Every nation on Earth has commited atrocities at some point or another, but it tended to be only the few in power who did it, not the citizens (for example, when the British used concentration camps in the Boer war in South Africa the people back home were horrified- this actually led to them voting for a different party).

This could be used in the game- the 'Age of Reason' in the original could be updated to more than one advance- man didn't change overnight with the discovery of one theory.

Plus, as well as the 'Emancipation Act' (or equivanlent) your government should have the option to stop slavery, before it is built (like the British did).

Perhaps the 'Emancipation Act' (or equivalent) should only stop slaves in republics and democracies (and future equivalents).

It would be great if all of the more successful and influential civilizations who had a significant impact on history should be represented.

I would certainly include wonders related to Ancient China, Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, Medieval Christian Europe, Medieval Muslim Middle East, Renaissance Italy, Spain and Holland, Industrial Age Britain, Germany and Japan, and Modern US and former USSR.

I think there might be others, but if someone is willing to take a step back and have a realistic view of influential civs, the list is not exhaustive. I'm not trying to sound mean, but I think there are some people who are delusional about their nation's impact on world history. I was galled by the fact that CTP included politically correct choices such as Mexico, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Brazil, Jamaica, probably due to American domestic market which includes people from those places.

So while I think the US might be slightly overrepresented in the modern era, I believe it is meant to be a reflection of American influence, particularly in the wake of European decline over the last century. Much as I like Europe, they have been eclipsed and will remain marginal if they hold onto their divisive ethnic conflicts. The US has eclipsed the individual nations of Europe in industrialism, technology, entertainment, etc. The only thing they have more than we do is socialism, and I say they can have it, because that keeps them down. They mask their out-dated thinking by being overpermissive with sex and drugs, while eshewing basic human freedoms such as expression, self-defense and due process under law.

America sucks, but not as bad as the rest of you turkeys.

Anyway, I didn't mean to rant, but I couldn't help feeling this thread is more sour grapes from people who are simply jealous of the US, and who wonder why we Americans aren't trying to be like you in terms of language, culture, etc.

By the way, my own heritage is French, but you don't see me complaining. While the French have had some impact with wine, cheese, art, ballet, etc., as well as figures like Charlemagne, Descartes and Napoleon who certainly had influence, I can't point to wonders uniquely influential about France. MAYBE Versailles, the Eiffel Tower, or the ill-fated Maginot, but even these are only significant for a brief time before being overshadowed by greater achievements elsewhere. I think Charlemagne had more influence for a longer time than anything from post-Renaissance France anyhow, with the possible exception of the Napoleonic Code.

I hope this is instructive to all of you, or should I say, any Americans reading this. I hope the rest of the world continues down the socialist path, and that Americans try to hang on to free market capitalism and individualism, because that will keep America strong.

Which is not to say that things might be great under socialism at first. But after a little while, once it sets in that you aren't really rewarded for extra effort, fewer and fewer put in the extra effort that makes all the difference, until you end up looking more like former USSR with its lines for toilet paper.

I tend to think that many anti-American viewpoints are rooted in this arguement. Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too, including too many of my own fellow countrymen. But the lesson in life is that if you want something you have to do it yourself, hopefully without a government getting in your way or punishing you for succeeding. In our current election cycle, we face the choice once more, and from the look of it America is coming back to its senses, and choosing freedom over socialism!

On-topic...my limited understanding is that many of the acknowledged *great* Wonders are already being used by Civilization II and thus CTP can't use them. Personally I don't care too much for Wonders and would be happy to see them reduced in number. They basically exist to give a civ a boost over the others and if the game has too many Wonders then they just pretty much dilute that intended effect.

Proposed Wonders:
Carnival (Mardi Gras): +3 Happiness throughout all
your civ due to the presence of naked women and
debauchery (go Brazil!).
Patrice Lumumba University: Enables the discovery of
the International Terrorism advance and the
creation of Terrorist units (yay to the former
USSR).
Sinking of the Rainbow Warrior: abolishes the
possibility of Ecotopian governments (props to the
the French).
Baywatch: creation of a TV show that the origin country
refuses to watch, but the rest of the world laps up
up hungrily, resulting in a -10% production for all
civs except the one that builds the Wonder.
Mir Space Station: A 15% increase in Science for 25
turns then one dead tile appears in a foreign civ's
city radii per turn for 10 turns as the debris
falls to Earth (Yo, Russia).
Apartheid: Did that Emancipation Proclamation ruin your
plans? No problem! The civ that builds Apartheid
can start building slavers again and can even
build a new unit called the Death Squad!
Microsoft: The civ that builds this wonder receives
10% of the gold of all other civs and all foreign
civs have their productivity reduced by 20%. The
downside? The civ that creates this Wonder has
their regard reduced by 40% as all foreign civs
have a forum to discuss their dislikes of the host
civ.

All of the above is tongue in cheek and not to be taken seriously.

A vote for Bush/Chaney is akin to letting someone drink all of your beer, sleep with your wife and shoot your dog. Or is it drink with your wife, shoot all your beer and sleep with your dog? Whatever...think twice before voting for the Great Satan (George DubbaU) and his fascist cultist minions like Patrick Roy...

The point is, no one should base their national identitiy on getting their quota of wonders, and, with the ease of changing the names, why should we care which wonders of the world other people think were the most important?

quote: Originally posted by Va-Toran on 10-28-2000 04:20 PM Just a quick point about democracy. The ancient Greek and Roman Republics are represented by the Republic government. The modern democracy, as represented by the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of the USA, reflects modern democratic government, which is not just an American idea.

Democracy Government by the people; a form of government, in which the supreme power is lodged in the hands of the people collectively, or in which the people exercise the powers of legislation. Such was the government of Athens.

Republic A commonwealth; a state in which the exercise of the sovereign power is lodged in representatives elected by the people. In modern usage, it differs from a democracy or democratic state, in which the people exercise the powers of sovereignty in person. Yet the democracies of Greece are often called republics

quote: Originally posted by XMon on 10-27-2000 11:46 PM So how in the past eight years, has this nation steered away from capitalism towards socialism?

While the rest of your post was complete drivel, especially supposedly humorous praise of the Soviet Union, which is completely asinine, and no doubt the result of poor breeding and socialist indoctrination, you did ask this substantive question. Of course you were afraid of an answer because you and the whole world knows the answer . .

Did you ever wonder how the Republicans gained Congress in 1994? It is specifically because a Democrat President, Clinton, and his Democrat Congress attempted to nationalize 1/7 th of the economy, namely, the entire health sector. The Democratic Party has not fully recovered from their mistake, and thankfully the electorate has overall shown far more intellectual maturity than you'll ever muster.

If you love socialism so much, there is a whole world out there full of it. Don't wreck one of the few places where people are still relatively free to succeed.

So while America certainly didn't invent representative government, her system has been the premier model for all peoples seeking self-determination and freedom.

And it is her system that has led to technical innovation and productivity unmatched in human history, and will remain so as long as we cherish what we have inherited from previous generations.

If the choice were left to some perhaps well-meaning but short-sighted individuals, our national inheritance would be quickly squandered, leaving future generations to suffer.

If your mindset is "live fast, die young", then by all means, get it over with, and leave the rest of us who care for the future, whether we'll be here or not.

Your post at no time was coherent to what PJroy had posted. You either need to a) Quit skipping your "Basic Reading and Comprehension 101" classes or re-read his post and try to grasp on what he was saying.

It's a well known fact that the last fascists in the world are currently at the drivers seat of the EU, And no-where near to influencing the United States.

PJ was praising our system here in the USA, while condoning that which has lead Britain down from a World Superpower to a new slums development. Learn to read or move to Canada!

But your list of 'wonders' was humorous..somewhat..

Chaing.

quote: While the rest of your post was complete drivel, especially supposedly humorous praise of the Soviet Union, which is completely asinine, and no doubt the result of poor breeding and socialist indoctrination, you did ask this substantive question. Of course you were afraid of an answer because you and the whole world knows the answer . .

Seven proposed Wonders, two for the US (both of which were backhanded reverse double endaround compliments to this nation in that I referred to a piece of crap TV show that in this country was cancelled from network TV and relegated to syndication yet became the most popular TV show in the rest of the world and the second ref was pointing to the irony of an American system which rests primarily on the shoulders of American servers being the (ironic) backbone of a forum for so many non-Americans to blast America, too "non-obvious" for you I guess). One for Brazil and my most sincere. One mean spirited one for South Africa (b/c I've never seen an SA poster here, thought it was a fairly non-offensive target for lampooning), one for the French very tongue in cheek, and two for the former Soviet Union which PussRoy (pronounced
"puss waaaahhhh") felt praised the former nation (?) which in fact vilified it in the case of PL University being a breeding ground for international terrorism. Perhaps next time I'll speak slower and I'll restrict myself to monosyllabics.

PusRoy, your rhetoric is straight out of the right wing lowest common denominator Mein Kampfian database of unsubstantiated tell the Jerry Springer audience just what they want to hear half truths and distortions of information. Evidence of which is your post which is unbelievably illogical and merely a loose collection of memorized verbatim loaded phrases.

Example: So how in the past eight years, has this nation steered away from capitalism towards socialism?

Answer: Did you ever wonder how the Republicans gained Congress in 1994? It is specifically because a Democrat President, Clinton, and his Democrat Congress attempted to nationalize 1/7 th of the economy, namely, the entire health sector. The Democratic Party has not fully recovered from their mistake, and thankfully the electorate has overall shown far more intellectual maturity than you'll ever muster.

There's a question answered by a non-sequitir question followed by a slice of 900 Club mind control blurb which I'm not even sure is a sentence, the grammar is so bizarrely constructed that I would have to sit down and graph it out to find the subject, predicate etc. Then it's all followed up with a pointed insult which suggests that I am substandard compared to the rest of my nation which PusRoy commends for being intellectually mature enough to vote a Republican majority in 1994 yet unbeknownst to PusRoy elected a Democrat as president in 1996. PussRoy has been thrown off by this turn of the millenium thing apparently, is 1994 before or after 1996?

quote: If you love socialism so much, there is a whole world out there full of it. Don't wreck one of the few places where people are still relatively free to succeed.

Please tell me where I gave any indication that I love socialism? To spell it out for the guys who ride the short bus...my question was: Why do you equate the Democratic Party with Socialism? I've always thought it a stupid connection and that's why I, tongue in cheek, associate the Republican Party with Fascism. Strange that the Republicans never understand the joke. Maybe not. Maybe it's not such a joke after all. Europeans reading this thread may understand that these people like PussRoy are of the same mindset as the Brownshirts and the jackbooted thugs crying for pure Aryan bloodlines and for minority populations to be given separate pieces of land in which to live so they don't bother us "good folk." I am the biggest MF'in capitalist you've ever met. But I do not believe in helping the rich stay rich and subjugating the poor. That is not capitalism as it does not give equal opportunity to all to compete on an equal Darwinian playing field and that is how I interpret Republican domestic agenda. The Republicans suck up to the rich and give lip service to the poor which is closer to Soviet/Sino style communism than it is to capitalism. Believe it or not, I'm not a Democrat! I really do not hate the Republican Party, I just don't like the smarmy yet sadly effective, irrational mob mentality that they cultivate. The stupidity astounds me. If PussRoy hates socialism so much then perhaps he should take on churches. That tithing and giving to the poor...that doesn't help people succeed does it? Just makes 'em lazy right?

quote: Socialism is for people who never grow up. Be a man, and stand on your own two feet, dammit!

Ha! That was funny! I mean it, really.

quote: If your mindset is "live fast, die young", then by all means, get it over with, and leave the rest of us who care for the future, whether we'll be here or not.

Uhhh....this is what I mean by irrational and/or illogical. "Live fast die young" is the capitalist credo wherein we try radical things and fail as we are allowed to do where in communist countries they are not allowed to try and fail, they live a cold gray existence of banality and boredom. I'm starting to think that PussRoy may be what is known as an agent provocateur, one who is of a foreign element who pretends to be "one of us" to better incite discord and rebellion. I hope I'm not causing PussRoy to burn up his fingertips on the old Webster's this evening!

I'll ignore Wes's comment as I love MedMod4 and I'll just assume all that work has left him tired and befuddled.

quote: Wow X-mon, You are truly an idiot... Forget deporting illegal Aliens and such, it's the people like you that should be cast from the shores of the United States.

That's what I love about you fascists: your love and respect for freedom of speech and differing ideas! Wow. I also love how people think that because they have the ability to logon to the net that that means they actually have a brain and thoughts worth sharing. Sharing? No, proselytizing is a better word. "Honey...how'd ya spell idjit? No...no honey, like them teachyers say the word. I-D-I-O-T? You sure that's right honey? Don't look right. Bet that XMon's one them Aliens like what they got on the XFiles and what's in the Pentygon."

quote: Your post at no time was coherent to what PJroy had posted. You either need to a) Quit skipping your "Basic Reading and Comprehension 101" classes or re-read his post and try to grasp on what he was saying.

Dang, I guess you're really stupid. I can't figure out how you jimmied the word "coherent" in there. I guess you meant "Your post did not at all address the points that PRoy (not PJroy) made in his previous assinine post." The next sentence is hilarious! (An aside, I am not an English major nor am I a teacher of grammar; I just have a halfway decent education and I do not live in a trailer.) "You need to either a) quit skipping your "Basic Reading and Comprehension 101" class or b) re-read his assinine post and try to understand what he said." I love how you used "a)" and didn't follow up with a "b)", genius! I'm sorry for being so petty.

quote: It's a well known fact that the last fascists in the world are currently at the drivers seat of the EU, And no-where near to influencing the United States.

Well known to who? If I were of a conspiratorial mindset like you, I could paint a picture showing a direct lineage descending from Project Paperclip and the Gehlen Org to Geo Bush (Sr) and thus to his progeny. But I'm not. So I won't.

quote: PJ was praising our system here in the USA, while condoning that which has lead Britain down from a World Superpower to a new slums development. Learn to read or move to Canada!

Oh jeez...I'm sorry. I get it now! I'm so stupid. You make funny man joke! You must make your jokes more funny so that I understand that they are jokes! Ha ha! You so funny! Nudge nudge wink wink.

Well, I'm sure that I've now consigned this thread to the dustbin but...whatcha gonna do? It would probably also be wise to pick a new nic before I offer up any new units etc as I'd hate to be hated just because I'm beautiful! PussRoy, if your posts above were a joke then just color me dunderheaded and kick me to the side.

True Blue American Freedom Fighter and Public Enemy #1 XMon.

Years ago when the "civilized" men and women of Europe came to this continent to colonize it, they brought pets, violance, war, crime and all of garbage that was piling up in the middle ages. They called savages to the peaceful people of this continent. The Europeans were amazed of what these "savages" could do. Prosperus cities, extensive road systems, government controlled trade, beutiful temples and palaces, organized agriculture. These people

Obviously, judging by your views their should only be one civ to choose from- "American".

There is a thing I think you should pay attention to- its called FACT.

HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY BEEN HERE?

PRoy and Chaing could start up the APFCF party- the American Party For Complete Fascism, believe me, I think you'd be more succesful than Hitler.

You have completely mischaracterized my positions. It might surprise you that I have nothing against private charity, which is voluntary, or even public charity when used for education and to support people who can't work. I was a beneficiary of educational assistance, which is the best way for the nation to invest in the future, especially when coupled with competition between public and private/religious schools.

I also think that America's ethnic diversity is our strength, along with our various rights and freedoms. Apparently you missed that point as well.

When I made my first case against socialism, I never referred to its advocates here, other than to say that Bush is the better choice to avert the expansion of dependency on an oversized central government. To explain it in a way for you to understand, when you a child you are dependant on your parents, who then hold almost dictatorial authority over you. As an adult, you support yourself and are free to screw up your life in any way you see fit, provided you don't expect me to pay for your foolish mistakes. If you expect others to make up for the fact that you didn't work to your full potential in school, or had unprotected sex, or didn't live within your budget, or did drugs, or any number of other immature, irresponsible choices, that would make you a socialist.

There are better, longer term approaches than simply taking from the private sector. Ones that involve more initiative and accountability from citizens.

Either you unwittingly support greater dependence on government, or you haven't kept up with the issues. I will not back down from my invective for socialism, because it is destructive to people in the long run. Socialism feels good today, but before long degenerates to create a bleak society, where no one has incentive to work harder because the extra effort is either not significantly rewarded, or is even punished. One only need look at the stagnant European economies to see where that path leads. Oh, and don't even start on the environment - the former East Bloc was an environmental nightmare unlike anything the free world has ever seen!

On the other hand, you have made all kind of nasty insinuations about my political leanings, etc. The record speak for itself. At most, I told you to grow up. You carry on a dialectic reasonsably well, considering you don't support anything with facts. But it is also clear you that you haven't matured. I am guessing you are still in school, because that is what I infer from your superficial arguments.

Now, getting back to the point of the thread, the reason why American wonders dominate the modern era is based on the success of the American system. No one ever said it was perfect, but it has served as the best example to follow in a variety of ways, one of which is that it has some flexibility, at the same time it holds almost religiously to the Bill of Rights.

It is a system that drew people from all over the world, taking a sparse country to a sprawling one, with some of the world's best talent from every nation. It has been among the most influential through commerce and entertainment, although not in ways that I would always agree with.