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Author
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Topic: Pre-modern Conquest Strategy? Current Date/Time:
March 02, 2000 03:12:38
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Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 26, 1999 10:46
  
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I Think that Leonardo's Workshop is the most important wonder of the world. Because of hit points and firepower, there is not one unit in the game that does not benefit or at least stay the same in it's attack/defence ability when it is upgraded. |
Cargon-Boom
Chieftain
From: Alpha Centauri
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 26, 1999 10:50
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Ri-Jon Boom! is not totally incorect if you sorround a city with catapults after taking down walls with diplomats ,if there are walls, you can take over a city easily. If you saboutage a city and take it over than you have a poor city, but if you take over a city that has a lot of improvements you can regroup even faster and attack with the use of a good city instead of waiting for the city to finish building.
[This message has been edited by Cargon-Boom (edited August 26, 1999).] |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 26, 1999 11:10
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Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me, Cargon-Boom?
[This message has been edited by Ri-jon Boom! (edited August 26, 1999).] |
Sieve Too
Prince
From: New Hampshire, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted August 26, 1999 12:47
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The biggest bummer with Leo is that you lose veteran status when the upgrade occurs. The most annoying upgrade is the vet Ironclad to non vet Destroyer. Since Ironclads and Destroyers have the same att, def and hps, the "upgrade" is actually worse. Second worst: vet Musketeers to non vet Rifleman. Since these are defensive units, losing the extra defense in the upgrade is annoying. Other "losing" upgrades: vet Chariot to Elephant, vet Elephant to Crusaders.Best upgrades: Settlers to Engineers, various infantry to Musketeer, all the "horse unit" upgrades (except as noted above), Diplomats to Spies, all the "big gun" upgrades, all the ship upgrades (except as noted above). Yup, Leo is one great wonder. |
Sten Sture
King
From: San Francisco
Registered: Mar 99
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posted August 26, 1999 14:09
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Agreed about the Vet thing. And the worst deal with Vet Ironclads to Destroyers is the two dips you had on board ready to bribe a couple of key coastal cities. |
jpk
Prince
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Feb 99
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posted August 26, 1999 14:17
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If I have a city defended by a nonveteran rifleman and some unit with poor defense, say an elephant or crusader or diplomat, visits my city I will often attack with the rifleman rather than a dragoon or cavalry unit the city might also have. The rifleman almost always wins and sometimes it becomes a veteran.You might not want to try this if you are being attacked by a horde of units. |
Cargon-Boom
Chieftain
From: Alpha Centauri
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 26, 1999 18:50
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Ry-jon Boom! I am not dissagreeing with you. |
jimm
Settler
From: Berkeley,CA,USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted August 26, 1999 18:59
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Hmm, the problem I've had with the vet to
non-vet upgrade comes when my vet pikemen
are upgraded to nonvet musketeers. Next,
barbarian crusaders jump off
a ship, eat my new musketeer, and demand
money... or take the city. |
Ken Hinds
Warlord
From:
Registered: Mar 99
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posted August 27, 1999 01:43
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Sten-Sture,
What modpak are you using that lets you put Dips aboard Ironclads? Or, did you mean the Frigate to Destroyer upgrade?Ken |
My Wife Hates CIV
Emperor
From: Juaa nt vyrr!
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted August 27, 1999 02:18
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Leos is good. For me the upgrades are not a big deal since most of my defensive units are along my borders in forts on mountains or hills. A none vet muskette guy will be vet soon enough as the AI attacks a well fortified unit.For me SOL is 'the' wonder to have. I hate being in democracy when the AI demands I move units away from its cities even though those units are just as close to my cities. Just before my governemnt collapses I can switch right back to demo and keep the land in question. As far as taking AI cities it's so easy now after playing a bunch of MP. I just pre work my settlers. Move them (on a road) right next to a AI city, build a fortress, move in a couple of defensive units along with some attack units (cats, crusadors... whatever). It will fall soon after that. Pre-worked settlers are key in any army. |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 27, 1999 10:38
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First of all I would like to get the math straight on hit points and firepower. The way to find a units true fighting potential is, if you are attacking,to multiply it's attack strength by it's hit points, then it's firepower. To find a unit's defence strength, do the same thing, only multiply the defence by the hit points and firepower. So, for example, an attacking musketeer would be 3 (the attack factor) times 2 (It's hit points), which is 6. So you see, a musketeer has the same attacking strength as a veteran legion. This is because Hit points say how much damage a unit can absorb during any battle, not just when it is defending. The same applies whith firepower- it is not just used to find out how much damage it can inflict on the thing it is attacking, but also how much damage it can inflict on it's attacker. |
Ed Connery
Chieftain
From: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted August 27, 1999 12:32
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MWHC: So how do you "pre-work" settlers? Is this a matter of accumulating some "build points" in another square, then moving them adjacent to your target city? Meanwhile, since I started this thread, perhaps I should add an update on my progress. Using ideas from this thread, I can now reliably conquer the world at deity level with pre-modern units. (Likely I'd still be "meat on the table" for experienced MP warriors, since the AI is such a pathetic opponent.) My most recent involved a Deity game on the "europe" map (which is something like 149x80), seven civs, no restart, raging hordes, with a central starting position. It took me until about 1800, by which time I had dragoons (as usual). Curiously, on the last turn of the game my dips upgraded to spies. With over 100 cities, even in Fundy with max taxes, I was still getting a new tech every 8 turns or so. I had about 170 dragoons towards the end, and about 160 musketeers on garrison duty. It got very tedious just moving all the units. (I used "Go To" as much as possible, with the usual occasional bizarre glitches from the "Go To" programming.) |
Cargon-Boom
Chieftain
From: Alpha Centauri
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 27, 1999 20:23
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I find that the strongest civilization in the beginning of a game are the Spanish(maybe not all games but some). Conquer the spanish first, which is hard, then you are promoted higher in the ranks of full power. When your done with conquering the Spanish youll find that the other civilizations are in war or at peace. Go for the stronger civilization n fall back and regroup attack them than the weakened one. |
My Wife Hates CIV
Emperor
From: Juaa nt vyrr!
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted August 27, 1999 23:26
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yes, thats all I mean. park a settler on a mountain or hill and start making a fortress. after what 2 turns i think click on the settler and move him to where ever. The next time you go to make a fortress it just appears right away, even if the settler has only 1/3 left for movement. It helps a lot against the AI and against humans who are sleeping (which is hard not to do in a MP game). |
Cargon-Boom
Chieftain
From: Alpha Centauri
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 29, 1999 20:37
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should you attack the stronger or the weaker i think the stronger so that they cannot become even more stronger. |
Cargon-Boom
Chieftain
From: Alpha Centauri
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 29, 1999 20:37
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should you attack the stronger or the weaker i think the stronger so that they cannot become even more stronger. |
Cargon-Boom
Chieftain
From: Alpha Centauri
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 29, 1999 20:38
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should you attack the stronger or the weaker i think the stronger so that they cannot become even more stronger. |
berzerker
King
From: topeka, kansas,USA
Registered: May 99
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posted August 30, 1999 02:59
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In a recent MP game a human opponent went for my capital. He sent 5 or 6 knights up against my city walls and got slaughtered. The next wave was accompanied by dip's who destroyed my walls. My fortified veteran phalanxes and legions were attacked by another wave of 6 to 7 knights. He lost them all and I lost none. My city was not on any special terrain. Barracks are the key to survival, had his units been veterans and mine rookies I would have lost. |
Ed Connery
Chieftain
From: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted August 30, 1999 13:55
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MWHC: Thanks. Seems like a bug to me! Oh, right, it's just another undocumented feature. Does this "priming" last indefinitely, or does it go away after a turn or two? For example, let's say the terrain adjacent to the target is a hill, thus using all of the settler's movement (no 1/3 left over). Assuming that the settler lives that long, can the fortress be built the next turn? (I know, I know, go try it!) |
Smash
King
From: Vancouver Canada PST
Registered: Jul 1999
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posted August 30, 1999 17:45
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After a few all out conquest games,I still like cats however,dragoons are wonderful conquerers.Don't know if you would consider them pre-modern or not.All in all though the best early unit for war is a VETERAN unit.No doubt about it,so barracks and war academy. |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted August 31, 1999 00:41
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I don't even attack other civs untill i build the war acadamy, then I build up an army of veteran cats and let 'em have it! |
Cargon-Boom
Chieftain
From: Alpha Centauri
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted September 01, 1999 00:03
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I wonder why it was posted 3 times thats weird. |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted September 10, 1999 10:50
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Jeez, Cargon! You sure know how to kill a topic! No one has posted in here for a while!
Anyway, what does everyone think about legions? They are slow, and they are not the best at anything. The catupalt is the best on attack, the elephant is best on moving and then attacking, but what does a legion have that even an elephant doesn't have (besides extra defense)? what need is there for extra defence, when you can land and attack on the same turn, as with an elphant, or build a fort next to the enemy's cities and fill it up with catupalts and just attack the next turn? Maybe legions should be built sparingly, as escorts? Maybe for defence only? Maybe to hold ground that has just been taken with your catupalts and elephants? What do you think? |
jpk
Prince
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Feb 99
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posted September 10, 1999 10:56
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I never build legionaires, but I will bribe them. |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted September 10, 1999 11:05
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I used to build them in huge quantitys, untill I realize that with Leonardo's WS they are upgraded to musketeers, and although I don't really have a problem with using musketeers on defence, canons and dragoons are much more effective on enemy cities. |
DaveV
Prince
From:
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 10, 1999 11:28
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I never build Legions either. Crank up their movement to 2 (Knights), though, and they are my favorite early-conquest unit. |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted September 10, 1999 20:54
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What about the pikemen? |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted September 11, 1999 03:14
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I'm sorry to be such a skeptic, but a pikeman, even a non-veteran one without city walls for extra defence, has a defence value of 6, the same as a veteran knight's attack value. |
DaveV
Prince
From:
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 13, 1999 07:54
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RJB,Knights are poor against pikemen, but the whole idea here is to be well ahead in the tech race. The AIs place a low priority on Feudalism, so it should be easy to have lots of Knights while the AIs are fielding phalanxes and warriors. By the time they have pikemen, you should have dragoons. |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
From: Chicago CST
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 13, 1999 08:40
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Yes, veteran knights will lose to pikeman.
But, who cares. If it takes 2 knights to take out a pikeman, you can still sweep across the board. And as mentioned earlier, the trick is to hit the AI's before they get them. And even if you don't, only a few of the defenders will actually be pikeman. The bulk will still be warriors and phalanxes. And vet knights can eat those guys alive. |
Sieve Too
Prince
From: New Hampshire, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 13, 1999 10:04
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FWIW, the last time I experimented with the game, I found that Pikemen really only get a 50% defense bonus against mounted units - and only against the 10 hp ones. There is no extra bonus against Dragoons or Cavarly (or Howitzers). |
Peter Hennesy
Warlord
From: UK
Registered: May 99
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posted September 13, 1999 15:39
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I dont think they'd have time to complain with the howitzers somehow!  |
Hodad
Prince
From: Mars
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted September 13, 1999 16:25
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the earlyest i went to war were knights, but alternated with crusaders .
now i just go for mtd. archers (3a 2d 2m, cost 1 and 1/4 of a regular archer) early, they become knights, etc. for an early conquer. to go for mid war (as soon as i go democrat) is to have a city with shakespeare and king richard, and pump out troops: voilá, no unhappines. |
Miner
Warlord
From: London
Registered: Jul 1999
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posted September 14, 1999 07:46
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Sieve TooSorry but I have to disagree with you here. I did a test of the *2 defence vs move 2 flag for this very reason. I made a custom map of all plains (so no variation in terrain) and used the cheat mode to create 3 rows of 10 units. All of these units were extra custom ones (and therefore should not have any special abilities attributed to their place in rules.txt).
The test units were all based on a unit with a defence of 6 (non vet, fortified). The first row had a HP of 1(0) with the flag, the 2nd row a HP of 2(0) with no flag and the last row HP of 2(0) with flag. I then cheat built 10 non-vet cavalry beside each unit and saved. Loading the game I just attacked the units and repeated 10 times to give a percentage. The 2* flag works regardless of HP, but admittedly doesn't give much extra defence, only a few %.
I have the spreadsheet of results and the save 'game' on my PC at home. |
Miner
Warlord
From: London
Registered: Jul 1999
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posted September 14, 1999 07:54
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Sieve TooMust disagree with you. I extensively tested the extra defence vs units with move of 2. The flag does work against units with a greater HP than 1(0) but the effect gets smaller, a few percent at most. The conclusion being is that greater HP is more effective than this flag bonus.
I do have the spreadsheet of results and the saved 'game' I used on my PC at home - which is unfortunately yet to be unpacked. |
Miner
Warlord
From: London
Registered: Jul 1999
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posted September 14, 1999 09:09
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Sieve TooMust disagree with you. I extensively tested the extra defence vs units with move of 2. The flag does work against units with a greater HP than 1(0) but the effect gets smaller, a few percent at most. The conclusion being is that greater HP is more effective than this flag bonus.
I do have the spreadsheet of results and the saved 'game' I used on my PC at home - which is unfortunately yet to be unpacked. |
Sieve Too
Prince
From: New Hampshire, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 14, 1999 09:21
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Argh! I can't find my old test results! I will have to withdraw my comment about Pikemen. Apologies for misleading anyone.The only thing I can remember for sure about my tests is I used unaltered Pikemen - no custom units, any and all slot oddities intact. I did start out with Pikemen altered to 100 hp, to reduce localised bias in the psuedo-random sequence but I had to go back to 10 hp Pikemen for some reason. Can't remember why... |
My Wife Hates CIV
Emperor
From: Juaa nt vyrr!
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 14, 1999 09:32
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In MP the key to attack is surprise. I have found most people do not defend well enough because they are busy building wonders and city improvments. So the key is learning who defends and who takes a chance. Rah defends the best (and builds on mountain tops! I hate that). |
Smash
King
From: Vancouver Canada PST
Registered: Jul 1999
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posted September 15, 1999 17:18
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Yes!Surprise,diversion and flanking.Superior technology doesn't hurt either  Try surprise attacking the snot out of someone,have the game crash,go back and see what happens when you've lost the element of surprise.That sucks.
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited September 15, 1999).] |
Miner
Warlord
From: London
Registered: Jul 1999
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posted September 16, 1999 12:22
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Sorry for repeating myself there, every time I posted it didn't show on the thread.
After my first post I couldn't be arsed to write it again so posted a brief version which I copied and pasted first.Damm internet connection! |
Ri-jon Boom!
Warlord
From: Ri-jonia, Jupiter
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted September 17, 1999 01:14
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Just edit one of them. |
Matthew
Prince
From: Junction City, Kansas. USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted October 24, 1999 11:28
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Don't knock musketeers. A vet musketeer is better on offense than any older unit except a vet catapult, and better on defense than anything early on.If you see someone with the war academy land musketters on fair defensive terrain next to an important city, walls or no walls, be afraid. Be very very afraid. And catapults? a vet catapult with 2/3 movement point left is a lot better than a knight or a crusader against pikemen. And as far as rounding goes, there has been some discussion in previous threads that brought out that in combat there seems to be no rounding down. If there were rounding down then a vet trireme wouldn't be any better than a non vet trireme. Think again. How about this for a good attack force? (useful if some freaking hut gave you iron working) three groups, each consisting of 2 vet catapults and a vet legion. Land them on good defensive terrain (3 different squares) adjacent to the enemy city. He will probably be able to take out 1 stack, maybe 2. but the third is still there. Off shore you have in a boat with another unit to take the soon to be empty city. Also, 1 or two explorers to land and pillage roads to prevent reinforcement. If he has mobile units (likely, as elephants are more common in MP than legions) replace the legions with pikemen. It isn't likely that he has more than 1 good offensive unit in the city anyway, and he has a choice of either rush buying another, or rush buying walls. That's why your ally has a trireme with a near by diplomat or 2. Your turn ends, defender buys walls during ally's turn. at end of ally's turn he destroys production. He he he he. |
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