I'm wondering mostly about the marketplace/bank and library/university combinations. I think I read in an old thread here that libraries are only economical when the city is generating 6 beakers, and marketplaces when the city has 5 coins. And since then, I've sort of blindly followed that formula.

So for me, build order is usually units or caravans until I get to the 6 beaker point... then a library. Marketplace will follow usually. Temples are built somwhere in there, depending on the game level and the wonders I have. I usually try to get aqueducts built even if I have happiness problems, just because I hate to see growth stall. After that, it's pretty haphazard.

Any thoughts?

My experience generally is that the opportunity cost of building City Improvements is too great early in the game...producation on other tasks (ie settlers and wonders) results in higher future benefits for a civ as a whole. In addition, technology is scattered early in the game and trading base techs with other civs early in the game (later is a different story IMO) is very beneficial without affecting the tech balance. Tech trading reduces the need for science-based improvements early in the game. As for production, small cities are usually operating at low capacity early in the game so the short-run benefit of a production-based wonder IMO is not that great.

In coastal cities I build harbor followed by aqueduct as my first two improvements. The three arrows the ocean gives helps the city celebrate without other 'happiness' improvements, with help of wonders of course.

My empire really goes off like a rocket at this stage. Money is flowing in in increasing speed to help rushbuy all those improvements. I don't build libraries a lot, my SSC takes care of sciense

When a city has all the necessary improvements to keep WLTxD going I rushbuild settlers/engineers and add them to my newly found cities to get them to size 3 so that they start WLTxD-growing as well.

I usually set tax/sciense/luxury to 30-30-40 for celebration. After most of the cities have grown to the current max, I drop luxuries to 20%. After more roads/irrigations/improvements I start the cycle of WLTxD's again.

Now, starting with 7 arrows, the problem becomes interresting:
A: 2g.-5b.
B: 3g.-4b.

In case A, I will not build a MP nor a lib.
In case B, I could build a lib.., for a net 2g.-6b., better than case B.
and it is even more interresting with 8, 9, ... arrows

Now the question is how much does it cost me to build that lib?
A city producing 7 arrows in monarchy is - in my games - typically size 5, thus producing 5 shields. A lib is produced in only 16 turns, usually less because I pay...
It could be worth it, isn't it?

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Dry on 02-08-2001 01:08 PM</font> A city producing 7 arrows in monarchy is - in my games - typically size 5, thus producing 5 shields. A lib is produced in only 16 turns,

You need to compare expense and profit only:
case B:
1. your proposition: to build the library
instant expense: 80-200 gold (1 shield is between 1 gold (sell improvement, disband unit) and 2.5 gold (incremental rushbuild))
expense/day:1 gold
profit/day: 2 beakers

2. to build caravan
I believe it is much better (La Fayette might send you some calculations, he is expert about caravans)

3. suppose you are at ocean(1 food+2 trade) and you cultivate it (it seems you go for beakers, since you want the library so much) and there is food surplus at least 1.
Even to let work one Einstein (3 beakers) instead of one ocean square and to build a granary is better solution than 1.
comparison with 1.:
instant profit: 20-50 gold (granary costs 60 shields only)
expense/day: no expense
profit/day: 1 beaker+food surplus (granary doubles food surplus) -1 food

quote: usually less because I pay...

The 20 turns for caravan I was talking about are: 10 turns to produce + minimum 10 turns to reach destination (I remember a caravan, sent in a wrong direction because at that time I did not discovered any other civ, wandering for 500 years before being destroyed by a barb... really expensive, right ?).

The question was not libraries or (exclusive) caravans, it was: maybe it is possible to have libs even before
being able to send caravans.
La Fayette wrote that he did not build any improvement before he produced 12-15 arrows. Besides the fact that I wondered how big such cities were, I did not agree with him and I explained why.
Those libs *are* expensive in a 3-7-0 situation, but maybe affordable in a 4-6-0 situation.

I am no library lover, but in some games I tried the 4-6-0 approach and it was not so bad... I have the feeling it is even better, but I need of course to improve this (new) gamestyle.

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 02-03-2001 12:10 PM I'm wondering, in a typical game, what you build first as a permanent city improvement? And is there a point where you always build a particular improvement, for example when a city reaches a certain size? I'm wondering mostly about the marketplace/bank and library/university combinations. I think I read in an old thread here that libraries are only economical when the city is generating 6 beakers, and marketplaces when the city has 5 coins. And since then, I've sort of blindly followed that formula.

In general, I only build city improvements when I can rush-build them. When I have some money to spare, I go through my cities and select the ones that can profit the most from a new improvement.
In a large empire, the usual order is Temple - Library - Marketplace, but if the city has two or more fish or whales tiles a Harbor has the highest priority.

If I don't have the Pyramids, Granaries are built only in a couple of cities, these will constantly produce Settlers who will then be re-homed, if necessary, to other cities.

Ribannah,
Warning: in this thread, it is polite to include one french sentence.

(Actually, I am flaunting my language abilities: I want to highlight that not only my english is perfect )

quote: In general, I only build city improvements when I can rush-build them.

I suppose you can home the settler in the right city easily.

BTW, it is ideal to finish the production of a settler so that the food storage of diminished city will be almost full but not overfull. Hmm, I start to miss the topic.

quote: ...when I can rush-build them.

Julius Brenzaida,

quote: In my opinion, it is tougher to get the science you want, than money.

Dry,

quote: The 20 turns for caravan I was talking about are: 10 turns to produce + minimum 10 turns to reach destination

quote: Those libs *are* expensive in a 3-7-0 situation, but maybe affordable in a 4-6-0 situation.

BTW, I constructed the example 3. since I wanted to find ANY example that is comparable and works better than a library for a 7-gold situation. I didn't want to say you should replace libraries by granaries in civ games : I needed to compensate a loss of one food that occured when I substituted one ocean square by Einstein.

quote: I don't build granaries in the early turns, because - beside the fact that I don't need them at deity level...

quote: produce some shields, rush build a granary, switch immediatly back to original building and finish the production of the last 20 shield in a few turns.

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 03:39 PM</font> I try to build settlers ... ... if decrease of number of citizen caused by a settler production 1. is welcomed (prospective growth of a city is impossible/inefficient/will be impossible in near future) 2. will be easily compensated (i. e. number of citizens will grow back fast: small cities, cities with a granary, cities with a large food production)

Point 2:
Efficiency of settler production depends not only
a) on the number of turns needed to refill the food storage to the original condition.
You forgot to include
b) on the frequency of subsequent city growths: any future city growth will be delayed by number of turns mentioned in a)

This presuppose that the level of food production will be unchanged in comparison with an original course (the course in the city not producing a settler). Point 1 alerts to the situation where the food production may be increased (needn't be retarded).

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 03:39 PM Ribannah, Warning: in this thread, it is polite to include one french sentence.

Bien ca alors!

quote: If you don't build improvements, what do you build? Settlers?

Settlers, Warriors, Diplomats, Triremes, Caravans and Wonders.

[/quote]I try to build settlers only in cities with granaries and in cities that reached size limit.
[/quote]

I keep an eye on where I need those Settlers, the timing of Trireme visits, and whether the city has enough food surplus left (I want at least +2 food).

quote: I don't understand why to agree with following sentence: If I don't rushbuild, I don't build an improvement.

Because if you plan it right, you will have the cash available at the time you want that improvement.

quote: ... if you want to augment beaker production in 4-6-0 situation then it is better to use scientists.

It is even better to put those scientists in a library. If necessary, simply adjust to 10% less science an you'll have more income AND more science.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 03:39 PM Could you comment my comparison between 1. and 3. in my last post?

I agree with you for the research increase in 3., but you are then in a situation 3-7-0 with improvement costing 1/turn...
I am not so at ease with population in oceans. Usually I avoid that, prefering squares producing 4+ 'things' (food-shield-arrow), the more, the best.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-15-2001 10:09 AM You would transfer 1 beaker to 1 gold and lose 1 beaker due to rounding of library profit (in comparison with Dry). On aggregate, you would gain 1 beaker and lose 1 gold per day. All for the price of 80 shields? Did you read Dry's post (posted February 08, 2001 13:08 )?

Huh?

Example: the city makes 4 gold and 15 beakers (with 3 scientists). Now I build a library, which makes it 4 gold and 22 beakers. Shifting to 50/50 yields 5 gold and 21 beakers. The net income stays the same, and I have 6 more beakers every turn - and ever more when the city grows, builds trade routes, a university etc.

(BTW, don't laugh too loudly ( ). It doesn't suit you.)

1. I thought I taught you basics of logical thinking a little. Read my posts and think about them more thoroughly. (Notice it is nicer not to open a mouth so much)
I compared utilization of scientist with building of library. I didn't declare that the scientist is the best solution, I declared that it is better than library. It means there exist some better solution than a library: It means library is not a good solution. It is what I wanted to demonstrate.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-15-2001 07:38 PM I didn't declare that the scientist is the best solution, I declared that it is better than library. It means there exist some better solution than a library: It means library is not a good solution. It is what I wanted to demonstrate.

I know that's what you wanted, but what I showed you is that to combine the two is even better. Note that (not counting tricks) you cannot even have scientists until your city is at least size 5. To make no more than 7 arrows at that point is rather poor. In addition, it's better to grow to size 8 first, when you can employ 3 scientists.

quote: Originally posted by Dry on 02-08-2001 01:08 PM Now, starting with 7 arrows, the problem becomes interresting: A: 2g.-5b. B: 3g.-4b. In case A, I will not build a MP nor a lib. In case B, I could build a lib.., for a net 2g.-6b., better than case B. and it is even more interresting with 8, 9, ... arrows Now the question is how much does it cost me to build that lib? A city producing 7 arrows in monarchy is - in my games - typically size 5, thus producing 5 shields. A lib is produced in only 16 turns, usually less because I pay... It could be worth it, isn't it? BTW, how big is your city producing 12 arrows? How do you maintain order - without MP - in such a city? Surely not with HG only, and if you say with MC, then you have MC reaaaaaally early. Caravans? Then you have spend much time in producing them and moving them - more than 20 turns for sure.

Try it once: refrain from building any early library, build a few caravans instead (preferably high priced commodities, column #2, demanded by a fat foreign city), then have a look at your treasury when you deliver them (don't forget that if you get 100 gold instant bonus on delivery, you also get 100 beakers in the research box at the same time, + the continued trade route afterwards).

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-22-2001 08:21 AM Hence your investment of 160 gold provides a net benefit of 1 gold/turn: this is a very low return (that is exactly why I advise to avoid building a library so early).

I think I need to improve my English .
What I wanted to say was not that I *do* build a library with 7 arrows, but it is the very starting point at which it is interesting to ask the question.
Of course, all the fun with this games is the question of ROI.
At 7, it is not worth it, nor at 8 or even 9.
I had the feeling that 12 was a little but too much, so I made a small calculation. Today, my feeling is that 10 seems a good number.
And the 4-6-0 strategy is also not the best with only 2 or 3 such cities. I usually play 3-7-0, but I keep asking me the question...

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 02-22-2001 08:21 AM 2) You can get 12 arrows in a very tiny city: for example with 3 trade routes providing 4 arrows each. Try it once: refrain from building any early library, build a few caravans instead (preferably high priced commodities, column #2, demanded by a fat foreign city), then have a look at your treasury when you deliver them (don't forget that if you get 100 gold instant bonus on delivery, you also get 100 beakers in the research box at the same time, + the continued trade route afterwards).

Ah, here I honestly have a real question.
I tried to send caravans as soon as possible.
In my last game, the 1st caravan (dye? hides? I don't remember) was sent BC in direction of the west, where the carthaginians came from. It took ages before it found a city demanding dye. There was one, but they changed their needs before I arrived. When I found one, I received something like 36 gold and 1 arrow/round .
And this was the best result until 900AD, when one reached the 'fat' Aztec capital. I received 139 gold and 3 arrows/turn. At that time, my city was 8 in size with MP, Lib, Temple, celabrating WLTKD.
Yes, I have noticed that overseas caravans pays (alot) more than land caravans, but the problem is to get there in reasonable time.

How do you do to get to those fat cities demanding column 2 commodities?!?!

Very interesting strategy. I usually avoid trading with my own cities, preferring to get that foreign bonus. However a SSC is certainly a prime target for caravans and is almost guaranteed to have more trade arrows than any foreign city. If it has twice as many arrows then it's superior to sending caravans to foreign cities! You also have the added bonus of probably having a road to your destination, probably having a shorter traveling distance, and having little chance of your caravan being killed en route. I'll have to try this.

How do you do to get to those fat cities demanding column 2 commodities?!?!