Here's what I propose: I will generate a scenario game, which I will email to anyone who requests it. Everyone plays the game, keeping a log and saving every 20 turns. We can compare notes just like the OCC threads. You can play any strategy you like: OCC, spaceship, conquest. All participants are honor bound not to use cheap tricks like reloading huts - it's not a contest, but a comparison of civ styles.

If anyone would like to volunteer a web site for posting the starting game and peoples' final results, that would make things a lot easier. If not, I've done this via email in the past.

I emailed the file to Paul for him to post - I wanted to check it out a little further to make sure nothing strange happened, but I'll bow to the current enthusiasm.

Notes: it's a randomly generated medium map (50x80), standard rules and units, except:
- No goody huts
- No barbarians
- Eliminated civs do not restart

Somehow the Romans managed to build all of the wonders except for Apollo; then they mysteriously vanished from the face of the planet. It's left as a battle between you and five AIs. I suggest we all play as the Zulus; any other civ will have a different start position, invalidating the comparison to some extent. Play any difficulty level you like - this should be a somewhat challenging game. In our final reports, we should note what version of civ software we were using, and our difficulty level in the game.

One question, though. How do I set the level? Isn't that already decided? Did I understand it to be deity?

Anyway, in for a penny, in for a pound. I'm off to conquer the world.

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Frodo lives!

I played the Zulus. I am tons ahead on the powergraph but *every* ai civ is allied against me!! (and I attacked nobody!!!)

A war on every front - North - South - East - and if someone was west of me I'm sure they would have attacked me too!!

Who is comparing the savings?!? Can you tell me where I'm going wrong???

I tried:
Downloaded the scn file from Paul's URL (unzipped version).
Put in a directory called "challenge" in the Scenario directory.
Clicked on it in scenario mode.
Got Windows "Illegal operation" right off.

I play MGE with what I think is the one major patch that I downloaded from Apolyton. Are there other patches I need?
Thanks!

I'm downloading it now, will have results and saves later...

BTW-who do we email the saves to?

sold sewers and aquaducts at sizes 30,26 and 21

It was alot of fun playing without wonders also.

Well, after building a few temples, several barracks and exchanging boat loads of techs with the English and Persians, I went after the Indians with vet Legions and Knights (they wouldn't trade with me, so I clobbered them). It took awhile, but I captured or destroyed all 8 of their cities. I have now started to clobber the English with Knights and had the French start a war with the Persians. The Egyptians have 3 of the 5 largest cities, so they're going have to wait until I clobber them with Cruise Missiles and Alpines.

My overall strategy, as always, is to hit them hard when I am stronger. I go for peace in all cases upon initial contact, just to get techs and then when I'm at their door, demand tribute and they say, 'prepare for war' and I say, 'already prepared'.

So far, I found this scenario to be illuminating - I can stick with my regular clobbering strategy even without wonders! Makes me think that wonders are just convenient luxuries and not necessities. Go figure.

hydro plants-the civlopedia says they are built where running water is located.I assume this means they are only available in cities with rivers and perhaps adjacent to mountains.I couldn't build them either so I went for mass transit and recycling.Could also have done the OCC thing and had 2 engineers for each city.Easy for my game with 3 cities but not so easy for someone who builds many cities or conquers a bunch of ai cities.

1918 the Zulus finished it off fundy. First time I have used a fundamentalist governement. Unlike Smash, I made 5 cities on the Rock of Shaka and then expanded. I got really tired of the Senate and executed the upstart dove leaders and went on howitzer rampage.

Geesh, I'm very happy playing without wonders. I saw Steves comments and I agree. Maybe wonders are overrated.

I tried to keep a log, but MS word ate it up when I hit some keystrokes...drives me nuts. I did some saves early on but I'll just be content to chat about the game. Definately fun playing a regular game in a comparison format....hope to do better with the log and saves next time.

AU

1. Please send me a zip containing all your saves after you finish the game. If you send me the saves in several smaller packages I would just get a whole bunch of zips and would lose track of it.

Going back to your three city approach, I managed three cities up to size 28 without going above 10% luxury. Two of my cities were at size 26, but the capital with the Spice was 28. Also built anti-pollution for all three cities and managed a 50+shield output for two cities and a 80+ shield for one city. Three cities was much easier to implement too....hate to see Paul's results....But with a second chance, using V2.42 and OCC Trade principles and OCC Science giveaway, I managed 1896 AC. All three cities had three early trade routes and near the end, each trade route averaged 20+ trade contribution. Science was over or around 900 beakers at 10% luxury.

Thoroughly enjoyed the second attempt--no 6 turn bouts with Anarchy

I played an expansionist isolationist strategy! I expanded to the nearby islands, but had as little to do with the neighbors as possible. This meant
No diplo/spy
No trading for techs or asking tribute.
No attacks on enemy territory (I counterattacked their units on my islands.)

I did allow myself to dump caravans on their cities for trade, though that didn't last for all that long (they kept on sneak attacking my triremes/caravans). I don't know how to avoid that in MGE, any suggestions?

I ended up with 13 cities (had 14 but 1 got conquered mid-game). The Indians built Apollo, but I was able to rush-build the spaceship and landed in 1916.

I was never able to get Paul's unzipped version of the scenario to work, but the zipped version worked fine when I eventually tried it. I've mailed my saved games to Paul, though unfortunately they're not at as regular of intervals as I would have liked!

I followed an OCC strategy with this one, and landed on AC in 1801. I've forwarded my saves (as close to 20 turn intervals as I could remember at the time) and a log to Paul, but here are a few comments on the game.

- I formed an alliance with all AI civs on the first turn, and kept the alliances the whole game. In fact, there was not one battle fought, even between the AIs. I thought I should get a 600 point bonus for peace, but it seems to max out at 33. Without barbarians, I disbanded all defensive units when I switched to Republic.

- The AIs grew a lot faster on this medium map than they do on a small map. Unlike the usual 6 or 7 techs that the AI researches ahead of me in a typical OCC game, the AI researched 39 techs (which I got through trade) ahead of me.

- I built 6 cities fairly early on, and expanded to 10 cities by the end of the game. In retrospect, I would have been better off with the 6 cities (I got the first 6 cities up to size 21, except for my capital which reached 32).

Do you think we could make this into a tradition, like the OCC? Say NWC for No Wonders Challenge?

Also, I'm curious how Dave managed to get the Romans to disappear with all the wonders...was it a 0-size city, or barbs, or what?

I played 5-cities on the rock, all ports, almost exclusive perfectionist, with occasionally colonizing a new continent. I played prince (yeah, I'm a wimp , but it kind of evens out, since I didn't think to check the contacts until I met the French (around 1 AD if memory serves me right), so I lost big-time of tech trading.

Went republic, headed straight for democracy. Alternated max science possible to get a critical tech with max tax-rate to buy marketplaces, temples, aquaducts...I had most of my cities maxed out, or in WLTP days by around 500 AD.

Met the french and indians, set up a toehold on the western edge of indian's continent. They would occasionally attack me (ha! elephants charging uphill into the rain of musketballs from veteran musketeers, fortified behind city walls), and each time they attacked, I bribed a city away before the senate stepped in.

It came down to me and the Delhi-roadblock. It was their capital, so no bribing. My forces died a couple of noble deaths, with dips trying to knock down the walls of Jerricho, and dragoons bouncing off.

In short order, around 1580, I decided to screw my pacifist tendancies, and went fundie the turn I got tactics. Built hordes of dips and calvalry, and beat the pants off of gandhi!

Next were the french, then the persians, then the english, last the egyptians.

I set things up so that I'd show up by their continent with two transports (2 dips and 6 calvary on each), each transp. by a port city. I'd bribe the two ports, land the troops, and and take at least two other cities with the dips and cavalry.

This way, it would take, on average, two turns (first for landing and attack, second for mop up) to take any given continent.

The egyptians perished in 1760, just 180 years after the high priest started up da wompin'...

In hindsight, there is a lot that I would have done differently: going fundie sooner, acknowledging the other civs' existance before 1 AD, and a couple o' other dings...but t'was fun, and I'm going back to play more...

By the way-do I send the saved files for every ten years, or was it every twenty? Saved for both...