Starting off as a Republic helps, and with so many units for disbanding and so much gold, I was able to rushbuy all the time. First thing built were 3 caravans in 3 turns to get trade routes going. Then a quick granary and temple before reaching size 2. Then a library and university and two food caravans before buying Shakespeare’s Theater as I reached size 3. WLTCD all the way to size 23 at about 1500 B.C., learning democracy on the way. In the meantime, I’m still unhutting more units, technology and gold because it is a 10,000 hex map. By 1500 AD, I have Copernicus, Sir Isaac’s and Colossus, and have discoveries down to every 2 turns. To keep my beaker requirement low, I always gave everything I learned to the AI every 10 turns or so, knowing that I could build anything faster than they could. Doing this helped the most, especially right after founding my city. I also got a lot of 1 turn advances by delivering demanded commodities, and just after building superhighways, science just barely by itself gave me a few 1 turn advances (beakers were in the 1600-1700 range). Even the AI helped me learn a few techs, because I always kept them up to date and trying to learn things I didn’t know. However this was not as helpful as I had hoped because they are such slow learners.

A few more comments about the map might be in order. It consists mainly of one large continent, and the settlers start at 60,52 just about at its center. All huts (except one I missed with the river brush) are connected by rivers, so following any river eventually leads to one or more huts and units move fast on rivers. My city with 2 spice and 2 gold was located east of the settlers at 72,56. There are many others within short range. I will list just a few:

74,60 2 gold, 2 wine
71,73 2 gold, 2 wheat
67,75 1 gold, 2 wheat, 1 buffalo
55,73 1 gold, 1 fish, 1 whale, 1 wheat
51,75 2 gold, 1 whale, 1 wheat
58,60 2 gold, 1 whale, 1 silk
56,56 2 gold, 1 whale, 1 wine
59,43 1 gold, 1 fish, 1 coal, 1 wine
63,41 2 gold, 1 coal, 1 wine
75,43 2 gold, 1 spice, 1 wine
79,41 1 gold, 1 fish, 1 spice, 1 wine
88,56 2 gold, 2 whales

I missed a few hexes with my river brush due to fatigue, but noted them down while playing. They are:

80,74
115,95
66,42
101,93
113,21
23,23

There may be a few more.

There is also a small island on the map, covered with rocks, but it should not come into play, except for the barbarians, who seemed fond of it. I named it Alcatraz. A very narrow “ocean” runs north-south, surrounding it, but does not come into play either. There are also a few small lakes scattered around the map, but ships are not needed at all. If there is a way of adding extra huts to a map with the map editor, I don’t know of it. With such a large continent, though, there were plenty of them just the way things were. I was shameless with the rivers though, trying to squeeze every last advantage out of their use.

In the game that I discovered space flight prior to 1 A.D., three lucky things happened, that really helped me a lot:

1) The first hut I tipped gave horseback riding, and the next two gave horsemen. I was off to a headstart finding and tipping huts. This seemed a big advantage due to luck.

2) I unhutted a lot of tech before invention popped up. More than anything, this gave me a tremendous early push because I did not have to wait while researching vital techs. Reaching full city size so early, with vital wonders and improvements was mostly due to this. This was a huge advantage. I think I got over 30 techs before invention and attribute space flight prior to 1 A.D. mainly due to this lucky occurrence. The time invention appears is purely due to luck I believe, and in my opinion this ruins this kind of game for comparison play.

3) I happened to learn democracy on one of Oedo’s “o” years so that the WLTCD shifted to WLTPD in a seamless way, saving a turn or two.

All this luck might have led to a one-time, fluky result, although I would like to think I was alert enough to take full advantage of my good fortune.

From my games so far, I noticed two more things potential players might like to know:

1) If you unhut philosophy before founding your city, you will not get the free advance right away (you are bound to be first to philosophy!) You get it for the first thing you decide to study when you eventually found your city. Choose carefully, because the next thing to learn will take a long time.

2) The above happened to me, and I chose astronomy. Good thing! I also got theory of gravity from a hut later, before invention popped up! For my next subject to study, I picked invention, since it was the only prerequisite I needed for democracy, the next advance I wanted the most. My reasoning was that I was sure to get invention from a hut before learning it, and I wanted to study democracy next, and things happened this way. I kind of doubt it, but it may be possible that invention from a hut can be delayed somewhat by studying it! Given the tendency of the game NOT to give you things from huts you want to learn ASAP like monarchy, this is a possibility. Maybe I fooled the game for once, making it think I wanted invention as badly as I do in non-OCC games!

Thanks for sending the save game. This opens up a whole new element to the strategy of earliest AC victory. This 1 AD bug sucks! Otherwise, it would be interesting to see who could get the earliest AC victory if we each person could use any map he/she created. And not just for OCC purposes - any number of cities could be built. In which case, how many cities would be optimal? Probably not many, considering the time needed to expand. Would it turn out (for reasons of unhappiness) that one city was actually optimal? Food for thought...

BTW, you don't need the prereq advance to get certain units from huts. For example, you can get horsemen without horseback riding, archer w/out warrior code, etc.

2) A possible way around the 1 A.D. bug would be to require mastery of the whole tech tree before starting on a spaceship.

3) An alternative challenge might be to see who can get the highest point score by 1 A.D. using a custom map. With an earlier version of my river map (get ready, this one had a river on every hex!), it is possible, but tedious work, to beat the deity “record” posted in the 1000 A.D. Hall of Fame.

Chainsaw -

Two comments. I don't find the 100 units at all surprising. I went through a period when I explored for ever on big maps before founding and my experience was that a time comes (quite quickly) when what you get a long succession of units. Barbs we know are not allowed, I only got an advanced tribe once and never got wandering nomads (I now subscribe to the one per landmass theory). So units and advances are the other options. Units seemed to come up much more often.

Was that your experience, solo?

Anyway, second point is that while I didn't go on to try an OCC (never having heard of such a thing at the time) I did soon give up the tactic - because it is just too powerful and wrecks the game.

God is it slow too. Moving all those units gets boring quite quickly.

1) I concur wholeheartedly with what you said, except that credit for the idea of a river map should go to Roger Hofmann, from whom I borrowed the idea. He used one to score 17,825 points in his record game at the Civfanatics web site. (They don’t know about the food caravan trick over there, yet.) Anyone who dedicated a full year and a half shuffling units around a river map, and survived the experience able to document how he did it, deserves full credit.

2) As for hut output, my results in MGE so far suggest:

a) Before your city is founded, only units, gold or tech will come from huts, so I never bother saving a game before popping those huts. (However, in ToT this is not true, because I remember barbarians once, and maybe even an advanced tribe, so in 2.4.2 results may differ, too.) The distribution seems to be 2/3 units, 1/3 tech, and 1/3 gold in MGE before your city is built.

b) After your city is founded, a map like mine has never given wanderers, and the distribution seems to switch to 2/3 gold, 1/3 units and 1/3 barbarians, though with so much time off earlier in the game, the well-rested barbarians seem to be all you get for a turn or two after building Rome!

Because of this, I try to leave a good supply of huts on the board that are nearer to AI cities, because, yes, 100+ units are quite enough to move around, thank you. However, the extra influx of gold is never an irritation.

As for hut patterns, one is readily apparent to anyone who has ever used the map editor, but I am too lazy to want to keep track of it, so I just connected them with rivers. When I play, I just follow my “hut highways” wherever they lead me.

3) I think my experience with river maps gave me an edge in OCC #22! When I saw those spies and transports and the size of the map, I started to salivate, because I knew just how to exploit all those easily accessible huts. The normal OCC procedure of starting with the Colossus wonder wasn’t best for that situation.

4) The regular OCC format is the most enjoyable for me, too. It takes less time to manage one city and requires more skill. In a way it is too bad, that like any computer simulation, CivII is susceptible to exploitations that distort the game, such as the river map. But I guess that is also part of the fun, too, finding and exploiting the weaknesses in the design! But where do you draw the line? I know I still feel guilty when I sell off my sewer system and aqueduct in OCC, even though this is permitted, so I just don’t do it... unless I can really use the gold!

5) Speaking of exploitations, if you get tired of moving your armies on river maps, don’t forget the “withdraw to nearest city” teleport option. In my current game, I had about 10 legions (who else thinks a legion is just a glorified warrior?) clustered next to a size 1 Mongol city, hoping to save wear and tear on my computer keypad, when instead, I was told to leave immediately or the Mongol “mighty armies” would drive me out! Guess I won’t see space flight too early in this one.

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-06-2001 03:09 PM After your city is founded, a map like mine has never given wanderers, and the distribution seems to switch to 2/3 gold, 1/3 units and 1/3 barbarians,

That's how many thirds in total, Solo?
Some valuable knowledge, besides the hut pattern, is the fact that once you have explored a bit around a hut the chance to get Barbarians is much smaller. Also, there is positive autocorrelation in hut outcomes. If you get money from one hut, you're more likely to get money from the next one as well, etc.
You can exploit the above by popping a hut on less suspect terrain before you pop that one on grassland bordering on the dark. I do it all the time and get less barbs than others, or so it seems (OK the secret is out!!). No guarantees though, once in a while the Lady Fortuna is just not on your side, so if I'm not in a hurry I do keep that extra movement point.

Okay, I'm awake, now. I think I meant 2/3, 1/6 and 1/6 for ratios.

I support you on the sequence notion. Under ordinary circumstances, if you tip two or three in the same move or in successive moves then I think that all outcomes except wandering nomads and barbs run in pairs.

I suspect that huts tipped by all civs run in a single sequence.

When the sequence specifies two units, they will be the same unit (so if you are lucky enough to get a four footer from the first hut tipped you may well get another from the second).

When the sequence specifies gold, though, I think the sum is determined by a dice roll, not by a sequence (not sure though - if memory serves, I don't get gold as often as solo. I play 2.42 and in the period when I was exploring forever before founding I don't even think I had the patch).

I hadn't noticed the effect of exploring round the hut on the likelihood of a barb outcome for myself but now you have made that point I begin to think you are right. I'll keep my eye out for that in future games.

Huts and exploring are a fun part of the game to me. Hope there is something of that preserved in Civ3.

solo

Agree with you about the exploitation of quirks. ICS seems to me an abomination but I am glad that it exists and I am admiring of DaveV and others for developing its exposition to such an advanced point.

OCC too is entirely artificial but wonderfully satisfying.

And look at what the scenario developers achieve by exploiting this feature or that!

OCC #23 MGE, deity Space flight: 100 B.C.

3950 Hut: chariot
3900 3 huts: 50g, chariot, horseman
3850 3 huts: 25g, horseman, masonry
3800 3 huts: archer, horseback riding, archer

>My luckiest start yet, but my luck soon changed

3750 3 huts: 75g, archer
3700 3 huts: 50g, pottery
3650 3 huts: warrior code, 2 chariots
3600 6 huts: 50g, horseman, archer, chariot, wheel
3550 2 huts: archer, horseman
3500 4 huts: 50g, writing, archer, bronze working
Americans: trade for alphabet, peace, give all my tech
3450 2 huts: 25g, iron working

>Now the first unlucky thing happens. The “1” key on my keypad got stuck, and all units took a sudden dive to the southwest before I realized what had happened. I could only sit and watch in horror as about half were washed ashore off their rivers.

3400 4 huts: 100g, horseman, ceremonial burial
3350 7 huts: 75g, 3 horsemen, 2 legion
3300 6 huts: 4 legions, chariot, code of laws

>That key isn’t stuck now

3250 11 huts: 2 legions, 2 horsemen, chariot, currency, literacy, mathematics, construction, bridge building, map making
Aztecs: alliance, give tech
3200 8 huts: 2 chariots, 4 horsemen, legion, monarchy, revolution
Zulus: peace, share maps, give tech
3150 14 huts: 125g, 3 legions, 4 horsemen, 2 chariots, republic, mysticism
3100 20 huts: 100g, 3 horsemen, 7 legions, 3 chariots, 2 elephants, philosophy, polytheism, astronomy

>Good, philosophy and astronomy are vital

3050 government to Republic, 13 huts: 175g, 2 legions, 2 horsemen, chariot, seafaring, engineering, trade, invention

>Bad, I’m missing banking, university, theory of gravity, medicine and sanitation. It really helps to have these to jump start your city, because the first few techs by research come very slowly. At least I have trade and republic. Philosophy will only give me one more freebie, but I don’t like my chances.

Rome founded

>I chose the same site as my last game, 2 spice and 2 gold. I think this is the best combination available. Besides the 4 trade, the extra food from spice gets you to size 3 quickly, and leads to an extra Einsteins later. I hate to lose one of my irrigators, though.

3000 hides, 6 huts: 100g, elephant, barbarian
Vikings: peace, share maps, give tech
2950 hides, medicine, 22 huts: 500g, 10 barbarians, legion

>For my freebie, medicine is a no-brainer since I have to grow fast, but next I am only offered university and banking from my list of vital techs, above. I thought long and hard, and decided on banking, as this helps keep science at 80% during WLTCD, and is a prerequisite for democracy, which I needed to grow over size 21. I’m hoping Copernicus and caravans are enough for early science.

2900 spice, 13 huts: 2 legions, 375g, 3 barbarians
Mongols: peace, share maps, give tech
2850 granary, 11 huts: 225g, 4 barbarians, 2 legions, elephant
2800 library, 15 huts: 600g, horseman, legion, barbarian

>Only 1 barbarian? This guy must be cheating.

2750 temple, 15 huts: 325g, 3 legions, 3 barbarians

>I told my first citizen to work extra hard and he did.

2700 food, 7 huts: 2 legions, 250g
Carthaginians: peace, share maps, give tech
2650 food, 6 huts: 75g, elephant, barbarian, 2 legions
2600 Copernicus’ Observatory, 4 huts: 75g, legion, horseman

>Now beakers are at about 50, but I wish I had a university now, too. No use hoarding gold, I save one food for next turn.

2550 Shakespeare’s Theater, WLTCD starts at 3, 11 huts: 225g, 2 elephants, barbarian, 2 horsemen, chariot
2500 marketplace, 7 huts: 200g, 2 barbarians

>Marketplace is vital to keep science at 80%, now it’s as many caravans as possible to get those 1 turn advances

2450 hides, 8 huts: 4 barbarians, 50g, chariot, horseman
2400 hides, 3 huts: legion, 50g, elephant
Americans: share maps, give tech, Aztecs: ditto
2350 Colossus, 6 huts: 2 legions, 100g, 2 barbarians

>Just able to pay, after disbanding a few units. Now my beakers are up to around 100.

2300 hides, 4 huts: 150g
2250 aqueduct, 4 huts: 125g, legion
2200 hides, banking, hides(d) to Washington, 268g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 222g, 3 huts: legion, 75g

>I hate to use 2 caravans for 1 tech, but I need sanitation real quick

2150 bank, 2 huts: 50g, chariot
2100 gold, sanitation, spice(d) to Teotihuacan, 408g, 3 huts: legion, 75g

>That was convenient, I just reached size 12! Decent payoff for spice, too. I had to wait rest of the game to cash in that gold caravan, though.

2050 sewer system, 7 huts: 3 legions, 100g, barbarian
2000 gems, democracy, 2 huts: 75g

>That wasn’t convenient, I just missed the “o” year. Now I miss a turn of research to anarchy.

1950 food, 2 huts: 2 barbarians
1900 settler, 4 huts: 125g, barbarian, legion, revolution

>This was my smartest move in the game, because one settler is just not cutting it. I need to fully irrigate as quickly as possible, and continue by starting my roads. Needed beakers and those on hand were enough out of whack, I could afford to lose the citizen, without slowing research on my next advance.

1850 food, government to Democracy

>Sad to see commodities stop, but happy to be a democracy

1800 food, WLTPD starts at 15, 2 huts: 50g, elephant
1750 food, university, 3 huts: 25g, legion, barbarian
1700 university
1650 food, Vikings: give tech
1600 food, theory of gravity, give tech to everyone, 100g gift from Aztecs, hides(d) to Trondheim, 310g
1550 Sir Isaac Newton’s College, WLTPD stops at 19, chemistry, hides(d) to Karakorum, 400g

>Now it was 1500, vital wonders and improvements are ready, and research is down to 2 turns/advance, but due to the early appearance of invention, I still had about 30 things to learn, and only 50 turns to work with, if I wanted space flight before 1 A.D. What to do? I put all my trust in caravans and superhighways, but I was so far behind my previous game that I had serious doubts. “The other players here are the best I know”, I thought, “Maybe one or two will manage space flight before 1 A.D. and save me the task of proving it can be done.”

1500 silver, WLTPD starts at 19, economics
1450 food
1400 food, gunpowder, hides(d) to Utica, 434g
1350 Leonardo’s Workshop, explosives, hides(d) to Boston, 386g
1300 stock exchange, WLTPD stops at 22, navigation

>I had to keep interrupting WLTPD to get those vital one turn commodity advances. 80% science was not quite enough.

1250 food, WLTPD starts at 22
1200 food, physics
1150 food, hut: 50g
1100 food, metallurgy
1050 food, hut: musketeer
1000 food, steam engine, hut:elephant

>Only 40 turns left now, and about 24 techs left. I’m still behind the eight ball, here. I am now at 28, maximum size, and with engineers, the roads will all be built just in time for superhighways. There simply isn’t enough time to bother with farmland. Good! One less tech I have to learn!

975 food, WLTPD stops at 28, All AI: give away all tech, share maps, 100g gift from Aztecs
950 food, railroad, gems(d) to Karakorum, 446g, 2 huts:100g
925 food, magnetism
900 food
875 food, industrialization, hut: 25g
850 food, hut: barbarian
825 food, corporation
800 food
775 food, electricity

>Forgot to build a food here for 750, it’s getting late

725 food, refining, silver(d) to Teotihuacan, 570g
700 food, steel
675 food, Aztecs: give tech, share maps, 125g gift, Americans: trade for conscription, give tech, share maps
All others: give tech, share maps

>Picking up conscription from the Americans was lucky. I give away all tech just before learning combustion to keep a buffer between AI research and flight. Those buggers can sure learn fast when you don’t want them to.

650 food, combustion
625 food
600 food, automobile

>At last! All my hopes now are pinned on superhighways and getting 1 turn advances from science alone.

575 superhighways, mass production

>Beakers needed are 1431, I can do that with 90% science and 1 Einstein

550 mass transit, electronics
525 food, feudalism
500 food, chivalry
475 food, leadership
450 food, atomic theory, give tech to AI

>100% science and it took my final Einstein. It was time to give away tech to the AI again!

425 food, tactics
400 food, nuclear fission
375 food, machine tools, gold(d) to Tlateloclo, 1098

>My spell checker doesn’t like Aztec city names. The great run of 8 one-turn advances from superhighways was more than I expected. Beakers needed are now 1674, just a few more than I have on hand.

350 gold, nuclear power
325 food
300 food, miniaturization
275 food
250 diplomat, computers

>Now that my problems with research are over, disbanding units has left a hole for a major barbarian invasion with stronger units than I have on hand. Leonardo‘s had to be cancelled before the upgrades, so I’m not taking any chances. I have plenty of money to bribe them with.

225 research lab, flight
200 food
175 food, radio
150 Darwin’s Voyage, advanced flight, laser
125 food, rocketry, gold(d) to Tlateloclo, 834g
100 food, space flight
75 Apollo Program

>The rest is routine, so I quit here. I did better in my previous game, where I was so lucky. This effort required a lot of thought. Now if we can fix the parts problem, and if Paul will start me off with a few spies and engineers just where I want them, I think a landing before 1 A.D. is doable with this map.

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-06-2001 03:09 PM a map like mine has never given wanderers

Interesting map!

You can have nomads so long as you "b" your second settler into Rome and look around the icecaps. I found one near the S. Pole.

-------------

SG(2)