As a result of all of this, I've been starting to use a phalanx as my first explorer. He's easily researched, costs the same as a horseman, and has much more staying power. He's much less likely to be killed by a stray barbarian (especially if on rough terrain) and can hold a bottleneck, temporarily at least, to keep the opposition from expansion. I tend to produce one explorer with my first three cities and am finding the "border guards" much more to my liking. Sure, it's a matter of taste, but isn't everything?

What do you think? What unit do you prefer?

This brings up another question - does anybody ever actually use the Explorer unit?

Another reason is that I always make a beeline for monarchy, so even the "easily researched" preq techs are out of reach for a while.

Personally, I've started using horsemen a lot more for exploration. I used to used phalanxs almost exclusively, but that lead to me being boxed in, time after time, in mp games.

Horsemen cost the same as phalanxs, and, if the hut is on a plains, river, or grassland square, a horse can at least take down one barb, if you play it right.

Besides, while warriors cost half as much, the upkeep costs are the same, and that adds up fast.

I occaisionally use explorers, if I end up in a heavily-forested area (for instance, northern Europe/Siberia).

Of course, as soon as chivalry is availible, I switch to knights-best of all worlds.

Sometimes I explore with diplomats.

I actually use explorers.They are very good on larger maps.Also very good for mapping enemies in MP as they ignore ZOC.Move in,move out.

I usually use warriors, because I don't need a new tech to build them. They can be out cruising the board early. They don't take long to build, and who cares if you lose one. If I get a mounted unit from hut... fine, I'll use that.

I don't usually go for Horse early. I'd rather get to monarchy as fast as I can.
But, if the science path is blocked, I might take it... it all depends on the game situation.

In the long run the navies' work invested in the roads will not be wasted either.

A bit elaborate maybe. After all I've probably got diplos and some cash by the time I could do this. But I might give it a go, just to see.

2. Incidentally I've tried and tried to combine legions and horses (from huts) in some way so that the legions can kill emerging barbs before they have time to do any damage. All I've managed so far tho' is to lose a few legions as well as the horseman. Anyone made that idea work?

3. A bit later I quite often explore with diplos but of course that's not going to be an option right at the beginning.

4. In deity the first exploring units are, of necessity, settlers. Even after I've founded, the second settler is sometimes primarily an explorer for quite a while. Especially if i've been blessed with a river site. But the only hut he pops is one on a mountain or in the arctic/antarctic. I've never seen a barb come out of a mountain hut and any which emerge into the cold seem to freeze to death before they can do any damage.

Say, Ming... (or anyone else) How long do you wander, tipping huts, before you lay stakes? Also, I know that huts have a 'pattern' and I have used the map editor to examine it, but I still find it difficult to predict hut locations. You never know what corner of the "hut pattern" you've just found, etc. Any tips?

2 cities.

Cities build warriors which are sent out.Most likely will find some kind of unit.Archers or legions are sent home.Horses and chariots keep exploring while warrior circles towards home.

2nd warrior in each city can be finished before size 2.If I find a gold hut I rush them and send them in other direction for short excursion.If not,they fortify and either 1 starts wonder(if wonder tech) 1 starts settler.No wonder tech, then both start settlers.

1 unit returns to each city just before size 3.
or
Settler(s) are finished before size 3.

If hut units are supported then instead of 2nd warrior I switch to a settler and move supported units towards home.Again,if gold huts are found then settler(s) can be built on or before the same turn as cities reach size 3.

I am another of the delay founding brigade. IME it pays to hold your nerve. I often look in the 5 top cities screen after founding and am not too dismayed to see the A1 civ capitals are at size 3. You will (usually) still get your early wonder of choice and your better land development/use of crutches will soon catch you up in population.

I suspect that this tactic may only work - or work best - on large maps. One of the main points is that your hut units get well away from your capital and then any new unit is a Non. Once you found, delay tipping any still untipped huts too near your cities (maybe even until they are inside a new city's radius).

You also make early contact with the civs on your continent and get to occupy strategic points. And as the exploration phase ends you have units to send back for martial law purposes.

Incidentally, if the first hut is a unit, IME the next one is too; if the first hut is a tech the next one is too, etc. In fact if the first is a four footer the next one is likely to be the same (but that's less dependable).

The downside is bad tech slowing you up in getting to monarchy. (But then the early contact might solve that from good tech trades.)

Oddly enough advanced tribes can be quite a problem too.

Try it (on a large map). I think you'll like it.

Ming - tried to stay unburned by advancing my diplos one square at a time - turned out I don't have the patience - so I'm back to saying what I usually say which is *!#> ^*}<.

East Street Trader

1. The cities are distant from your capital and have productivity/happiness problems to be managed. Treasury won't be up to quick fix solutions. Exploration phase can get bogged down by having to divert units to martial law/defence purposes.

2. The untipped huts in the pattern which are near the advanced tribe city won't yield NON units (IMO it is hard to over-estimate the value of those early NON units. They boost city productivity in the critical early days but their freedom is still a great boon in early democracy and beyond).

3. Because your cities now develop in separated clusters you don't get to have internal communications which makes defense in the early middle game quite a lot more taxing.

If there is no or limited trade available, your capital and second city may be generating so few beakers at first, that each science will take forever to get.
By spending some time looking for a location that has some trade specials, and looking for huts, you can get off to a faster start.
As we all know, tipping a hut before your first city only provides good things... non units, money, or sciences (maybe a science you don't want early) Some claim that eventually, you might get a city, but I've never wandered that long...

This strategy can get you out on the board much faster, assuming there are some huts nearby, and you get a unit for one or two of them.

I usually can have some money in the bank, a few non units way out ahead scouting, and have a capital producing three to four times the science beakers that an average starting location gets you. And sometimes, a science or two too.

The AI always gets off to a slow start, so you really aren't falling behind... you will catch and surpass them quickly.

I have not played MP but suspect that small maps may be commoner than big. If I'm right that is going to be the factor (IMHO) which undermines this sort of approach rather than its merits or de-merits when playing on large maps. On a large map I intuit that there will still be some sort of shot at catching up. You'd have to be pretty unlucky not at least to get some good choke points. Would that not help?

I accept the margin will be different. If my human opponent is size three in his capital when I found I agree I'm toast. Even in his poor location, the human opponent will at least make the best of a bad job in choosing his city square and will not butcher his land development. He will have placed his second city sensibly too and will be exploring, or will have found, sites for cities which do have decent trade. Now I need a big slice of luck (like FINDING him and having some hut legions/chariots handy ha, ha, ha) to have any chance.

I certainly don't disagree with anything you say above.

What I said in the earlier post which caught your eye was that "advanced tribes can be quite a problem too". I didn't mean that they are outright bad - just that there are factors which (subject to the exact circumstances) make them less of an excellent outcome than they usually are.

Now, just occasionally the problems posed by the exact circumstances DO make them an outright bad outcome. I can remember times when the city was such an obvious short or long term liability that I have taken action to disband even at a strategic cost greater even than the loss of the city itself.

That we will not disagree on the proposition that circumstances alter cases I am confident.

Back to advanced tribes. If you are lucky enough to build your second city this way - your research rate can halve - and you still have a settler. In some tests I conducted recently, there seemed to be a 50% chance of a tribe (with only one city built) on grassland/plains, provided it is at least three squares away from the capital. However, you do risk barbs!

But I can still empathise with Tonic. Yeah, it's hard to imagine an advanced tribe for a second city as bad news. But what if it's not the second but rather the additional city that triggers the extra unhappy chappy? And what if I get that unhappy chappy in the exact city I least want him (AND maybe don't notice his appearance ). And maybe I've got other troubles taking up my time and resources. That might be one of the times I start wondering if all the extra hassle is worth it.

As for initial units, MP games you need to pump out warriors in hopes of tipping huts for the four legged creatures, of course any unit will do. I like dips as soon as possible as it makes incremental buying cheaper than that attrocious warrior code that often comes from those cursed huts. However Monarchy is key as is early republic

Hi Ming..... still no go on the MP front, way too busy but don't forget the hordes..... we will be back....