Too many wonders are American and why is 'The Agency' (American) a wonder? The British MI6 was established hundreds of years ago so why isn't that a wonder?

Oh, and I think the description of 'Democracy' in the great library is incorrect. It makes it soundlike America invented Democracy. Ancient Greece used democracy thousands of years ago, and Iceland used democracy before America was even discovered by Europeans.

Oh and did it slip someones mind with the 'Emancipation act' that Britain had abolished slavery 50 YEARS or so beforehand?

Perhaps Britan abolished Slavery years before The US, But we did it with *flair* (Its a joke... :Smirk

The point here is that if the game was created in your country instead of ours, it would reflect the acomplishments of your nation over that of the United States.

As for ctp1, I believe you are refering to the Virtual Democracy. That Government was tailored to appear like it was a creation of the 'States'. Hence the Staue of Liberty and The American Flag shown within the FMV sequence.

The actual 'Democracy' Goverment however, really had no implications that it was a US born creation.

On a parting note though, I think for CTP2 they should include a new goverment. "Representative Republic". As that is what the United States Goverment really is, Not a Democracy.. (Although we are quickly becomming a Corporate Republic.. ).

Just My thoughts, I could be wrong..

I was not implying that there should be more British wonders and elements (I think Britain was overrepresented in Civ2 in terms of wonders) I think there should be more worldwide achievenments.

THE FACT THAT EVERY MODERN WONDER IS AMERICAN IS SURELY A HUGE INNACCURACY.

The futuristic wonders are far too America-centric.

I have no problem with the modern wonders. Of the modern wonders, 1 was invented by a Brit (Internet) and 1 is a joint American and British effort (Genome Project). It is fairly diffficult to name a set of Modern wonders that are not America-centric or British-centric. As they are the leading powers of the time. The only 'foreign' wanders worthery of mention are - Olympic Games, Suez Canal (a french-British joint venture) and possibly the Eiffel Tower.

Virtual Democracy was.. :P

I will check it out, if I am wrong I will correct my former statement.

A few points though. If anyone posting on this topic could Post the wonders you thought were a little 'too american' :P I would like to hear them. I cannot remember all of the wonders but from what I can recall, the Emancipation Act, Hollywood And the Agency were all protraied as being American in orgin.

I don't mean to cause arguments for no reason and I do agree with you all, it would be nice for the game to be more balanced.

quote: Originally posted by Va-Toran on 10-21-2000 11:13 AM I have no problem with the modern wonders. Of the modern wonders, 1 was invented by a Brit (Internet) and 1 is a joint American and British effort (Genome Project).

Now I would have sworn that the Internet was invented by Al Gore....

On a more serious note, what was a Brit doing working on a US Defence Agency project(DARPAnet)?

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Big Dave

I think that the INTERNET is American and the WEB is a British innovation. (I could be wrong).

I agree that the US has done a lot of the modern wonders today but a couple of others could be Karl Marx's teachings (more Ind. Rev. I know but there isn't an 'industrial rev. era' in the unmodified CTP) and the channel tunnel (due to the fact that it is a great technological feat).

Red_Jon, I like you!

As you can see, I am Dutch and the Dutch have their prides. One of these prides (the VOC, or East Indies Company, although some reject it, since force was sometimes used excessively)
This was a wonder (and a good one!).

However, there are more Dutch prides:
CIVIL ENGINEERING PROJECTS
(I admit, I am a student in Civil Engineering)
The Delta-project is one of the modern wonders of the world, espescially the "Stormvloedkering" (a dam that can be closed during storms, but which is open in normal situation.)

There can be some good reasons to allow this wonder, however, like in CIV2, only the Hoover Dam (even when civ 2 was released, there are bigger dams in the world)
the most wonders were American.

Some good wonders would be:
The Channel tunnel
The Delta Project
(Re)claiming of Flevoland (a Dutch province, gained from the sea)

The Apollo Project
International Space Station (to build WITH another CIV
or, Mir if you do not want to co-operate)
the Panama Canal (or Suez Canal)
Olympic games

I am thinking on more wonders.

Critics please!

Bye,

(granted they're mostly from Europe)

How about some modern Japanese wonders (they seem to have made a lot of technological advances)?

Ancients wonders should be centered towards Greece, Rome and Egypt, etc., Rennaisance from Europe and China and modern from the US, Europe, Japan and Russia.

OH, and ChaingKaiShek, I wouldn't call a very bloody civil war 'flair'.

And while we're at it - as possible wonders why not the:

Taj Mahal
Sydney Opera House (or Harbour Bridge) (or both)
Eiffel Tower
United Nations (OK, another Anglo-American Invention)
The Bourse or "Stock Market" (not the London Exchange - Stock Markets are another Dutch idea)

and for the future:
Amazon Forest Reservation
Polar Ice Cap Stablisation
Martian Landings

But if you really want something Japanese, my vote would have to go to the musical golf club (joke)

I never understanded why Apollo project was the space wonder, when was USSR Sputnik the first satellite, and USSR Gagarin the firs cosmonaut.

USA won the race to the Moon, mostly because it was the race they set to run.

They had better scientific program at the time (X-15 planes and X-20 lifting body research - years before the Shuttle - and a permanent space station), but they discarded them just to win the Apollo race, with a lot less scientific advances at a greater expense.

Really a bit less than a wonder, by another point of view

Most of us from the English-speaking world would have trouble with this. Our view of the world is so skewed by American thinking which dominates popular culture.

There were quite a number of good suggestions for non-American wonders at the civ3 forum.

Nevertheless, a better representation of WoWs (Wonder of the World) would be great!
At least the US is not the world, though some do believe that

Are you proposing the Brittish or other parliments of colonial-era europe as the inventors? The Magna Carta guarenteed rights, but, as Americans (and other colonials) were so fond of pointing out, they were not represented in parliment.

Or we could pick groups like the Iroquois (Native American) League, whose form of represenative-democracy was based on compromise over majority rule.

There are also more recent democracies, any of which added improvements to the model.

IMHO, there was no "inventor" of democracy, rather it evolved over time through many different forms.

As for CTP being overly American, that's easily fixed: change the names!

quote: Originally posted by Stratesford on 10-23-2000 05:37 AM They should also put some latin american wonders too. like in anncient times the "el Castillo" or "tikal". in the R. they should put "teotihuacan" (site of the biggest pyramid in the world), for modern times they should put something like "Rio d' janeiro" that giives caravns more money(turists) or cancun (fyi: mexico is the country with more turists/population, 2nd place is korea, why korea?)

IIRC in CtP1 there was Chichen Itza.

Ata

I thought this was the first university in the world (excuse me if I'm wrong)

It could become obsolete, after computer has been invented.

ADM.Naismith: I mentioned the Mir project and the ISS. These are projects in which the US has no or minor scientific experience.
The Apollo project was THE objective in the space-race. Not just the first man or satellite, although you are COMPLETELY right with your point. And the Apollo project would make a better wonder, certainly with the race to it. The invention is spaceflight (Soviets were the first tto discover) and the Americans to first complete the wonder.

Sorry, but on this point, I prefer the Lunar landings.

I like the bullet train idea, but was the bullet train the first highspeed train (on a seperate railroad)? Or was it the TGV in France. It should get obsolete with the invention of the superconductor. (Maglevs)

The International Court of Appeals (the war tribunal in The Hague, The Netherlands) could also make a good wonder, counting as a courthouse in every city (perhabs even throughout the world). Something like the Chichzen Itza in the Modern age. No obsolence.

Critics again, please

Bye,

I have forgotten something...

The University of Paris (or if another city had the first university, that city) and an implimentation:
Universities in all of your cities.

Bye,

I like the bullet train, UN, olympics, international space station, geneva convention, and sydney opera house as non-US wonders.

Instead of a wonder like contraception to add to happiness what about of a civil rights type wonder. Could apply to many countries where minority groups have experienced increased rights and improved treatment (U.S., South Africa, Australia, creation of Israel, etc.)

quote: Originally posted by Tilemacho on 10-23-2000 09:06 AM Well I think you need some more history lessons before you can say things like that... It's a huge difference to have Democracy (with all the problems someone could adress) in a time where everyone else has Monarchy and Tyranny, and have a Democracy that functions better in a time that many others try the same system.....

Actually, I am well versed in world history. You, as a Greek, probably have read the history of Thucydides-if you have, it shows how badly the Athenians treated Alcibiades. Also, the whims of public opinion were well documented in the disaterous Sicilian campaign.

The use of the ostrakan to banish anyone people didn't like isn't much like modern democracy, where people aren't banished or killed after they lose office.

Roman democracy was pleasing the crowds, and constant warfare between demagogues, is this real democracy?

Plus, American democracy was closer to a Republic in the early years, up to the Civil War.

MHO, that is.

Other wonder ideas, some dragged in from Civ II:-

Marco Polo's Journey
Great Zimbabwe (mysterious city in Southern Africa)
King Solomon's Mines
Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem

Well, now that I've deleted my little rant on success-bashing, I'll agree that CTP was written in the U.S. and with a great lack of historical research. Best of luck educating Activision.

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Big Dave

That said, maybe if we throw all the wonders (like the Masoleum of Miletus) back in, we'll get a list that's sufficiently Anglo-American-Egyptian-Greek-centric to please everyone...

...er, wait, where does that leave the Aussies and the Canadians?

Oh, and don't forget, even though greece did not allow everyone to vote, DID THE AMERICANS BEFORE 1950?

Freedom and equality has evolved over time, it was not invented all at once, so perhaps in a future game, you should be able to grant rights graually?

Also, Big Dave, Brits are working with us on intelligence gathering so they can spy on our citizens, we can spy on them, and then we can share info without breaking US law, isn't that great? UKUSA or Echelon. Oh, and the historical relevence of the Magna Carta is vastly overstated, it just mean that they king had to work with the aristocracy a bit more to exploit the masses, and while the US constitution is good, I'd say the Dec of Independence has had more of an impact on the world. (Even Ho Chi Minh used it as a guide).

About space stations, I think Apollo represented the technology to get stuff that high into space that worked, it's like a nationalistic achievement and it shows you have technology for advanced satellites too. Uh, and we had Skylab too. and we're building most of the ISS

The Magna Carta is a ground-breaking document every bit as important as the US Dec of Indep. Yes it deals mainly with king and nobility, but what it established was that the law was superior to the king, and that the king was required to respect certain rights - both those of nobles and commoners. This was in the early 1200s - no other nation produced similar statements for 500 years (to my knowledge). Without the Magna Carta, the principles underlying all "Rights of Man" documents would not have been established (IMHO). Recent experience would suggest that US Presidents may still consider themselves above the law (Nixon, Clinton). Maybe America needs a Magna Carta?

The UK abolished slavery in the 1820s and 1830s, and Royal Navy vessels were permanently stationed off African slave grounds to intercept and prevent slave-trading vessels crossing the Atlantic from at least the 1840s. As I recall, the US didn't do all that much about slavery (besides promoting it) for another 20 years.

There is very little basis for setting up Democracy/anti-slavery wonders as America-based!

To sit there and respond to everything with "Well that may be true, but the Americans..." Does nothing except prove you have been set in an 'anti american' way of thinking.

Your country has had its time to inflict wounds upon the surface of this world, and now it is our turn. I only hope I live long enough to see the day that "Great" Britian is nothing more than an American Provinence.

The entire point is, its a game.. It isen't going to be exact (Although its kinda nice when it is). If you want to play History, then either design your own game or read a book (Reading books afterall, it a much better activity..)

May your narrow-minded thinking lead you to your demise..

Anyways.. We will all just have to wait and see what kinda crappy new wonders Activision throws our way, I'm sure many of you out there will find some little thing to bicker about; to get offended over. I myself cannot wait for the game.

Personally I think that the "American" culture should not be able to be chosen, you should be the British first, and then maybe a new discovery or wonder will cause the change to the Americans. Afterall, its rather cheesy to pick the Americans and have to start off at 4000b.c.

-CKS

quote: Originally posted by Chris Horscroft on 10-26-2000 09:02 PM There is very little basis for setting up Democracy/anti-slavery wonders as America-based!

The problem here is again a lack of historical research by Activision. Yes, the Emancipation Proclimation is from the U.S. But the American Civil War (ACW) was not fought over slavery, as is mistakenly taught in U.S. schools. It was fought over states rights. But since most U.S. citizens believe that the ACW was about slavery this makes the Emancipation Proclimation a U.S. wonder.
Respectfully,

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Big Dave

quote: To sit there and respond to everything with "Well that may be true, but the Americans..." Does nothing except prove you have been set in an 'anti american' way of thinking.

Sorry, I disagree. Lot of us have good opinion about U.S.A. people: why in neck every time we underline USA IS/WAS NOT the only true and good nation on earth, someone become so angry?

I think that whole world was, is and must will be more than only a nation (whatsoever) culture, language, habits, and so on.
As Civ game doesn't represent strongly enough, we are on a small planet more like in a small boat: better we learn to listen and respect the others, because I'm not so sure there will be any Unity Starship to save us to Chiron, Alpha centauri

I simply only wished to point out that alot of people here are quick to point out the flaws in the US but seem to 'forget' that which their own nation has done.

I also believe that looking beyond race, place of birth,(Nation you are loyal to!) etc is going to be key in keeping the human race around (I do not believe that we are going to be magically swept away to heaven by the savior of man. More power to those who do, I wish I could share your faith.). When the end comes it will be Man that triggers it and Man that ends it.

This is getting far beyond the topic of the post, so before we get shoved into the off-topic area.

I'd like to see other wonders from other areas of the world, to tell you the truth I dont find many of the US modern wonders very... wonderful.. Quite boring infact. The entire world has accomplished many things, and it would be great if they would be seen as "Human" Wonders instead of "American, British, Dutch, Chinese, etc Wonders".

Anyways, Good day to you all.

Chaing