quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-13-2000 02:26 PM Venger wrote: "I believe it was designed to be more of an effect than a tool." Of all the comments posted by you Venger (both constructive and destructive), I think this is the most terse. And you know what's kinda scary to me? It's starting to make some sense. Now don't get me wrong - I still believe that the "pop-whoring" effects of WLTXD were intended by the game designers; I think that the preponderance of evidence makes this clear. However, maybe, just maybe it was not meant to be used this way, but rather as an occasional bonus effect.

EXACTLY. Look, I have games where WLTYYYD days happen to my cities. But it is a side effect, a result of a new trade route, new improvement, or wonder. It does not occur because I boosted my luxuries so I could cause my cities to bloat for 10 consecutive turns. To use WLTYYYD to grow your cities, rather than planning and time, to me is kind of gimmicky. Note that I remove planning from WLTYYD and present it as an integral part of simply building a large and successful rep/dem. Many have noted the planning needed for WLTYYD - I agree, but let the planning support a city grown through time, not through WLTYYYD.

quote: Forgive me Venger if I've misinterpreted the crux of your argument

You are forgiven! But you've captured so much of it, there is nothing to forgive...

quote: Ming, et al.- I would have to agree with Venger that both sides of this discussion are merely stating opinions. While I would argue there is more evidence on the side of "intended effect," I don't think there is any way for us to know short of talking with one of the game designers. So what say we direct the discussion more in the direction of what I believe Venger's original point may have been? Assuming that the WLTXD was not intended to be used this way, should it be used this way? Well?

One correction - I posted the following well over a week ago:

Doubtful. It was designed as an effect, not a cause.

I've tried to express this throughout, and hope that my efforts have not been seen only today.

As to your question of should, that indeed IS the crux, or alternately if you can remove it from gameplay by limiting the max luxuries rate. If I could I would, because I believe it offers the best challenge.

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 05-13-2000 02:59 PM I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

Somehow, I don't think he's using it.

And if they tried to proove how playing with more than one city was incorect well?

But if that same person said they prefered to play with only one city cuz playing with more didn't seem like enough of a chalenge, explaining why bla bla bla... and what do you all prefer? It would be differant.

BTW Venger you once said that republic was necissary (as compared to WLPD which you said was not)in the beginning of this thread but it is not. In your oppinion it is, but you can have a challenge and play the ai as a despot all the way through if you want.... it is all the same thing. But if you did play the AI as a despot all the way through would you call every one who used rep or dem weak?

The manual is a point of referance. A good argumant needs one that is mutually acceptable. By it your argument is completly lost. But you say you don't hold to it and even try to interpret the intent of the designers. Hardly anyone agrees with your interpritation, and that is for SP civ, not MP civ.

I think an MP game with max lux settings of 20-30% would make an interesting variation, but 100% (tho never necissary to get WLPD results in my games) is allowable by the game if you have a govt that allows that much and have enough bucks to pay your expenses while you do.

It's over man. Really. I read the whole thing. You made some good points, at first. But now all you do is try to make witty comebacks and belittle everyone. Through the first few posts you had some decent arguments. But after that, you just became a jackass. Earlier, someone said you belong in the OT. I now fully agree. And now i wait to get verbally bashed by Venger for expressing my opinion - **Gasp!** something this entire thread is based on...

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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Check out my 1602 A.D. site

quote: Originally posted by SandMonkey on 05-14-2000 12:42 AM At the risk of getting verbally b*tch slapped by Venger - It's over man. Really. I read the whole thing. You made some good points, at first. But now all you do is try to make witty comebacks and belittle everyone.

Right, like in my reply to Shamrock, filled with off topic vitriol and personal attacks. Or my response to JERandall, where I couldn't get over someone disagreeing with me I had to just attack him over and over. Oh and in responding to cavebear and hydey. I jumped all over them too...

quote: Through the first few posts you had some decent arguments. But after that, you just became a jackass.

Hmm, should I respond in kind and use a witty comeback, so you can then whine in another post about personal insults? Yes, look Venger, you called SandMonkey a bad name. No Venger, it doesn't matter that he called you a jackass, because I don't read the parts you reply to, it only matters that you used a critical reply. Bad Venger, bad.

When admonishing someone for their behavior, it's best to not exhibit the failings you accuse others of.

quote: Earlier, someone said you belong in the OT. I now fully agree.

You're right, the validity of WLTYYYD has nothing to do with Civ, it fits better with whatever inane banter occurs in the off topic forums.

quote: And now i wait to get verbally bashed by Venger for expressing my opinion - **Gasp!** something this entire thread is based on...

I'm curious - if the thread is so distasteful, so unworthy of your time or participation, why take the time to bother replying in it? If it's all about Venger and wanting to attack people, why stoop so low as to get in the mud with me? Is it that you just can't resist the temptation to play hall monitor? You know, you can't ignore someone, you have to demonstrate your magnanimus maturity by correcting me, for my benefit.

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-13-2000 11:06 PM BTW Venger you once said that republic was necissary (as compared to WLPD which you said was not)in the beginning of this thread but it is not. In your oppinion it is, but you can have a challenge and play the ai as a despot all the way through if you want.... it is all the same thing. But if you did play the AI as a despot all the way through would you call every one who used rep or dem weak?

No. I would consider someone who can win as a despot on DBM7 pretty damn skilled though! However, a government type I would not consider a crutch because the government can only be used a certain way - it is not a game effect.

quote: The manual is a point of referance. A good argumant needs one that is mutually acceptable. By it your argument is completly lost. But you say you don't hold to it and even try to interpret the intent of the designers. Hardly anyone agrees with your interpritation, and that is for SP civ, not MP civ.

As JERandall points out, it's not really possible to interpret the intent without finding and asking them.

As to agreement, that someone disagrees is no suprise. I would offer that some people have looked at this issue in a new way, and may over time come somewhat to the conclusion that WLTYYYD was designed to be an ends, not a means to an end.

quote: I think an MP game with max lux settings of 20-30% would make an interesting variation, but 100% (tho never necissary to get WLPD results in my games) is allowable by the game if you have a govt that allows that much and have enough bucks to pay your expenses while you do.

I'd probably say 40% as a good hard cap. If you bump to Rep early, sometimes you need it just to maintain order. By the late game 40% will give you WLTYYYD nearly in perpetuity, but it won't be as easy to make WLTYYYD occur wide with a large number of cities with a hard 40% cap.

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk on 05-13-2000 10:08 PM Somehow, I don't think he's using it.

Sure I am, I just respond point by point inserting my own quote tags...

Venger
P.S. Albert, in a can is PURE GENIUS. Better not post much or you'll blow it with your next promotion...

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-14-2000 12:28 PM P.S. I noticed you did not address whether you thought using WLTYYYD is a valid strategy or not. Now, that would seem to make your post OFF TOPIC. It did nothing but express your opinions about me, not about anything related to Civ. Ironic, no, complaining someone posts nothing but off topic attacks by posting an off topic attack?

Correct me if i am wrong.. bu haven't 2 of your last 3 posts been off topic?

And if you want me to recite the things that everyone else has said... okay!

I don't feel it is a crutch b/c it was obviously designed into the game. you may feel it wasn't designed to be used to grow cities huge very quickly, but that is your opinion. only the game designer can tell you if that was intended or not.

And, for my final thought on this topic... instead of defending yourself against everyone, why don't you just respond the the quotes that are on the topic? I dunno, that would probably kill the thread... but hey, i don't know anything, so don't even bother listening to me...

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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Do we still have the 150 post limit on these threads? if so please keep an eye on this one!!!!! i mean, "WLTXD crutch for weaker players"

It cannot, will not, should not be described as a crutch for weaker players!! if you don't like the ruling, don't use it in single player, if it's mulitplayer, organise so as not to allow it!! and for occ, it's part of the style of play, we can win at deity without too much hassle, but wltxd addeds another element in that we need to manage. It's bloody hard to use it in such a perfectionist way so as not to lose out on research or earnings. If you've not tried it, give it a go in occ and just see how hard it is to achieve the finish times that some of us get!!!
Ok, that's my bit said, i'm done - stick a fork in me!!!!!

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Oldman,

"There are not more than 5 musical notes..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 primary colours..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 cardinal tastes..." - Sun Tzu

And we build an Academy for this guy

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 05-13-2000 02:59 PM I'm really starting to dislike the "reply with quote" feature

LoL!

quote: Originally posted by Venger multiple times over a short span You are not allowed to post LoLs in my very serious thread

Ooops, I forgot about that...

quote: Originally posted by Venger multiple times over a short span You are not funny, you vagrant sodomite, I am the only one allowed to use sarcasm in this thread

Looks like I have been sent home by the official goose-stepping civ nazi.

Seriously, this clown shows up with a b2-15-99 sign-up date and 5 posts, and then he starts flaming everyone twenty times a day in one thread to build up his post count. I want to bet that the one we know as "Venger" was not the original Venger that posted here in 98/99. If I were going to get a DL, I would look for an old relatively unused login, and email Markos that I had come back after a lengthy absence and forgotten my password. Poof! Reset password, and a very old login becomes a DL.

Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up. He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners. I am just curious who he was before taking on the Venger name...

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture who I always look forward to hear from Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up. He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners.

Yeah, I would agree with that. If you look around at some of the other thread here and in other forums, venger comes across as a prick. Yes, I know, that is an insulting thing to say. In every forum I've been involved with, there are at least one person who is insecure enough to really want to have people respond heatedly to opinions and arrogant enough to trying to control the interpretation of those opinions.

However, I will disagree with you on another point. He has actually raised some good points in other threads. Not all of his posts come across like many of his posts here do.

Everybody posts here for different reasons. He is welcome to his reasons...

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture on 05-15-2000 11:28 AM Looks like I have been sent home by the official goose-stepping civ nazi.

Huh?

quote: Seriously, this clown shows up with a b2-15-99 sign-up date and 5 posts, and then he starts flaming everyone twenty times a day in one thread to build up his post count. I want to bet that the one we know as "Venger" was not the original Venger that posted here in 98/99. If I were going to get a DL, I would look for an old relatively unused login, and email Markos that I had come back after a lengthy absence and forgotten my password. Poof! Reset password, and a very old login becomes a DL.

He he he...now THAT'S funny...I'd be curious to read my old posts. I wonder if the few that were there would be of the same style. Somehow I imagine they'd sound the same as they do now. For a clown...

quote: Now I have nothing against Venger, old or new, because I think he is just posting on this thread to try to rile everyone up.

Nope.

quote: He should be commended for selecting an appropriate topic and effectively barbing his fellow Apolytoners.

Damn, I'm still waiting to see the famous unprecipitated Venger attack post...

quote: I am just curious who he was before taking on the Venger name...

I was a girl named Freida...

quote: Originally posted by Oldman on 05-15-2000 05:46 AM Please Mr Ming, Sir... Do we still have the 150 post limit on these threads? if so please keep an eye on this one!!!!! i mean, "WLTXD crutch for weaker players" It cannot, will not, should not be described as a crutch for weaker players!!

Read the title again. It was "crutch for weaker players?". Note the question mark. I wanted to posit this as a question open to debate, rather than a ruling or just pulled-from-ass observation.

quote: if you don't like the ruling, don't use it in single player, if it's mulitplayer, organise so as not to allow it!! and for occ, it's part of the style of play, we can win at deity without too much hassle, but wltxd addeds another element in that we need to manage. It's bloody hard to use it in such a perfectionist way so as not to lose out on research or earnings. If you've not tried it, give it a go in occ and just see how hard it is to achieve the finish times that some of us get!!! Ok, that's my bit said, i'm done - stick a fork in me!!!!!

That you can't win OCC with it really isn't a convincing argument.

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 05-15-2000 12:37 PM He will respond in his "normal" fashion... you can count on that. However, I will disagree with you on another point. He has actually raised some good points in other threads. Not all of his posts come across like many of his posts here do.

Well damn, thanks Ming. I think my participation here is just as useful, but I'll take the fair words nonetheless.

I didn't have time to read all of the posts for this topic, I read about half of them, so I apologize if what I am about to say has already been said..

Venger seems to think that the designers didn't intend to have "we love the x day" used incessantly to promote population growth.

And that he could understand it if there was a limit to how long or often you could use it...

My only question to Venger to try and convince him that the designers intended it to be used as long as any player wanted is this.

(Aside from the fact that the designer's specifically hinted in the manual that it is great for pop. growth.)

If the designer's never intended it to be used for as long as a player wanted, why didn't they program a limit into the game?

And I don't want to hear that they just overlooked it...I'm SURE that after deciding to include such a powerful option, they would have decided to include a limit to it as well...but it seems like they didn't want to limit it.

That all said, how people interpret the rules is their opinion, just like your own. As long as everyone respects each others opinions, then nothing is taken personally...... thus we have no accusations or misunderstandings

The beauty of Apolyton is the difference of opoinion, and comraderie which go hand and hand , along with a willingness of die hard fans to ask and reply to the many topics of this great game.

(i couldn't resist)

war4ever,

One disagreement on your assessment of the designer's intent: as was said earlier, I believe it is irrelevant. If all the designers got together and said "Yah, the population explosion is exactly what we intended with the WLTxD, I still don't think you would answer Venger's question as he worded it. Even if they did intend the population explosion, it really does not answer if it is a so-called "crutch" for the "weaker" player?

So instead of focusing on the "righteousness" of whether to use WLTxD or not, I focused on the word "crutch."

I contend, as I have contended ever since page one of this thread (and I belive Venger acknowledged it), that if WLTxD is available to all players -- weak, mediocre, strong, and/or elite players -- then it is truly not a "crutch" for just the weaker players.

Vik , i agree with what your saying, it really is irrelevant.... however that aside, its not a crutch but a reward for hard and perfectly timed playing. It took me awhile to master WLTKD and i guarrantee that if you don't learn to use it , you will lose more than you will win.

No strat is perfect..... not one of them..... there are always mistakes and nuances that wreak havoc on any well conceived plan but done correctly, WLTKD is a force to reckon with and on a large map almost a necessity in MP especially if you are dueling an icser or another fast growth operative and we all know who they are

Its nice to see someone other than Alexanders Horse be the straw that stirs the pot.... perhaps we should rename Venger.... Strawberry

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 on 05-15-2000 10:18 PM My only question to Venger to try and convince him that the designers intended it to be used as long as any player wanted is this.

The same reason the powergraph is useless. They simply never forsaw what the code in the hand of a skilled player can do!

quote: (Aside from the fact that the designer's specifically hinted in the manual that it is great for pop. growth.)

But Civ wide, for 12 turns? I just find that level of growth a little nuts.

quote: If the designer's never intended it to be used for as long as a player wanted, why didn't they program a limit into the game? And I don't want to hear that they just overlooked it...I'm SURE that after deciding to include such a powerful option, they would have decided to include a limit to it as well...but it seems like they didn't want to limit it.

Why'd they do a number of things is a question to this day. That being said, why would you want to take advantage of something that seems so ridiculously powerful? It's one thing to have WLTYYYD, another to depend on it to win.

quote: Originally posted by War4ever on 05-16-2000 05:46 AM Venger, i would have to say that although you didn't start the war... you have no problem adding fuel to the fire.

Well, I have to concede that point. I tend to not turn the other cheek...

quote: Two wrongs don't make it right, and retaliating to insults is showing a lack of maturity

Thanks Dad.

quote: ..... although i must admit i find this thread creative and some of your humour interesting

Heh, thanks, I try to at least make it interesting for the reader. Humor (hopefully) let's everyone know the discussion isn't personal, but should be taken in the spirit of the game...

quote: That all said, how people interpret the rules is their opinion, just like your own. As long as everyone respects each others opinions, then nothing is taken personally...... thus we have no accusations or misunderstandings

Well said, and I cannot agree more.

quote: The beauty of Apolyton is the difference of opoinion, and comraderie which go hand and hand , along with a willingness of die hard fans to ask and reply to the many topics of this great game. Venger, i seriously doubt you will find many who will play without the possibility of WLTKD's ........maybe in time , but no one now i think is really interested based on the fact that no one is really convinced of your stance. I think the best point you raised is the one of the interpretation of the rules.......... this has validity as there is no way to know what the programmers wanted without sending a request by email or such

Half of my hope was to find a way to prevent/limit it altogether, so that quest has unfortunately failed. As to convincing, well, that was really never my intent, but a good discussion was, and alot of people have participated with meaningful arguments.

But then again, some people... wait... must control... turn... other... cheek...

If you are interested in a duel to test your strat out on me i would welcome the challenge... i am an average player but interested in seeing whose strategy is better, yours or mine.....

quote: Originally posted by Bohlen on 05-15-2000 10:32 PM Ming, please close this thread. It has become a boxing match and a very silly one at that.

You know, I hate country music.

Really, I do. The twang, the stupid lyrics, the cousin marrying angle. I find it akin to listening to my scrotum rip.

But you know what? I don't turn on the country music station and whine about "Oh I hate that music! Why don't they stop?" I don't buy country music CD's and then complain to the record store how awful they are. I don't buy tickets to Garth Brooks and then mope in the front row, or yell out for him to play "Freebird".

Point is, you know what this thread is about, SKIP IT. Why should people who want to discuss this topic be prevented from doing so simply because you don't like the content? You do not have to pay to download it, pay for the hard drive space to hold it, or are prevented from posting topics of your own because it is present.

If you don't want to participate, don't go away mad. Just go away.

quote: Originally posted by vik on 05-16-2000 05:04 PM I contend, as I have contended ever since page one of this thread (and I belive Venger acknowledged it), that if WLTxD is available to all players -- weak, mediocre, strong, and/or elite players -- then it is truly not a "crutch" for just the weaker players.

I see your point - Crustacean has inelegantly argued the same point, with sound thinking if not sound typing and a tendency to Yoda... I'm unsure if it's entirely invalid, because I think the question of endless turns of Civ-wide WLTYYD still applies to MP games. But I do see where you feel the universality of the rule is a mitigating circumstance in my original posit. Hey, I think I managed to use three really-big-words-to-sound-smart in one sentence! Woohoo!

quote: Agree with me you do? Hmmmmm?

Arggh, are you Crustacean's literate double login twin?

Venger
P.S. I think you can make any sentence a Yoda sentence. All you need to do is randomlyy scramble the words and add a yes or mmm...let's try on the first sentence in this paragraph...

Once there was a great indian chief who came to an army fort and spoke through an interpriter. After much waving of the arms and eloquent colorfull words in his own tongue to the effect that his people were proud....and from the sunset to the great river they have lived...and so forth he continued til finally done.
The army officer asked the interpriter what he had said, and "he wants food and blankets" was his simple cut to the point reply.

Venger, since it is your thread, it is up to you to start the continuation thread if you want to. If you do start part II, I will archive this thread, and post a link to it's new location.

For now, this will appear as closed. I will then archive it after a new thread has started or it appears that most people have seen that this thread reached it's limit.