Barb trireme unloads 3 chariots and a leader(wish my triremes could carry all that).

2 die valiantly hurling themselves against pikeman.The other picks off a settler with just a sliver of red left.I mean a sliver.

After the 2 die,the leader "stacks" with the sliver chariot.I was allready rolling in gold so I decide to eliminate the stack.

The LEADER defends the stack of 2 and I get 150 gold.BONUS.

The Barb Leader must have some sort of defence capacity. When I first started playing this game, I chased a Leader along a road with a Phalanx, utilising the Phalanx's 3rd move to attack. The Leader won the battle. And it wasn't on Deity level. Probably, in those days, Prince level tops.

I think the "barb killing ground" idea is credited to Ming. He has often brought this idea up in various threads and it works like a charm. I recently finished my quickest conquest game ever and I had one of these zones set up. It was beautiful.

I've senn several posts in the past where people deliberately leave patches of territory unexplored because "barbs like it", and they believee it encourages barb production.

From what I've seen, if there is a barb spawn-point at a particular spot, it will be used whether it's unexplored or not. It's been a while since I've played Civ II, but in TOT you see every move every barb makes in explored territory, whether you have units nearby or not. As a result, spawn points in explored territory become obvious quickly.

On a couple occasions I've built a city in that area and that seems to have stopped them.

Even a unit placed too close may block them. In my first OCC game barb ships periodically appeared at a certain spot, and I was landlocked so wanted to bribe one. I sent my diplo to the adjacent square and they stopped appearing. Eventually I moved him a couple squares away and they resumed.

- toby

quote: Barb trireme unloads 3 chariots and a leader(wish my triremes could carry all that).

I have often wondered what the stats of the barbarian leader was. My theory is: 0a, 1d, 0hp, 1fp.

The ships. If one is hanging around a remote coastline I think that building a city reasonably nearby causes the ship to off load. Just moving a diplo or other unit nearby don't.

Glad to know the killing ground idea is a winner. Will definitely give it a go. Ta Bohlen and more power to your elbow Ming.

Can't recall seeing barb chariots before. Not willing to conclude that this means they don't exist. Saw a barb tank and a barb warrior last week - both produced over the same period in a barb city - went back after game and in cheat mode got the city to produce a barb settler but couldn't persuade it to leave the city.

But that is why I posted in the first place.It seemed odd that a leader would defend a stack regardless of how injured the other unit was.It happened another time in one of the fortnight OCC games and I thought it might have been a glitch caused by the fact that the game was a scenario.

But the last time(2nd time) it was a normal game.Deity,hoardes,medium map blah blah.

I 've only seen it twice.

Part of my decision to take them out was they parked on a silk square that was roaded and I didn't want them to pillage.

maybe some other strange things-

I've had barb leaders pillage.Always when they were alone and "on the run".

I lost a warrior to a leader on hill with 1/3 strenght.The warrior attacked and lost.Not the other way round.That would be odd indeed.

My understanding is that barbarian units can appear pretty much anywhere, explored or not. The only thing that puts a kosher on that would be to have a civilization(s) expand into the "wild" areas, thus urbanizing and "yuppy-izing" them .

EST mentioned a barbarian-controlled city spawned a tank ... geez, I've never seen that. The strongest weapons the barbarians seem to get include artillery, calvary and conscripts. Nothing more. I mean, I've created barbarian howitzers and armor to take out a piss-poor placed AI city before ... but never have seen it happen "naturally."

CYBERAmazon

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Smash on 06-22-2000 04:47 PM</font> The LEADER defends the stack of 2 and I get 150 gold.BONUS.

Speak of the devil! It happened to me today. First time ever.

PS. I get barb chariots all the time. From the barbs' very first appearance in the game. They're killers.

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan on 06-24-2000 09:14 AM Finbar, Smash, on that barbarian chariot thing ... everyone knows you get barbarian chariots ... what I said was that chariots don't come off of triremes.

Understood. I was responding to East Street Trader. I think Smash was, too.

So I have one very injured Barb Chariot, hp 12 (close enough to Smash's stated Chariot condition) stacked with Barb Leader on fortressed tundra (normal defence). My Horseman attacks stack and Barb Leader defends on the very first try!

QED - Smash's experience supported .

The 2nd scenario: non-vet Warrior moved twice on river (road) with 1/3 strength attacking Barb Leader (on grassland). Warrior dies 1st try!! But survives redded next try! Well out of 10 tries, it's split 5:5.
Therefore the Barb Leader does have defensive strength >0. Using the above result one could postulate a value of 0.17 (rounding 0.16666666...) .

The postulate of a Barb Leader having a defence value of 0.17 would make sense in the context of this thread.

I often wished barb chariots were rare

Maybe cause I go for Feudalism fairly early for raging hoardes.I don't know.Maybe cause I don't go for Mono very early.

They do come by triremes.At least for me.I get just about every 4 legged barb unit from boats of some kind.

Sometimes I get these HUGE raiding parties.20+ units of cutting edge technology.They just keep popping up from a central square.

The Pikeman's Defense: ../../Forum3/HTML/001028.html?date=21:37

Attractive notion that my own preferred tech path influences this as compared to Smash's very different experiences.

Trouble is I have previously been happy with the idea that the various barb units which the game will generate over time is influenced by my current tech and the A1s' current tech.

Maybe what the disparity between my experience and Smash's suggests is that the A1s follow a reasonably predetermined tech path. That would mean that the divergencies between different human player's styles would be the main determinant of differences in the barb units generated in their respective games.

Can't say this is easy to reconcile with my own empiric evidence. Does sort of accord with some comments from Ming and others that I've noted in passing in these threads tho'.

By a side wind, it put me right on a point I consider v. important indeed - namely that you get non units from goody huts when the nearest city is not your own. Not, as I have been casually assuming (for a good many years now) when you are far enough away from your own cities. I should have realised partly because William's revelation has explained some incidents over which I have previously just had to shrug my shoulders but also because I had worked out the corresponding situation which arises when you bribe a boat.

So, thanks William. My congratulations also on the clarity of your style and presentation.

However. There are two unresolved matters. First, the paper does not explain Smash getting barb chariots from a trireme. It implies this cannot happen when we now know it can. Further the paper would require the difference in the incidence of barb chariots as between Smash's games and mine to be explained by my simply having been consistently luckier.

I know how many hours of play I have put in and can tell from Smash's posts that he has racked up a goodly few himself. So that don't wash with me.

There is a mechanism at work over and above those described in William's paper.

Any ideas? I too usually have 7 civs so it's nowt to do with that. I get barb legions from huts early and often. Wonder if anything turns on which opposing civs you get to play against?

The research I did to discover all the triggers for the barbarains was all done using Civ2-MGE played on Raging Hordes at Diety level. There could be a difference between FW and MGE with chariots on the triremes that I don't know about.

One thing.
"Beginning on game turn sixteen rebels bands begin to appear in wilderness areas on the periphery of settled regions. The owner of the closest city will receive a warning message when they appear."

While playing the no city challange yesterday, rebellions did not seem to start until I had captured my first city, (around 1800 bc) This was a Raging horde, Deity game. Coincidence? or does not having a city stop the rebellions similar to not getting barbs from huts before you lay down your first city?

RAH
Lord of the Ferrets

Of course, they don't always appear on turn sixteen either. But they never appear before turn sixteen. This rule does not apply to huts, only pirates and rebels.

To add a further note of confusion - I have played many hundreds of 2.42 games and would report that Barbarian Chariots are about as common as hen's teeth!! Maybe it's the air on this side of the pond?

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Scouse Git[1]

You don't get a barbarian result when tipping a hut before you found your first city. That doesn't mean you don't run into barbs. Nor does the fact that you run into barbs at this time indicate that they have spawned. The A1 is tipping huts too and they will ineviatably have founded a city or two so the no barbs from huts rule won't apply to them. FWLIIW, based on memory only, my experiences support the notion that barbs don't spawn before the human player founds. From what William says on numbers there are just too few around. Would guess no pirates either.

But maybe someone's seen barbs spawn or pirates landing during this stage? That would resolve this point.

Making no progress on the disparity in incidence of barb chariots. Seems unlikely that it would be different for different versions/OS. That would suggest the designers intentionally built in the difference. Why would they do that?

Also bereft of notions on the ship borne chariots. Tempted to take to cheat mode and try to duplicate - trouble is can't help but think William's researches will have been thorough and time consuming.