in Europe; in November he flew 220 metres in 21 seconds." Dummont is had as the official inventor of Flight (at least for the patriot Brazilians), as he build and flew the first "heavier-than-air" machine. Unlike the Wright's flight, his' was obsorved by plenty of witness. Date:1906. Take a look at Wright, Wilbur and Orville, also from britannica.com: "American brothers, inventors, and aviation pioneers who achieved the first powered, sustained, and controlled airplane flight (1903) and built and flew the first fully practical airplane (1905)."--NoviceCEO==1933 as first flight of the DC-2 and first production run of the DC-3

I am not sure whether the Reformation should be a tech or some type of game concept that works with religion when it is implemented into the game. Regardless there can be no debate that the reformation changed Western Civ for ever.

From Encarta.com:
Despite the diversity of revolutionary forces in the 16th century, the Reformation had largely consistent results throughout Western Europe. In general, the power and wealth lost by the feudal nobility and the Roman Catholic hierarchy passed to the middle classes and to monarchical rulers. Various regions of Europe gained political, religious, and cultural independence. Even in countries such as France and the region now known as Belgium,where Roman Catholicism continued to prevail, a new individualism and nationalism in culture and politics developed. The Protestant emphasis on personal judgment furthered the development of democratic governments based on the collective choice of individual voters. The destruction of the medieval system of authority removed traditional religious restrictions on trade and banking, and opened the way for the growth of modern capitalism. During the Reformation national languages and literature were greatly advanced by the wide dissemination of religious literature written in the languages of the people, rather than in Latin. Popular education was also stimulated through the new schools founded by Colet in England, Calvin in Geneva, and the Protestant princes in Germany. Religion became less the province of a highly privileged clergy and more a direct expression of the beliefs of the people. Religious intolerance, however, raged unabated, and all the sects continued to persecute one another for at least a century.

quote: Originally posted by Par4 on 06-21-2000 09:45 AM tech: Cloning What it does, don't know Maybe a boost in food production(clone dem sheep) a lowering of the happiness level and a boost in science Whatacha think?

I think like many people you have misunderstood the real meaning of cloning. It does not allow you to produce loads of sheep, or whatever quickly. Cloning allows you to grow a lifeform with identical DNA. It does not have anything to do with rate of growth. You could imagine a future tech which allows growth of a sheep in a nutrient vat or something which would circumvent the requirement of needing fields or whatever but this is only useful in extreme circumstances (e.g. very polluted planet, alien world, in space).

Cloning is just not as big a deal as people think.

You certainly cannot clone a soldier and expect him to (a) grow in a couple of weeks just because he is a clone
(b) have the memory/skills of the original. He would be born a baby and spend years growing up.

in game terms:
a cloned solder would take more shields than a normal solder and be no different.

You are quite correct with your assesment of science.

However, don't you think that it is possible that in the future with experience with cloning that scientist will be able to make fully developed and fully grown humans?