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Topic: Naval Warfare. |  |
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Makeo
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 06:44
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All my comments relate to MP since i've never actually experienced naval warfare against the ai.
I was wondering what other people thought about the comparison between Sun Tzu's and Magellans with respect to Naval warfare.
ie if one human civ had Sun Tzu's and the other had Magellans, which would be expected to win a naval war.
I think most people would initially say the civ with Magellans however although Magellans adds to the movement of your ships it doesn't effect the veteran status.
Sun Tzu's does not give you an automatic veteran ship when you build it but it does make any ship that wins in combat a vet. Granted that might have happened anyway but with Sun Tzu's it happens every time.
So my view is that with Sun Tzu's you can build up a veteran navy that could defeat the opponents navy even though they have the advantage of extra movement. thoughts?
I know i had other things to discuss about Naval warfare but i can't remember. I haven't really thought about it a lot since i haven't been involved in it to much, until recently. So i'd be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on any aspect of fighting on the sea. MP of course 
Maybe this should be in the MP forum.
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Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 06:47
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I think you should just surrender.
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Ming
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 07:23
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Before Port Facilities are available to you, I would have to give the nod to Sun Tzu's.You just build a ship and cruise the coast looking for a weak unit to kill. Instant Vet. Now granted, your ships still have to be as good or better than your enemies... but I just love those vet ironclads  |
Scouse Gits
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 19:18
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I have yet to play MP - I vote for the vet Ironclads too! But don't forget that Magellan's makes the caravans pop in faster -and trading is generally is more efficient. Transports that only move 5 - yuk?!
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SG (2) |
Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 19:30
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Ming, don't help him
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cavebear
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 19:54
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Makeo - What a great question! The two seem perfectly opposed in possible advantage.I think I would want to be the attacking party with either; the usual advantages of terrain for the defense don't exist in naval battles (and assuming that neither is near home ports). Magellan's allows attacks and the possiblity of escaping out of range for damaged ships, Sun's don't get any advantage until they kill something (to get vet status). And Magellan ships will get vet status anyway if they survive. Sun's ships will get vet status before engaging other ships just by sniping off the available shoreline units, but they can't escape as well. I think that the longer the naval battles go on, the greater advantage goes to the Magellan ships. More likely, the advantage will go to the one with the better stacking and deployment skills than by which Wonder you have. ------------------
Proud participant in GameLeague... Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance... |
Smash
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 22:03
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Veterans are everything in this game but it sure is nice having 2 more moves.hmmm....I guess it depends on how watery the map is. I think I would like to have both.And The Lighthouse What about The Lighthouse?Is it obsoleted?Who has/had it? |
Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted July 26, 2000 23:17
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Bad luck for makeo that I don't leave "loose" units lying around for his ships to attack Anyway stop helping him guys - he has many advantages in this war, which he started, notably more troops and cities. I'm the underdog here |
Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted July 27, 2000 01:14
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It'd really depend what you were fighting. A full-on naval engagement? A race to a new continent to colonize? Or just all-out war? |
SuperSneak
b.02-15-99
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posted July 27, 2000 10:30
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Too bad this is a computer game. If it was a board game, I'm sure one of these two would eventually have a hissy fit and upset the board, scattering pieces everywhere. 
Makeo, I suggest you move your non-vet navy right next to Horse's veteran battleship, parking all of your units in one stack on their last move.
Happy, Horse? ------------------
Bring it! "Do not act as if you would live ten thousand years. Death hangs over you. While you live, while it is in your power, be good." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations) |
arii
b.02-15-99
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posted July 27, 2000 11:57
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I think it depends on the units involved. Caravels: I'd take magellan.
Cruisers: I'd take sun.
With low defense numbers, movement is more important; with good defense number(=to attack) vet is more important.
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Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted July 27, 2000 20:22
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quote:
<font size=1>Originally posted by SuperSneak on 07-27-2000 10:30 AM</font>If it was a board game, I'm sure one of these two would eventually have a hissy fit and upset the board, scattering pieces everywhere.
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Oh yeah, I'm a past master of this tactic Other options include spilling a hot drink or letting the spaniel in the house Trouble is, the guys I used to play with could remember exactly where everything was, for both sides. This is when the "mum upset the board when cleaning and I can't find all the pieces - she must've vacuumed them" gambit came into play The other option is a rules dispute - but that one has already been used in this game Arii, good point but I doubt cruisers are going to come into play.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited July 27, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited July 27, 2000).]
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Matthew
b.02-15-99
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posted July 27, 2000 20:53
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Before Ironclads, Magellans. If you can get the lighthouse too, then Magellans has the definite advantage a bit longer.After Iron clads, it isn't so cut and dry as you might think. Granted, any fight a boat wins means vet status. But vet status can also be obtained without the Acadamy. it just takes more tries. But opportunities will arrive. such as taking out that now vet but heavily damaged boat that just sunk your ship, which you will easily find and reach because you have magellans and it is damaged.
So you can still get vets between the lighthouse and amphibious warfare. The other guy isn't going to get the two movement bonus. Also, magellans will give your weak transport vessels a lot more survivability. You can wait 2 squares outside of his city to drop off a caravan or military load, and on your turn drop it off and move your transport out of range of any boat in the city you just visited. |
Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted July 28, 2000 00:15
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All my ships are vets 
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Ming
b.02-15-99
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posted July 28, 2000 08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 07-28-2000 12:15 AM
All my ships are vets
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So... Vet ships can be sunk too |
geofelt
b.02-15-99
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posted July 28, 2000 10:30
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Even with magellan's, you may come upon a superior force without enough movement points left to escape. I would pick sun-tzu for the land based benefits, and call the naval benefits a bonus. If your strategy uses transports to deliver units between secure cities,( I like this) then the extra movement may be critical. |
Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted July 29, 2000 06:56
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Well actually guys I've been very restrained in this thread because methinks this thread has a point. |
Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted July 30, 2000 12:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 07-29-2000 06:56 AM
Well actually guys I've been very restrained in this thread because methinks this thread has a point.
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*grumble grumble* Damn dead horses...  Anyway, I'd like Sun's if it was modern naval warfare (ironclads and above) and Magellan's otherwise. Of course, I usually have both |
Oldman
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 09:10
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Huh-Huh!!! he said Naval!! ha ha!!! Huh!
So like, uh, is that like a bizarre sex thing!?!?
Yeah, Yeah!!!!
Huh, huh!!! i saw it last week on cable, Naval Warfare 3!!! ha ha!!
Yeah!!!
Sorry guys, i think i've got that Friday Feeling...
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Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 09:59
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Aren't you a bit old for that stuff Oldman? |
Oldman
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 10:11
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Too old for what Mao? Do you mean too old for bizarre sex films, too old for that friday feeling or too old for crap, time-wasting posts?
And i'll have you now Viagra is an absolute gods send!!!! Edit: Getting fussy about my grammer in my Old age!!!!!
[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited August 04, 2000).] |
Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 10:27
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Bah! Viagra...  |
Oldman
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 10:32
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Is that like a modern day Scrouge? instead of Bah, Humbug it's Bah, Viagra!!
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Ming
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 11:28
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Mao... go spam the coffee shop...Do you +1 posting off topic if you aren't going to stay on topic! ------------------
Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net |
Steve Clark
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 12:50
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If I can steer this back on topic just to drive away the imbeciles ( ), since when does Sun Tzu gives vet ships? I thought Sun only effects ground units? |
Aaron Burr
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 14:21
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Steve,With Sun Tzu's, all units (including ships) become veterans automatcally upon winning a battle. |
cavebear
b.02-15-99
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posted August 04, 2000 18:15
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I think I'm going to have to raise my consideration of Sun's. Most of my ships survive their first battle (well, I choose carefully, and usually from port ambushes). That auto vet status for winning ships seems better all the time.------------------
Proud participant in GameLeague... Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance... |
SmartFart
b.02-15-99
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posted August 06, 2000 17:35
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Lighthouse is a winner on maps with some water. Veteran ironclads could won any game with alot of coastal cities.
Not to mention naval warfare.
Lighthose is one of most underrated wonders (pyramids too).
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Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted August 06, 2000 18:45
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Like everything else in Civ, the general answer seems to be that it depends on the situation right? It depends on what your vessels are trying to do (ie: catch an invasion force, escort an invasion force, general patrol, etc. etc.) but I'm more of a perfectionist so I'd have to vote for Sun's generally. |
Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted August 06, 2000 23:22
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The irony of this thread is that I could have had BOTH Sun and Magellan in my game with makeo. |
Scouse Gits
b.02-15-99
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posted August 07, 2000 17:45
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SmartFart - Sure the Lighthouse is a very useful wonder - but Pyramids? Please share your thoughts!
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SG (2) |
Smash
b.02-15-99
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posted August 07, 2000 18:34
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Try a solo game where the Pyramids are the first wonder you build.You may be surprised.I had forgotten how good Pyramids can be. |
Spider
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 03:58
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Sun Tsu's -vs- Magellan's? Without a doubt, hands down, I'd take Sun Tsu's in a naval battle. Obviously, Magellan's is worth more during peace time, but if at war those veteran units are deadly, and if it comes to a protracted battle at sea, the guy with Sun Tsu's will prevail. Between the discoveries of Magnetism (Frigate unit) and Advanced Flight (Bomber unit) control of the oceans is paramount in an all out war, such as you have. I'd be pumping out the naval units and looking for ways to force my opponent to do the same. You should get a 60-40 advantage or there abouts. (I.E. You'd lose 40 ironclads to your opponents 60.) The main thing is gaining undisputed control of the oceans. What good is a 7 movement transport that's afraid to leave it's port? The real question is going to be "Who has Leonardo's Workshop?" The man with Sun Tsu's can struggle along without it, but the guy with Magellans's will be devastated without Leonardo's - the comination of vet units and instant upgrades will ensure control of the oceans. The only tactic left to your opponent would be expensive bribery. |
Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Smash on 08-07-2000 06:34 PM
Try a solo game where the Pyramids are the first wonder you build.You may be surprised.I had forgotten how good Pyramids can be.
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In later times, wouldn't Adam Smith's be more practical? As granaries can be easily produced. I'd take Adam's over Pyramids in mid-game. |
Chainsaw
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 12:36
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In my early Civ-years, I always used to build pyramids as my first wonder. Your cities grow twice as fast, only the unhappiness is a problem. But if you manage to get pyramids, oracle and mikeīs, then growth and happiness combined are a strong weapon, playing expansionist.
I joined this forum about five months ago and have started playing expansionist games with the SSC since then. Iīm not sure yet which WoW-combo I prefer (SSC-WoWs - pyramids+Oracle+mikeīs), but pyramids in my eyes are quite powerful.mao: Adam Smithīs is better, thatīs my opinion. Boosts your income when playing perfectionist (like I do most often). But by that time, when ASTC becomes available, Iīd my PC someone has already built the pyramids. |
Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 12:38
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Oh yeah, I guess that's true; Pyramids come before ASTC. But the Pyramids seems...so...much...easier. |
Alexander's Horse
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Spider on 08-09-2000 03:58 AMThe real question is going to be "Who has Leonardo's Workshop?"
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Horse of course A lot of this analysis is wrong because I have magellans AND all my ships are vets thru barracks. |
Mao
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 18:24
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You two are playing a duel? Are you just allowing Makeo to stay alive for the fun of it? |
smilo
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Smash on 08-07-2000 06:34 PM
Try a solo game where the Pyramids are the first wonder you build.You may be surprised.I had forgotten how good Pyramids can be.
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Hmmm, I though it was common sence that the first wonder you have to get down is hanging gardens ? Food & growth is not a problem in early games, happines is. Building pyramids to soon is like getting temples constructed in 1 unit cities : bad choice. |
cavebear
b.02-15-99
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posted August 09, 2000 20:24
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Smilo - Depends on game level...------------------
Proud participant in GameLeague... Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance... |
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