My opinion is that WLTXD is a crutch used by players to get around the inherent difficulty of building large cities under high overhead governments like Republic and Democracy. I have never, ever, adjusted my Luxuries rate to cause WLTXD. I have occassionally stumbled into it in a city here, a city there, lasting for a turn or two. But never what I've read here...using it to grow cities into huge size. Does anyone really think that was the design behind this? To let a civ take 20 turns to increase size 10 fold?

Apparently, this Luxuries whoring is used to quickly turn size 4 cities into size 12 cities in 9 turns. To me, that circumvents the natural growth the game intended. It is, in fact, related in my opinion to ICS. Taking the game mechanics and using them to a ridiculous fashion. At least ICS seems more subtle and realistic - 20 small cities versus 8 large ones. Using WLTXD as growth management really seems weak.

In this same fashion, is there a way to disable WLTXD in the rules? I'd like to avoid this altogether, or at least modify it so that WLTXD yields a 50% production bonus or somesuch, rather than causing such ridiculous growth...

Bring it...

But, you ask... "Does anyone really think that was the design behind this"

Well, yes! It is well documented in all the manuals (unlike many of the other things)
The rules seem very clear!
Let me Quote from the manual supplied by those designers...

Republic/Democracy
"A city currently ruled by either of these governments increases in population by one each turn it celebrates, so long as sufficient food is available. This can result in dramatic growth of the city"

Read the last sentence again... OK!
So yes, it was designed into the game, and is not a cheat.

Now, is it a crutch. Well, are the wonders a crutch? Are trade routes a crutch? These are all things that were specifically designed into the game, just like WLYD's.

Many people don't like some of the rules. I personally hate bribing cities for so cheap.
That is why they made it easy to change the rules. And frankly, if you are only playing against the computer... do whatever you want as long as you are having fun.

I have begun to learn how to use WLTxD properly after Demo and when cities have just gotten beyond aqueduct or sewers. It is still too tricky for me to manage earlier than that. I either don't have the food surplus or it hurts my shield production too much.

I don't consider it a crutch, though. Indeed, successfully manipulating the Luxuries bar requires skill and experience. It is the return on the tax and science bars that is easy(ier) and more obvious.

Trade routes and wonders are explicit parts of the game. I don't think the designers of the game expected someone to peg luxuries for 10 turns to engorge their cities.

Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.

As to the general argument - anything which utterly circumvents the aspect of the game normally bound strictly by time, i.e. city growth, seems all too easy.

Venger

You insist that the designers didn't intend for players to use WLTKD in this manner, but as Ming has already shown, it is well documented. How can you argue this point?

It seems to me that the only meaningful difference between WLTKD and all the other documented features of the game is that you don't think the +1 pop/turn is realistic. Even if it's not realistic, that alone is not enough to make it a crutch.

Do you ever build Leo's? How realistic is it that a captured phalanx can be magically transformed into a rifleman within a few turns? Leo's is extremely powerful and highly unrealistic. Is building it a crutch?
If not, what is the difference?

*PS: The below quote from you Venger, is not even logical, as NONE of these things are 'required' by this game. What applies to one of these things can apply to all.

'Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.'

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-05-2000 10:39 PM Ming: No one said it was a cheat. Just a crutch.

When you state that it is was not the designers intent, you are calling it a cheat

quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-05-2000 11:20 PM Venger- You insist that the designers didn't intend for players to use WLTKD in this manner, but as Ming has already shown, it is well documented. How can you argue this point?

Was it designed as a way to grow cities? Doubtful. Was it designed to 4 fold increase your size in 6 turns? Doubtful. It was designed as an effect, not a cause. Frankly, I don't see how you CAN'T win using it.

quote: It seems to me that the only meaningful difference between WLTKD and all the other documented features of the game is that you don't think the +1 pop/turn is realistic. Even if it's not realistic, that alone is not enough to make it a crutch.

It is if that's how you grow your cities under democracy/republic. It's ridiculous to peg your luxuries for 12 turns and have 5 times the trade arrows you had before. Here's the test - try winning the game without using it.

quote: Do you ever build Leo's? How realistic is it that a captured phalanx can be magically transformed into a rifleman within a few turns? Leo's is extremely powerful and highly unrealistic. Is building it a crutch?

Leo's is pretty nuts. I build it if no one else has, but not to the exclusion of Mike's chapel or any other one.

quote: If not, what is the difference?

Leo's is a wonder. It is in the game to provide the upgrade benefit in lieu of shields used for the wonder. WLTXD seems to be best found occassionally, for a turn or two at a city, not to grow from size 6 to size 20.

quote: Not looking to be argumentative, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

No problem, that's why I posted it. I want feedback.

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 05-06-2000 02:23 AM you sound like a ICS'r who can't stand we love the king day, because it blows ics away when done right. At least that has been my experience.

I don't multiplay and I don't ICS either. Frankly on Deity ICS is a real *****. I also don't use WLTXD to suddenly covert myself into 4 times the size I was in 10 turns.

Venger

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 05-06-2000 08:03 AM When you state that it is was not the designers intent, you are calling it a cheat

You misunderstand the nuance I am trying to address. WLTXD is in the game for a reason. I believe it is designed to provide a bump to cities that happen to have good infrastructure and a well managed Civ. I don't believe it was designed to grow your Civ like a Chia Pet.

Venger

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-06-2000 02:22 AM *PS: The below quote from you Venger, is not even logical, as NONE of these things are 'required' by this game. What applies to one of these things can apply to all. 'Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.'

I speak metaphorically. To me, Republic is a REQUIREMENT to have a successful game. Same thing with improving infrastructure. Again, a rhetorical statement indicating that if you don't build infrasctrucutre, you don't win, thus referring to it as a requirement. While it may be possible to never become a Republic (I never become Communist or Fundy, so I reckon some people can skip Rep/Dem if they really WANT to), I find it a requirement on Deity, at least at some point.

I think we may be at an impasse regarding your central point. I interpret "This can result in dramatic growth of the city" as a clear indication of programmer intent. You do not.

So let's put that aside and talk about some of the other points you bring up.

1) LACK OF REALISM: Judging by some of your comments (i.e. "find it ridiculous" and "population whoring"), I think you regard the population explosion of WLTPD as highly unrealistic.

As Hydey as already alluded to, perhaps it isn't so ridiculous. Consider the following example from modern times. In 1975, Bombay had a population of ~6 mil. In 1995, the population had exploded to over 15 mil - less than 20 yrs to double! (Hey hardcore civers: what is that in game terms? Like a size 34 city going to 55 or so?) Now this pop explosion was certainly not due to happiness, but it does show that it can happen. And during the early part of the game, 20 yrs = 1 turn - now that's a population explosion!

2. PEGGED LUXURIES/5X TRADE: For one, you certainly don't need to "peg luxuries" to enjoy WLTPD. As has already been stated, efficiently using WLTPD is not trivial, and if you do it right, you can often enjoy the benefits at a mere 40% lux rate. I don't think you'll ever see "5x trade," but you certainly do see benefits across the board that are related to increased population.

3. WINNING WITHOUT IT: Interesting proposition - I'm always looking for new ways to make the game a challenge, i.e. no wonders, launch spaceship by certain date, OCC, etc. Maybe I should add the No (intentional) WLTXD's Challenge or No Democracy/Repulic Govt. Challenge or No Luxuries Challenge. I'd be willing to try these things but only because I see it as making the game more challenging on its own terms, not because I am relinquishing a "crutch."

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Scouse Git[1]

While I thoroughly disagree with your hypothesis, I applaud the way you have responded to the answers. It seems many (or at least several) here would hold you in a dim light for proposing WLTxD is a crutch. However, you have responded to the reasoning quite well, considering your statement seems to be a touchy subject with some.

If you would agree that there is a trade-off incurred when using WLTxD, I think we could make some ground. The amount of resources a player chooses to allocate to luxuries directly affects the amount of resources taken away in science and taxes. Depending on the resource squares utilized, it can also affect food and shield production. For most players who plan on using WLTxD, it usually affects the starting city location as well.

If we can't agree there is a trade-off, perhaps we can agree that if WLTxD is available to all players (not just "weak" ones) then it is truly not a crutch.

Saying that WLT_D is "unrealistic" is meaningless. Also meaningless is saying that ICS, or Wonder effects, or the movement rate of Armor, or anything else in the game is "unrealistic" -- because it is a *game*, not a simulation, and *not* reality.

Comparisons to real-world events, such as the swelling population of Bangalore or whever, are also irrelevant.

No, what is at isssue here is simply whether WLT_D is a crutch, or not. Personally, I don't believe it is; I believe (like Ming, et al.) that the designers intended for it to be used just as it is being used -- for explosive population growth, when managed correctly. (This is starting to sound like a Constitutional debate -- "original intent" and all that!)

I propose a solution to the differences of opinion:

(1) against the computer in single-player, do whatever you want... use WLT_D, don't use it; use ICS, don't use it; use the cheat menu, don't use it. It's a game, for fun, and whichever way amuses you the most is the "right" way to play.

(2) against other players in multi-player, agree before the game what is and is not acceptable. Don't play with people who use strategies you believe are "crutches" or "cheating".

There. Now can't we all just get along? :-)

quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-06-2000 02:32 PM Venger- I think we may be at an impasse regarding your central point. I interpret "This can result in dramatic growth of the city" as a clear indication of programmer intent. You do not.

I guess I don't think it was designed to be a global explosion. I think they expected may 2 or 3 turns of it in a city. But not 7 or 8 turns of it for the entire Civ.

HOWEVER: apparently they thought it would come and go quite a bit, that's why they allowed you to turn the message off...

quote: So let's put that aside and talk about some of the other points you bring up. 1) LACK OF REALISM: Judging by some of your comments (i.e. "find it ridiculous" and "population whoring"), I think you regard the population explosion of WLTPD as highly unrealistic.

Somewhat unrealstic. Again, if this was restricted such that it couldn't occur for 10 turns in a row, for every city in your Civ, I'd be more on board with it.

quote: As Hydey as already alluded to, perhaps it isn't so ridiculous. Consider the following example from modern times. In 1975, Bombay had a population of ~6 mil. In 1995, the population had exploded to over 15 mil - less than 20 yrs to double! (Hey hardcore civers: what is that in game terms? Like a size 34 city going to 55 or so?) Now this pop explosion was certainly not due to happiness, but it does show that it can happen. And during the early part of the game, 20 yrs = 1 turn - now that's a population explosion!

Certainly not due to WLTXD, more likely We Can't Keep Our Knickers On Day.

quote: 2. PEGGED LUXURIES/5X TRADE: For one, you certainly don't need to "peg luxuries" to enjoy WLTPD. As has already been stated, efficiently using WLTPD is not trivial, and if you do it right, you can often enjoy the benefits at a mere 40% lux rate. I don't think you'll ever see "5x trade," but you certainly do see benefits across the board that are related to increased population.

In my current game (second playing ToT), I'm getting it in a ton of cities at 30%. Just lasts for a few turns though in each city, until the next trade route, wonder, improvement, etc. is built. But I keep luxuries just to where it keeps me out of disorder.

quote: 3. WINNING WITHOUT IT: Interesting proposition - I'm always looking for new ways to make the game a challenge, i.e. no wonders, launch spaceship by certain date, OCC, etc. Maybe I should add the No (intentional) WLTXD's Challenge or No Democracy/Repulic Govt. Challenge or No Luxuries Challenge. I'd be willing to try these things but only because I see it as making the game more challenging on its own terms, not because I am relinquishing a "crutch."

In the current rule set there is limited action available. Can we cap luxuries, 40% maybe? Or remove WLTXD? If so, I'm all for it. Maybe cap Luxuries at 30%.

Ideally, I think that to get WLTXD, you'd need not only half happy, but:

x% literacy
0 pollution
no more than 2 military units in the field

and some other things that would make it a little rarer.

quote: All right, I've rambled enough. Look forward to your comments and don't be too hard on Crustacean.

Well, looks like Ming nuked my response. After all that hard work to clean it up, his post is an HTML mess...

Venger

quote: Originally posted by SilverDragon on 05-07-2000 01:32 PM WLTxD is part of the game. Get used to it.

Well that was enlightening. I think that's what they tell new prisoners - assrape is part of the sentence. Get used to it.

quote: Originally posted by Sieve Too on 05-08-2000 10:30 AM I think Venger is missing the main point behind WLT_D. In order to do it successfully, you must be willing to give up a lot (expansion, war, good defense) while concentrating on infrastructure.

Oh I understand that, but I think the good player can pull that off all too easily.

quote: I also think you overestimate its effects. By the time I'm ready to do WLT_D for the first time, my cities are probably around size 6 or 7 anyway. And after bankrupting my treasury for Aqueducts, the best I can do is get to size 12, assuming I've roaded and irrigated everything. While I'm doing this, I'm losing out on science.

Sure, you lose 12 turns of research. But with 50/50 tax and luxury you can buy your improvements on the go. Heck, even 60/40. You can bite the bullet for 12 turns and emerge with double or triple the production, research, and revenue. Just seems all too easy.

Now mind you, I don't do it. I just read alot of posts where WLTXD is just a de facto part of the game, and is how cities are grown. I just find that a little bogus myself.

quote: Note that other gov'ts can attain similar explosive growth via food caravans.

But nothing like you can do in Republic/Democracy. Unless you use the infinite food caravan cheat.

quote: Originally posted by vik on 05-08-2000 11:15 AM Bravo, Venger. While I thoroughly disagree with your hypothesis, I applaud the way you have responded to the answers. It seems many (or at least several) here would hold you in a dim light for proposing WLTxD is a crutch. However, you have responded to the reasoning quite well, considering your statement seems to be a touchy subject with some.

I knew people would get bugged by it. I actually tried to take Crustacean's head off, but Ming nuked that post...

I try to be reasonable. It's not that I want to kick WLTXD top the curb, just that it seems to easy to abuse, if that's the word...

quote: If you would agree that there is a trade-off incurred when using WLTxD, I think we could make some ground. The amount of resources a player chooses to allocate to luxuries directly affects the amount of resources taken away in science and taxes. Depending on the resource squares utilized, it can also affect food and shield production. For most players who plan on using WLTxD, it usually affects the starting city location as well.

Well sure, the question is whether the short term pain is worth the long term gain, and I think that's absolutely the case in WLTXD. Take 10 turns to double or triple production and research? Pays off in the next 10 turns...

quote: If we can't agree there is a trade-off, perhaps we can agree that if WLTxD is available to all players (not just "weak" ones) then it is truly not a crutch.

Well good God man, I can't argue with that...

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark on 05-08-2000 01:09 PM Getting on this fairly late. WLT_D or Republic, heck, even trades or wonders are not requirements for winning. To win, you either conquer all of the remaining civs or get that spaceships to some stupid far off place. As evident from all of our experiences, there are countless ways of doing that. To say that Republic is a requirement is simply wrong (never done that govt myself).

Again, rhetorical statement, either one of the two (Dem/Rep) I believe is required if you expect to win on the hardest maps (Deity, large, 7, etc.). Requirement is rhetorical not literal.

quote: To say that WL is a crutch - well, I only occassionally do it in my Science City and only by setting luxuries to 20-40% at most. It takes skills to grow your cities that way, thus a very valid strategy. And growing cities by 1 over a 50/20/10 year span is realistic.

I also settle at about that rate. As to growing your city over 10 years, sure. But again, my general complaint is with pegging Luxuries at a rate designed SOLELY to WLTXD all cities for a dozen turns to grow them to then revert back to 30% but with double or triple the production.

quote: And luxuries at 80% is whoring?!

Absolutely!!

quote: Think of a small college town on the day of a big football game. I have witness towns of 10,000 swell to 125,000 (temporarily though). I have lived in cities in So.Cal that grew from 40,000 to 140,000 in only 10 years!

Well, first, those people come from somewhere else, so it's not like they come to town and STAY there. Same for cities, I lived in Las Vegas during a huge growth spurt. And I'll be damned if it wasn't also due to a pegged luxuries rate...

quote: Geez, next thing someone will say is that Pyramids are required. Sorry, just rambling...

They help! But there is no single wonder that one cannot win without. But lose Pyramids, Mike's, Hoover, and Magellan, and expect to get pounded...

the hoover dam is in no way similar in pieces to the cure for cancer.....

the game tries to be realistic, but alas it can only go so far we already beat the realism topic of civ to death last millenium, so if its realism your looking for, maybe a computer flight sim is more your spead.

Governments, wonders, luxury settings. All are parts of the Civ2 players' advanced tool box. All can be used correcly with excellent results, all can be used by the weaker player to chop off his leg. The crutches he'll need then is found in the difficulty settings and the cheat menu.

"Well, looks like Ming nuked my response. After all that hard work to clean it up, his post is an HTML mess..."

HUH???????

I have not done anything in this thread except to post, you must be mistaken.

quote: Me: In order to do it successfully, you must be willing to give up a lot (expansion, war, good defense) while concentrating on infrastructure. Venger: Oh I understand that, but I think the good player can pull that off all too easily

But shouldn't a good player be able to win the game using the correct strategies? WLT_D is but one of many strategies. Like any strategy, you give up X now in the hopes of gaining Y later. Given the severe restrictions placed on Rep/Dem gov't, there needs to be some incentive to switching to these gov'ts. Why is growing your civ via WLT_D less valid than plunking down a large number of small cities?

If you want to play a perfectionist style game, WLT_D is the only way to do it. How else can your 10 cities win against the Mongols' 40+ cities unless yours are larger?

Also remember that unchecked population growth brings on pollution. Mass Transit and Hydro Plants are a long way off from Rep and Dem. So while you might get into the low teens with WLT_D, you are basically stuck there throughout the rest of the mid-game.

In the area of realism, the "standard" method of population growth is exactly the opposite of what you expect in a real population, i.e. It takes more and more time for a city to grow each time a new citizen is added.

quote: You can bite the bullet for 12 turns and emerge with double or triple the production, research, and revenue.

You can accomplish the same thing with ICS. Or capturing your neighbors cities. Or using Spies. Or demanding tribute. Or sharing techs in an alliance. Or sending caravans across the seas.

Also you are not correct in claiming that you are merely "taking 12 turns" to come out ahead. In truth, you must have already spent many dozens of turns setting up for WLT_D: a) building infrastructure, b) improving land, c) pursuing "peaceful" science goals. All the while you are making your civ more and more vulnerable because the above also implies: a) not building a good military, b) not settling and claiming new land, c) having obsolete units.

quote: either one of the two (Dem/Rep) I believe is required if you expect to win on the hardest maps (Deity, large, 7, etc.). Requirement is rhetorical not literal.

Wonders - crutches for the weaker player?

Caravans - crutches for the weaker player?

More than 1 city - a crutch for the weaker player?

Democracy/Fundy/Commie - a crutch for the weaker player?

Not playing Multiplayer - a crutch for the weaker player?

My point is, agains't the AI, even at Deity, there is nothing that is essential to winning. Skipping any particular wonder or government type will not make you loose.