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Topic: xxxo xxxo xxxo ... |  |
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oedo
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 13:06
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starting with 4000BC this pattern indicates the turns which allow you to choose a new goverment when you´re in anarchy. after a couple of tests with different savegames I found out they´re always the same:3850
3650
3450
3250
... edit: the most surprising thing about it, this pattern is really simple. nevertheless it obviously hasn´t been detected before 
[This message has been edited by oedo (edited August 20, 2000).] |
Smash
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 13:33
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Good thinking!I have to test it out myself but you may have eliminated the 3 turn revolution. |
Paul
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 14:41
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I have been looking through some of the OCC tables and they seem to confirm your results. There are some anomalies, but they can most likely be attributed to typos in the logs or the tables. |
SCG
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 15:28
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wow, never thought to look for a pattern before. I'd focused mainly on having my capitol be the city producing the science needed for the govt. tech. It does still pose an interesting question for OCCers. Do you maximize taxes for up to 3 turns before the govt tech if you just missed the last window or do you go ahead and keep researching and then waste an entire round of trade in anarchy?If you wait to discover the govt tech, you gain potentially significant gold, but lose some science, although no actual trade is lost. If you go ahead and discover the government, you lose 1 full round of trade in anarchy, but do have a little more science, potentially even another tech. For 3 rounds the choice would seem to keep researching, especially going from Republic to Democracy. For 1 round the choice would seem obvious to hold off the science, since you would lose 1 round of science anyway, but can gain 1 free round of taxes. For 2 rounds, the situation may or may not dictate an obvious answer, so is open for debate ------------------
April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince *goes off and starts gifting gold and techs* |
Caesar
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 19:43
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Great job, I would have never thought of that. I guess it does make sense, I had wondered previously why sometimes it would take no turns and other times it would seem to take forever. Kinda makes SoL a little less useful (only a little though)I have so much testing to do and so much time to do it in  ------------------
"You spam more about mao's post count than mao spams himself!" - A certain unnamed apolytoner "And paul, hes a hopeless dork"... thanks a lot speer "...Crazy paul..." - Pretty much everyone Warning: this topic may unduly excite any hetrosexual virgin child men who read this |
Smash
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 19:47
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I think research can stay the same but you may want to wait a turn or 2 for a revolution. |
rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 19:51
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Time to test. I assume you did. This is a big find. I would have expected it from Xin Yu.
Great Job. I can't believe no one has ever noticed this before. Unbelievably simple.RAH |
rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 20:02
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God, it worked. I know I expected it to, but it's still a surprise. Exxxcccceeeelent.
This will play into the stratagy.
It's so simple.RAH
Great Job Sherlock. |
Smash
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 20:15
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Xin is only good for complicated stuff like how 20 engineers can change 1 square 3 times a turn  This is so simple its embarrassing I haven't noticed this pattern before.Prelim tests seem to confirm every 4th turn is the one. Way ta go oedo! |
Ming
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 20:30
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Simply Amazing... Unbelievable!Who would have thought... great job oedo.
Key knowledge to have. And who says we have nothing new to find out about civ! |
Spider
b.02-15-99
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posted August 20, 2000 20:46
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That is truly remarkable Oedo; it's cool to know that new things are still being found! Kinda makes you want to run around naked, yelling, "Eureka!" ...Or maybe not. |
Sten Sture
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 00:23
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Way to go Sonder-Oedo!Sometimes the most elegant explanation is the simplest.
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Scouse Gits
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 06:12
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Absolutely brill - a great catch oedo
  ------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1] "CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor |
SCG
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Smash on 08-20-2000 07:47 PM
I think research can stay the same but you may want to wait a turn or 2 for a revolution.
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It goes without saying now that you'd want to wait for the revolution. The question I posed was what to do in that 2 turn wait, or more specifically those 2 turns plus the turn that you would normally discover the tech. In the case of a well developed republic, or several worshipful alliances, keeping up the science rate may make sence. On the other hand, if the discovery is monarchy and you haven't made contact with anyone yet, you may want to delay science so that you discover it on the revolution turn. I see it as situationally dependant ------------------
April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince *goes off and starts gifting gold and techs* |
kcbob
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 08:24
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Most people are assuming a 3 turn wait. Does the xxx0 sill apply later in the game when turns are at 2 or 1 year intervals? If so, and I would assume that to be true, then you have more time to apply whatever stategies turn out to be appropriate.But what an incredible find, oedo!!! Kind of like Apartame. BTW, how DO you pronounce your name? ------------------
Frodo lives! Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.
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oedo
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 12:32
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I found no savegames from 1750AD or later, so I couldn´t verify if the pattern still works then. but I´d say with 99% it does.meanwhile also I tested in chieftain and now I can say xxxo works at any level (and as I suppose at any time) noe I have a little request: if you read this, please don´t tell anyone at the zone about it ----------
just oedo it |
Smash
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 12:59
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SCG-Ok I get it now.Yep.Now we can have instant revolutions at will.It works in later years also.Have to do a little figuring.I've allready written a list of revolt dates. oedo-there are many players that would have kept this a secret.There may be some that did know this although I doubt it. |
rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 13:38
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Smash, I was going to work on a list too. Why don't you save us all a lot of effort and post yours here.
I'm sure it would be much appreciated.RAH
Odeo, thanks for making the title a little cryptic, I'm betting some people will just ignore this tread. And that was a fun game Saturday. My favorite was "Where the F*CK is Burrows?"
[This message has been edited by rah (edited August 21, 2000).] |
DaveV
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 13:50
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oedo - I second Smash's thanks for sharing this insight. This will certainly help me in my games. |
Paul
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:00
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I already had a list of years with turn numbers for the OCC comparison tables. As I already posted in the OCC #15 thread I just marked the years in which governments will be established with asterisks. http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/turns.htm |
Xin Yu
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:02
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Great findings! We have been misled for so many years! Who's the first who told us that it was random? |
Tom DeMille
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:02
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Thanks, Paul, I was about to post a link to that page too. |
SCG
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:04
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*wonders if Paul is amused yet*http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/turns.htm
Edit: wow, that was quick
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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince *goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited August 21, 2000).] |
rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:18
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I reformated it to one page for convenience. Let's see how it cut's and pastes here.0 -4000 60 -1000 120 400 180 1550 240 1830 300 1900
1 -3950 61 -975 121 420 181 1560 241 1832 301 1901
2 -3900 62 -950 122 440 182 1570 242 1834 302 1902
3 -3850 * 63 -925 * 123 460 * 183 1580 * 243 1836 * 303 1903 *
4 -3800 64 -900 124 480 184 1590 244 1838 304 1904
5 -3750 65 -875 125 500 185 1600 245 1840 305 1905
6 -3700 66 -850 126 520 186 1610 246 1842 306 1906
7 -3650 * 67 -825 * 127 540 * 187 1620 * 247 1844 * 307 1907 *
8 -3600 68 -800 128 560 188 1630 248 1846 308 1908
9 -3550 69 -775 129 580 189 1640 249 1848 309 1909
10 -3500 70 -750 130 600 190 1650 250 1850 310 1910
11 -3450 * 71 -725 * 131 620 * 191 1660 * 251 1851 * 311 1911 *
12 -3400 72 -700 132 640 192 1670 252 1852 312 1912
13 -3350 73 -675 133 660 193 1680 253 1853 313 1913
14 -3300 74 -650 134 680 194 1690 254 1854 314 1914
15 -3250 * 75 -625 * 135 700 * 195 1700 * 255 1855 * 315 1915 *
16 -3200 76 -600 136 720 196 1710 256 1856 316 1916
17 -3150 77 -575 137 740 197 1720 257 1857 317 1917
18 -3100 78 -550 138 760 198 1730 258 1858 318 1918
19 -3050 * 79 -525 * 139 780 * 199 1740 * 259 1859 * 319 1919 *
20 -3000 80 -500 140 800 200 1750 260 1860 320 1920
21 -2950 81 -475 141 820 201 1752 261 1861 321 1921
22 -2900 82 -450 142 840 202 1754 262 1862 322 1922
23 -2850 * 83 -425 * 143 860 * 203 1756 * 263 1863 * 323 1923 *
24 -2800 84 -400 144 880 204 1758 264 1864 324 1924
25 -2750 85 -375 145 900 205 1760 265 1865 325 1925
26 -2700 86 -350 146 920 206 1762 266 1866 326 1926
27 -2650 * 87 -325 * 147 940 * 207 1764 * 267 1867 * 327 1927 *
28 -2600 88 -300 148 960 208 1766 268 1868 328 1928
29 -2550 89 -275 149 980 209 1768 269 1869 329 1929
30 -2500 90 -250 150 1000 210 1770 270 1870 330 1930
31 -2450 * 91 -225 * 151 1020 *211 1772 * 271 1871 *
32 -2400 92 -200 152 1040 212 1774 272 1872
33 -2350 93 -175 153 1060 213 1776 273 1873
34 -2300 94 -150 154 1080 214 1778 274 1874
35 -2250 * 95 -125 * 155 1100 *215 1780 * 275 1875 *
36 -2200 96 -100 156 1120 216 1782 276 1876
37 -2150 97 -75 157 1140 217 1784 277 1877
38 -2100 98 -50 158 1160 218 1786 278 1878
39 -2050 * 99 -25 * 159 1180 *219 1788 * 279 1879 *
40 -2000 100 0 160 1200 220 1790 280 1880
41 -1950 101 20 161 1220 221 1792 281 1881
42 -1900 102 40 162 1240 222 1794 282 1882
43 -1850 * 103 60 * 163 1260 *223 1796 * 283 1883 *
44 -1800 104 80 164 1280 224 1798 284 1884
45 -1750 105 100 165 1300 225 1800 285 1885
46 -1700 106 120 166 1320 226 1802 286 1886
47 -1650 * 107 140 * 167 1340 *227 1804 * 287 1887 *
48 -1600 108 160 168 1360 228 1806 288 1888
49 -1550 109 180 169 1380 229 1808 289 1889
50 -1500 110 200 170 1400 230 1810 290 1890
51 -1450 * 111 220 * 171 1420 *231 1812 * 291 1891 *
52 -1400 112 240 172 1440 232 1814 292 1892
53 -1350 113 260 173 1460 233 1816 293 1893
54 -1300 114 280 174 1480 234 1818 294 1894
55 -1250 * 115 300 * 175 1500 *235 1820 * 295 1895 *
56 -1200 116 320 176 1510 236 1822 296 1896
57 -1150 117 340 177 1520 237 1824 297 1897
58 -1100 118 360 178 1530 238 1826 298 1898
59 -1050 * 119 380 * 179 1540 *239 1828 * 299 1899 *
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rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:25
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That looked like Crap. Let's try again with just the years that it works......Deity Years When it works. -3850 * -925 * 460_ * 1580 * 1836 * 1903 *
-3650 * -825 * 540_ * 1620 * 1844 * 1907 *
-3450 * -725 * 620_ * 1660 * 1851 * 1911 *
-3250 * -625 * 700_ * 1700 * 1855 * 1915 *
-3050 * -525 * 780_ * 1740 * 1859 * 1919 *
-2850 * -425 * 860_ * 1756 * 1863 * 1923 *
-2650 * -325 * 940_ * 1764 * 1867 * 1927 *
-2450 * -225 * 1020 * 1772 * 1871 *
-2250 * -125 * 1100 * 1780 * 1875 *
-2050 * -25_ * 1180 * 1788 * 1879 *
-1850 * 60__ * 1260 * 1796 * 1883 *
-1650 * 140_ * 1340 * 1804 * 1887 *
-1450 * 220_ * 1420 * 1812 * 1891 *
-1250 * 300_ * 1500 * 1820 * 1895 *
-1050 * 380_ * 1540 * 1828 * 1899 * can be reduced for a pocket reference RAH
[This message has been edited by rah (edited August 21, 2000).] |
Sten Sture
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:36
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Edit - dupe!Another quick edit to remove years that don't allow an immediate change... -3850___-925___460__1580__1836__1903
-3650___-825___540__1620__1844__1907
-3450___-725___620__1660__1851__1911
-3250___-625___700__1700__1855__1915
-3050___-525___780__1740__1859__1919
-2850___-425___860__1756__1863__1923
-2650___-325___940__1764__1867__1927
-2450___-225__1020__1772__1871__'31
-2250___-125__1100__1780__1875__'35
-2050____-25__1180__1788__1879__'39
-1850_____60__1260__1796__1883__'43
-1650____140__1340__1804__1887__'47
-1450____220__1420__1812__1891__'51
-1250____300__1500__1820__1895__'55
-1050____380__1540__1828__1899__'59...
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited August 21, 2000).] |
rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 14:44
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Sorry Sten, we were both trying to fix my cruddy work at the same time.Now where is my laminator? RAH |
Smash
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 2000 17:58
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Oh darn!..too late.My "list" was done with the program called pencil and paper Sten's will do very nicely.Sorry Rah.But if you think your's was mess..well you didn't see mine.
Too bad we don't have "Apolytoner of Season" right now.
Heres an old one that seems kinda funny now. ../../forums/Archives/Archive-000005/HTML/20000426-3-000584.html NOTICE Ming's first reply
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited August 21, 2000).] |
Carolus Rex
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 08:06
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Heh, heh, heh!Oedo, This year's Apolyton Noble Prize for path breaking research in Civology has your name carved in it! No money, but lots of honour. Carolus |
rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 08:33
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Great link to the archives. For once I was glad to see that I didn't post to that one.
It was very humorous.The most interesting point though was all the people that tested (and claimed to prove the) randomness by reloading and trying again. Now I refuse to believe that all those people were lying about testing it. Is there any chance that one of the patches changed it? I doubt it, but it does seem strange. The next time Ming rags me when he's certain about something, I'll point him to that archive. RAH |
inca911
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 08:55
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I see all those xxxo xxxo xxxo and I'm thinking "hugs and kisses"?!? Nice find! As a newbie OCCer, can you walk me through the instant revolution process? Are you saying that you can have a revolution to a new government form and have 0 turns of disorder on those years marked in the table? If so, is there any significance to when the government allowing technology is discovered, or do you simply discover the tech whenever and wait to revolt at those specific years? Thanks, oedo, for the find and for putting in the work to do the testing! |
SCG
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 10:02
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heh, that was my first thought too, inca911. As for how it works, say you are due to discover monarchy in the year 3100BC. If you look at the chart, 3050BC is a target year. that means if you discover monarchy in 3150 and revolt, you will have 1 full turn of anarchy. If however, you drop science slightly so that you discover it in 3050, you can discover it and form the government in the same year. You also could discover it in 3150 and revolt in 3100, and only get the 1 turn of anarchy, and that might be a better choice if you just missed a target date with democracy (say found it in 950AD). You could either lower science to discover it in 980AD revolt and form in 980, or go ahead and discover demo in 950, but wait till 970 to revolt, either way, you'll form a demo in 980, even if you revolt in 950. |
rah
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 11:07
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I can't see delaying the development of a science, since you could be storing beakers for the next tech.
Only one possible exception.
If you can plan it so that your capital is the city that supplies the last beakers necessary for discovery on the right turn, no city will produce as in anarchy, since your capital (moves last unless you've changed capitals)will produced under the former type of government (as will all the cities that moved prior) and you go straight into the new government. There may be a few situations where this would be better than discovering on the previous turn. More likely it will make you try to maximize science (and screw production/food) in order not to miss one of the cut off dates. RAH
I hope this makes sense. I know what I'm trying to say but when I read it back, I hope i've explained it properly. |
SCG
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 12:33
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makes sense to me anyway I can think of one situation where you would want to delay 1 round in all cases. That would be with exactly 1 city and you are a round early discovering the govt. tech. if you discover a round early, you will have to go into anarchy for a round, losing both science and taxes. If you wait an extra round to discover the government, you essentially gain a free round of taxes since you don't have to go into anarchy at all. For more than 1 round, or for more than 1 city, it becomes more of a tradeoff or a guessing game. And yes, if your capitol/final city is the city to discover the tech, it will be equivalent to the situation with only 1 city. ------------------
April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince *goes off and starts gifting gold and techs* |
kcbob
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 12:43
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quote:
<font size=1>Originally posted by rah on 08-22-2000 11:07 AM</font>
I can't see delaying the development of a science, since you could be storing beakers for the next tech.
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I thought the discovery of a technology wiped the beaker counter clean. Are you referring to a discovery in the middle of a turn, i.e., lots of cities, a few build improvements, etc., you discover the next technology, and then the rest of your cities finish their turn? I think that might be what you're talking about. I guess I've never peeked at the beaker count after that chain of events. ------------------
Frodo lives! Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.
[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited August 22, 2000).] |
SCG
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 13:04
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Yes, kcbob, that is a situation where multiple cities plays a factor. You would have to weigh the number of beakers that would be produced the rest of the turn vs the other benefits. Such as can you discover a second tech before the end of the turn or not? Will you produce more beakers under the new government than in the potential time of anarchy? If you are switching out of a representative government, you may not and want those extra beakers while you still can get them. In other cases, maybe not. And if you are strapped for cash, maybe delaying the science would be best here, since you do have the potential for additional cash revenue without wasting significant science, since all trade is lost in anarchy and the longer you delay anarchy in a round the less total trade is wasted. |
jpk
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 13:43
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Change the Statue of Liberty to the Statue of OEDO! |
Alinestra Covelia
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 14:00
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Hang on, hang on...So what does this mean? Does this mean that once I've discovered a tech leading to a new government form, I can revolt at these dates (eg 3100 BC, 3050 BC) for an anarchy-free transition? Or do I have to doctor it so that I discover the tech these turns as well? If so, why? [Confused Allie] |
Shadowstrike
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 14:00
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In that case, we could just make a Apolyton mod pack with civilizations like the all-powerful Mings, led by Ming (who else) and wit their capital at Mingapulco.... OK, maybe I am getting carried away... |
Tom DeMille
b.02-15-99
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posted August 22, 2000 14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia on 08-22-2000 02:00 PM
Hang on, hang on...So what does this mean? Does this mean that once I've discovered a tech leading to a new government form, I can revolt at these dates (eg 3100 BC, 3050 BC) for an anarchy-free transition? Or do I have to doctor it so that I discover the tech these turns as well? If so, why? [Confused Allie]
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To get a revolt free transition, you have to discover the government tech (and revolt immediately) on one of those turns. Otherwise, you will have to wait at least a turn. |
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