posted June 17, 1999 19:10            

Please check Technology 2.0 at Firaxis for the current debate on this topic. However, should you wish to post on Apolyton...

Welcome to the Technology 2.0 Thread. Here we try to formulate suggesetions and improvements for the Technology and Science research part of CivIII. A summary of all the ideas is below. If a certain point really piques your interest, you might want to check the back threads to see the original debate on it.

And as a reminder, I will not try to squash or destroy your idea; but I will try and summarize them fairly and impartially here in the summary and in the final letter to Brian.

Here's a quick overview of the summary-

Section I: The Research Process (How do I do research into technology?)
Section II: The Tech Tree (How do I get specific techs?)
Section III: The Techs Themselves...
Section IV: Issues of Technology Cost.
Section V: Science and its relationship with Infrastructure and Society.
Section VI: Game Options set at the Beginning of the Game.
Section VII:Things NOT to do.
Section VIII: Actual Techs Suggested.

Without further ado, the summary...

Section I: The Research Process (How do I do research into technology?)

1) MULTIPLE TOPIC RESEARCH -- Many of the following ideas require that you be able to research several ideas at once. There must be some advantage to researching things in parallel rather than serially, or else no one will do it.

2) TECHNOLOGICAL FIELDS -- Many of the following ideas require that the techs be placed into a small number of broad categories. So far, the suggestions have been: Philosophy, Agriculture & Biology, Economics, Math & Physics, and Psychology. Effort should probably be made to make the different fields roughly equal in terms of number and usefulness of techs (trying to put the old tech tree into these categories give Math&Physics a big advantage...)

3) DEVELOPMENT INERTIA -- It doesn't make sense that the same researchers who just gave you "Nuclear Fission" would be able to turn around and give you "Television, because they are only peripherally related. Scientists are specialized, and can't easily be pushed around to different fields. You should have multiple "teams", each of which is working on a different project. When they are done with one, they will research a second project in the same field at a faster rate than an unrelated field (or pay a higher cost to research an "outside our expertise" field -- the effect is the same). See 16 for a similar idea.

4) RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA' -- There should be several fields of research (see item 2) and you can set different allocations for the different fields (e.g. 25% of research points to Philosophy, 25% to Ag, 50% to Econ.) representing the number of scientists in that field and the money/work poured into it. However, whenever you change the allocation, you take a hit to the "efficiency" at which you research the topic you changed(i.e. number of research points per turn decreases), which is proportional to the magnitude of the change. This "efficiency hit" gradually diminishes over time until your society reaches "scientific equilibrium" at the new settings. This effect is likely to result in a "character" for different civs, because some will emphasize one field over another depending on their AI, and be unlikely to change because of the cost.

5) TECHNOLOGICAL "FIELDS" CONTAINING MINOR TECHS- 15-20 general fields of science are created to look into, like "Medicine," Agriculture," "Industrialization," and "Metallurgy," each containing many, many minor techs. You can choose which field (or fields, under option 1) you want to research (And, under ideas 2 &4, perhaps you research 3 fields at once each in different categories with different amounts of work on each), and you get minor techs from that field until you switch. This allows a far, far greater amount of minor techs (in Medicine alone, you might have "Anatomy," "Germ Theory," "Antiseptics," "Circulation of Blood..." It also allows you to have some direction to your research, but have some element of randomness still exist (see OFFSHOOT TECHS idea for a similar idea).

6) "GATEWAY" TECHS- If you have an era system (Antiquity, Renaissance, Industrial, Modern?), there should be a "gateway" tech for each new era that allows it to truly flourish. If you haven't researched that tech, then all other techs of the same era cost double the amount (or some other penalty). So researching The Corporation before Railroads will be possible, but expensive (if Railroads is the gateway tech to the Industrial era).

7) AI TECH TRADING INTELLIGENCE -- Make sure that the AIs only make tech trades that make sense. Why trade for "Mass Transit" if you don't have "Automobile"?

8) STARTING POSITION DEPENDENT CIV SPECIALTIES -- When a civ is placed on the map, give it a tech specialty. This solves the problem of saying "the Phoenicians should get a seafaring bonus because they had a maritime empire" by instead giving a civ that starts close to water a maritime bonus (and if that happened to be the Phoenicians, then you could play the Phoenicians like the existed historically, although hopefully they'd last longer ). A tech specialty would be a small bonus to research in related fields (or simply a higher beginning allocation to a certain field, if the RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA' system is used). The bonus should disappear in modern times. (not necessary with SLIDER BAR system) Maybe give user the option to decide which type of place to start in, so that he or she can determine character of civ?

9) HISTORICAL ERA SHOULD PLAY A ROLE -- Since in ancient times scholars studied a wide variety of fields (they were real Renaissance men ) it makes sense to have tech specialization only play a role in more modern types of research (e.g. an ancient Greek philosopher might have contemplated both the role and practice of government as well as the laws of motion).

10) FAMOUS SCIENTISTS -- Scientific personalities, such as Einstein or Pasteur might provide some "flavor" to the scientific experience. Maybe these are random events that give you one time bonuses? ("Pasteur has established a laboratory in Paris, science output doubles in Paris for one turn" or something). On the other hand, some have suggested scientist "units" given as a bonus that can sit in a city and give extra research, but are prone to assassination or defection.

11) SERENDIPITOUS ADVANCES -- Technology discovered "accidentally". Basically a random event that gives you a tech advance.

12) TECHS SHOULD BE HARDER TO RESEARCH -- It is unrealistic for a civ to have the ability to realistically research every tech in the game without help -- historically nobody has developed everything. Techs should have a higher cost relative to the number of research points that are expected to be produced by an empire than in previous games. Another poster says this feature takes away the option if isolationism.

13) BUDGET SCIENCE FROM TAX BUDGET- instead of the classic tax/science/luxuries system, count the science rate as taxes spent on science. Thus higher scientific spending has the same effect as high taxes- greater unhappiness, greater unemployment (if you're a Republican, at least).

14) "PROBLEM BASED" TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH- you tell your science advisors what problems or needs your society has, like more food or better defense in battle, and they research something along those lines, perhaps getting you granaries or advanced irrigation or shields. Combined with redundant techs, this is another way different civs can have comparable units but wildly different technologies and philosophies (since the two civs found different ways of increasing defense in battle, say).

15)TRICKLE-DOWN LIST OF RESEARCH- You have a list of technologies, ordered based on as soon as a certain tech was made available to you. 10-60% of your research points goes to the first topic, 10-30% goes to your second topic, 5-20% goes to your third topic on the list, etc. The degree of specificity depends on things like how many libraries and universities you have. When you discover a tech, new techs you can now research go to the bottom of the queue and wait to be moved up. You can pay a certain efficiency cost to take techs closer to the bottom and move them farther up on the list.

Section II: The Tech Tree (How do I get specific techs?)

20) LOTS OF TECHS -- Some people think we need lots, and I mean LOTS of techs. Others think that too many techs may be bad, because they would grow hard to differentiate. Another problem is that lots of techs would also mean lots of techs with no immediate help from them, aside from them being pre-requisites to other techs. Many of the tech suggestions below depend on this system.

21) MULTIPLE PREREQS -- More than just two should be possible. This suggestion is probably implicit in some of the more ambitious prereq schemes.

22) MULTIPLE PATHS TO A PARTICULAR ADVANCE -- Instead of having rigid prerequisites that demand that a civ follow a particular research path to get to a tech, allow several different ways to achieve a particular advance. There are several alternatives...

23) BOOLEAN PREREQS -- The prerequisites should be specified with Boolean logic, i.e. AND, OR, NOT. For example, the prerequisite for "Labor Union" might be "Capitalism" and "Assembly Line", because the workers band together naturally to fight for rights, OR "Communism" and "Mass Media", because the communist activists are able to convince large numbers of workers to bargain collectively. However, "Capitalism" and "Mass Media" wouldn't do anything to advance "Labor Unions" without the other techs. -- Labor Union [= (Capitalism AND Assembly Line) OR (Communism AND Mass Media).

24) PREREQUISITE POINTS -- In this suggestion, different technologies each contribute a certain point value to satisfying the prerequisite of a follow-on technology. For example, If you were interested in researching "Trench Warfare", you might need to gather 10 prereq points, where "Machine Guns" would give you 4, "Artillery" would give you 7, "Chemical Warfare" would give you 3, and "Conscription" would give you 3. Supporters of this concept argue that many of the other suggestions in this list can be incorporated into this new scheme (for example, DIPLOMATIC SYNNERGY can be implemented by giving you a prereq point for having diplomatic relations with a civ that already has the tech in question) and that it will allow multiple different strategies, making the new complexity worthwhile. Others oppose the system because it seems too complex.

25) PREREQUISITE EQUIVALENCE -- instead of having a hard and fast prerequisite, allow some of them to be 'equivalence classed'. For example, if you wanted to develop "Technocracy", you need the advance on "Microchip", as well as knowledge of three government types, such as "Democracy", "Fascism", and "Monarchy".

26) REDUNDANT TECHS -- have multiple different ways to achieve the same in-game effect (say, a 2-1-1 unit or a "makes one unhappy person content" building) with different technological paths (for example, either "Religious Fanaticism" or "Professional Standing Army" techs might allow the 2-1-1 unit over the 1-1-1 unit). This allows different civilizations to take a less "cookie-cutter" approach to technological development, since there are no longer an "vital" technologies. (Maybe this and MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGY are redundant, or at least related?)

27) MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGY -- Developing one technology might not make sense when another one already existed. "Green Industries" and "Advanced Toxic Waste Disposal" might be examples of this. Some posters seriously object to this idea.

28) RANDOM TECH TREE! - As long as there are multiple paths to each tech, there can be a probability that each path may or may not exist in a particular game. This adds to the excitement, and also the realism, since you can never quite be sure what your scientists will come up with until they come up with it. This is probably more easily accomplished if the REDUNDANT TECHS idea is implemented, since there is less likelihood of a civ being stranded without easy access to an important feature.

29) OFFSHOOT TECHS -- Minor technologies related to Major Technologies (i.e. Major techs are the ones we are familiar with) that are received as a random bonus for researching the Major Tech. They're not available every game, and only give a small bonus. Example: Researching "Warrior Code" might give you "Longbow" technology, which would give you better archers. Hypothetically these "minor techs" could be linked to specific civs to give them "character".

30) FORBID 'OUT-OF-ORDER' TECH -- If you don't have the prereqs for a tech, you shouldn't be able to use it, even if you trade for it, etc. If (through some quirk of fate) Columbus has plans for an A-Bomb, and traded them to the Native Americans he met, it is unlikely that they would have been able to nuke Europe, since they didn't have the infrastructure to make use of the idea. Suggested enhancement to this suggestion -- link things to "literacy", or possibly "era" (e.g. bronze-age tribe can't use Renaissance idea).

31) CONCEPTS vs. APPLICATIONS -- Instead of an "all techs are equivalent" way of looking at the world, break techs into "concepts" and "applications". A "concept" might be "Gunpowder", while an "application" might be "Musket" or "Tunnel Construction". The application techs would all have a concept tech as a prerequisite, and the concept techs only (mostly?) have other concepts as their prereqs. This way, a civ can be very advanced in general principles, or concentrate on developing known techniques. This might reflect the differences between invention and innovation.

32) RANDOMIZED APPLICATIONS -- Techs shouldn't always give you the same benefit. Some games, a specific tech might give you a particular unit, in others it might give you a building, etc. Or, after developing the technology, you have to pay money to actually develop each separate application of the technology, or at least pay a prototype fee. See 43.

33) FURTHER RESEARCH ON ONE TECH -- There should be more differentiation between "identical" techs. All of the major powers had "tanks" in World War II, but the designs of some countries were superior to those of others. If you could devote some research points to further "experimentation" with the technology "tank warfare" or "bows" after you've already received the advance, you might end up with bonuses to your tanks or archers.

34) MAKE TECH TREE REFLECT GAME SITUATION -- the current game situation should affect the tech tree. A land-locked civ is unlikely to develop "Navigation", and a civ with poor mineral resources is unlikely to develop "Advanced Mining".

35) SUPPORTING TECHS FOR OTHER IDEAS IN OTHER THREADS -- Some ideas in other threads give new abilities (such as specific types of specialist citizens) so it makes sense to have techs that bestow these abilities.

36) TECHNOLOGY GAIN BY USAGE- Perhaps if there are copper deposits near a city and they are worked for 10 turns, you get "Copper Working" (or perhaps a 10% bonus on the price of researching that per turn reached, to a maximum of a 50% discount?), and if you work a tin deposit for 10 turns after that, you get "Bronze Working."

37) TECHNOLOGY HORIZON- If idea 28 (RANDOM TECH TREE) is used, you should only be able to see "so far" down the tech tree to a horizon, as your wise men/scientists can only guess so much about future technologies (imagine how easy getting bananas will be with a human brain, says the ape.). This means you don't have to worry about an optimal path to certain crucial techs.

38) NECCESITY IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION- In Europe, countries were diverse and anything they could use to get ahead was applied, triggering fast growth in many technologies. The Chinese, on the other hand, while they developed many technologies they never had to apply them to things like weapons use because they did not need to. If the major/minor civ idea is not used, this could perhaps be used as a balancer against nations that quickly destroy everyone but themselves in their region of the world, like the Chinese- stagnation.

39)ENABLING TRIGGERS- Just as how you might get the Magellan's Expedition wonder by sailing around the world, you might get the tech "Organization" when you have 5 military units, or "University" when 40% of your population has access to libraries.

[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited June 25, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited June 25, 1999).]

posted June 17, 1999 19:12            

Currently existing advances are in quotes.

40) TECH ADVANCES TIED TO GAME FEATURES -- Features such as 'borders' should only be enables once the appropriate tech is discovered. See point 35 for an example.

41) RESOURCE LIMITATION LIFTING TECHS -- In SMAC there were some techs that you needed to research before you could gather more than 2 resources of each type. While an interesting idea, the implementation in SMAC was too limiting. The techs which lifted the limits were too indispensable, and came in too late, often choking off an empire until they could be found. Perhaps there should be a more gentle gradation over the ages? And should Social Engineering continue to play a role?

42) TECHS SHOULD HAVE SOME 'BASIC' BENEFIT -- Each tech should have some effect of the 'basic' parameters of a civ, the kind of things that are likely to be influenced by Social Engineering (e.g. "Trade" should benefit your Economy rating, and "Crop Rotation" should benefit your Growth).

43) AN OPTION FOR A LESS 'MECHANISTIC' WORLDVIEW -- Some people feel that Civ emphasis science and technology, not allowing for the possibility of a civilization that has a less mechanistic worldview, and focuses instead on other pursuits, like philosophy or psychology. Is this workable? Suggestions? Could this have happened, even if it didn't historically?

44) MORE EMPHASIS ON FOOD MAKING TECHS -- Plants cultivation, Farming, Irrigation, Genetic manipulation... see 41 for what purpose they would serve.

45) GREATER EMPHASIS ON THE ARTS -- The tech tree in general focuses on military hardware and hard science, leaving the Arts somewhat unaddressed (this suggestion probably needs to be fleshed out more). More than a few posters question whether this is a good suggestion.

46) MAKE ARTS ADVANCES 'SCORE BOOSTERS' -- Maybe Art and Culture advances should simply be score boosters (like "Future Tech") or one time benefits.

47) TECHNOLOGY SHOULD INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ENTERTAINERS -- Certain technologies should enhance the effectiveness of your "entertainer" specialists in the city screen (e.g. Television).

Section IV: Issues of Technology Cost.

50) HAVE THE NUMBER OF TECH POINTS REQUIRED FOR A TECH BE FIXED INSTEAD OF RELATIVE -- Pottery should not be just as hard to research as Nuclear Fission, even if you are actively researching them both in 1945. Basing the number of research points needed for a particular tech on the number of techs you already possess can lead to ridiculous situations like that, like in CivX. Instead, if using the SMAC chart, make all techs labeled as level one cost 50, level 3's cost 400, level 5 techs cost 1500, etc.

51) DIFFERENT COST FOR 'TRAILBLAZERS' AND 'FOLLOWERS' -- Civs who research a tech already discovered should get a bonus on the cost of researching it, since pioneering new technology is hard, while reproducing an already known advance is easier. The extent of the bonus might be based on civs you have diplomatic contact with, and the extent of that conflict.

52) LESS DETERMINISTIC RESEARCH PROGRESS -- Instead of just "100 Research Points gets you an advance" it should be "There is a number close to 100 Research Points that will give you the technology, here's our rough estimates for when we hit it". This way you can have a rough idea of when you will discover a new technology, but you can never be exactly sure because there is an element of uncertainty, just like science in the real world.

53) TECH SYNERGY -- you can research multiple techs simultaneously, and researching related techs provides synergistic effects, i.e. researching "Physics" and "Calculus" together would get you done faster than researching "Physics" and "Communism", since the results of one field are applicable to the other.

54) RESEARCH SYNERGY THROUGH DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS -- We should get bonuses to our technology development rate if we are on friendly diplomatic terms with other civs researching similar technology because of international science conferences, wider circulation technical journals, access to each other's research, etc.

55) TECH BLEED -- Scientific Advances should be able to "leak out" from high-tech civs to low-tech civs, giving the civ that lacks the technologies the high-tech civ has bonuses on researching it. The rate of leakage should be proportional to the age of the tech (If we drove up to a stone-age tribe they would probably realize the significance of our advanced "wheel" technology before we even got out of the car...) and also proportional to the level of diplomatic relations (if we constantly interact with another society, we are likely to be more familiar with their technology). This is quite similar to point 6.

56) REVERSE ENGINEERING -- Fighting and destroying or capturing enemy units with superior technology should aid in the discovery of that technology with bonuses on the tech cost.

57) BASIC THEORETICAL RESEARCH -- Have some research points devoted to "basic research" that isn't likely to produce any specific advances (i.e. won't give you a specific building or unit or something), but which enhance research in other areas (e.g. research in "Basic Physics" might enhance the speed at which you research "Lasers", "Nuclear Fission", and "Nuclear Fusion", but you could achieve those advances without doing the basic research, just at a higher cost. This would be a tradeoff -- Do I want Fission now, or do I want to invest a little more up front, and be sure of getting all three sooner in the long run, even though I wouldn't get any specific advance until later).

58) MAXIMUM RESEARCH RATE -- Have a maximum rate at which research can be accumulated. No amount of "prodding" will enable your scientists to research faster than some basic human limit (probably limited by communication in the real world). This could also be handled by the "efficiency" theory of tech of number 4 being applied to changes in the tax/science rate over the empire, giving efficiency penalties for straying from the accepted that would slowly decay.

59) MINOR NATION TECH BLEED- If the Major/Minor civilization concept is used, then perhaps there would be a special set of tech bleed rules for Minor civs to keep isolated Minor Nations from advancing far beyond the Stone Age (like the Native Americans) with no tech bleed and to keep Minor Nations in areas surrounded by tough, Major civ enemies have high rates of tech bleed (like Belgium).

60A) LESS DIRECTION SPEEDS RESEARCH- Scientists work better when not forced to work on one specific thing. Thus, letting techs be selected blindly that you don't have to speeds research slightly.

Section V: Science and it's relationship with Infrastructure and Society.

60) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILDINGS' -- Have buildings which enhance the scientific output of a city differentiated: You have your choice of a Physics Lab, a Biological Research Hospital, etc., which only add their bonus when the city is contributing to the appropriate kind of research.

61) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILDINGS' ALTERNATIVE- If the system described in 2 is used, when a new library is built, it can be dedicated to one of the five categories of science. When a university is built, one more discipline can be added. These disciplines get bonuses in research done at the city, in addition to the library and university's normal effect. Then, the bonus in research provided by other buildings (like Nuclear Plant: Normal Effect. Adds +50% to Math & Physics research, if the city has M&P as one of its specialties at the library or university. Research Hospital: Normal Effect, and same as Nuclear Plant except with Biology. Capitol: +100% to Philosophy. Etc.) only occurs if it has a library/university dedicated to that discipline.

62) DIFFERENT BUILDINGS HELP WITH DIFFERENT KINDS OF RESEARCH -- Barracks can conduct military research, temples can conduct religious/philosophical research, all independent of the normal science output (similar to the Biology Lab in SMAC- a set +2 Research/Turn, in a specific category of science. See idea #2).

63) HAVE GOVERNMENT/DIPLOMATIC CHOICES AFFECT TECH DEVELOPMENT -- Would a Fundamentalist government like to research "Genetic Engineering"? Link penalties on the costs of certain techs to social engineering, due to opposition from scientists.

64) TECH PRESERVATION -- If a civ doesn't work to maintain a technology (e.g. by building libraries) they should lose the tech. This can simulate the Dark Ages. Perhaps this can be a randomized global event (Dark Ages descend upon world!), similar to the "Loss of technology research at base x! Build a network node to prevent this!" except, say, every 10% of your population without a library loses you one tech.

65) LOCATION DEPENDENT RESEARCH LABS -- Research is done in labs and universities, and labs and universities have to actually exist somewhere. If you lose an important science city, you shouldn't just not get it's future research, you should be penalized research points, especially if your communications technologies aren't high enough to spread the work done there.

66) FACTION/CIVILIZATION SPECIFIC TECH TREES -- different cultures look at the world in different ways, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that they would follow different paths or discover different technologies in different orders. (concerns over accusations of unfairness and "racism" abound, not to mention game balancing...)

67) FUTURE TECHS ALLOW MINITURIZATION- Future techs currently don't do much. Instead, especially if the categories of research idea is used, have future techs count for a decrease in the cost of all improvements and related items in that category.

68) TECHNOLOGY VICTORY CONDITIONS: This probably shouldn't be in this summary, but there are several ideas on this. One of the classic victory conditions has been technology based- research to a certain level, and then build something. The general expectation has been that you, along with other civilizations willing to participate, build the UNS Unity, the logical predecessor to SMAC. First among proposals is that it cost much, much more than the Ascent to Transcendence in SMAC- it's a cooperative project, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. 3,000 resources on Chieftain up to 6,000 on King by increments of 1,000 sounds good, and then up to 10,000 on Deity in increments of 2,000 per level. Secondly, there should be more sense of drama and real danger of not winning in the final sequence. To accomplish this, the turmoil that engulfed Earth before the Unity launched should be put in- around the time that the technology to build the Unity is near, revolts and riots start happening more often, as do crazy terrorists burning down your buildings. Conquered nationalities should press even harder for independence, with constant revolts against their conquerors. As the Unity actually starts being built, things should get even worse, with paramilitary organizations like the Spartans and the Christian States of America springing up in revolting cities and leading them against you and the other remaining civs. More Minor Nations should go on terroristic and conquering streaks as well. The idea is for all the remaining major civs to band together against the chaos and finish the Unity before they perish. If you wait too long, eventually nuclear missiles (or even worse, nanotechnology) starts getting stolen from you and the rebels start launching nukes left and right. Once this happens, and enough nukes have been launched to have a nuclear winter, you still do not lose. You simply get to keep playing on the nuclear wasteland that is Earth. All of your Modern Age and some of your Industrial Age technology is lost, though it can be researched again at a much reduced cost since there are still books and stuff on the topic. By that point, the rebels stop attacking you, and you and your remaining 2 cities can rebuild and try and retake your old cities that long ago revolted against you, and bring civilization back to the point where you can try and build the Unity again (and go through another end-game rebels sequence).
Another idea along this line is that if you don't want to get the co-operative UNS Unity win, you can win solo by transcending on Earth, except instead of becoming part of Chiron's fungus, your civilization uploads itself into computers.

Section VI: Game Options set at the Beginning of the Game.

70) DIFFERENT TECH DIFFICULTY SETTINGS- There should be 2 or 3 difficulty levels of research systems, say "Novice Research," "Standard Research," and "Advanced Research." It's easier for beginners, and more realistic and challenging for veterans.

73) BLIND TECH -- People seem to either love or hate the blind research from SMAC.

74) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH -- research follow Blind Tech model up until Industrialization, after which the player can use the Directed model, emulating the superior control and direction that people have over scientific discovery with modern methods.

75) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH ALTERNATIVE -- Have a 'ratio' which controls how many techs you get to pick. When you first start, all of your tech choices are blind. Then after some time, you get to pick every 4th tech. Then every 3rd tech, etc., so you start with no control but eventually get complete control. Perhaps the changes from every 4th to every 3rd to every other be controlled by specific advances? (The
University: May pick every other tech from now on?)

76) DOWNLOADING TECHS -- Some would like it if Firaxis periodically expands the tech tree by posted new techs on the website to incorporate into the game (Could this be done without ruining play balance?)

Section VII: Things NOT to do.

80) HAVE OVERBROAD TECHS -- For example, "Industrialization" encompasses many things (technical, social, and economic), and should not be lumped into a single tech. This is assuming the current CivX system (under point 5's suggestion, it would be the exact opposite- you'd want broad techs with many facets).

81) SENSIBLE TECH/ADVANCE CORRELATION -- Certain advances were linked to techs that really didn't make sense, e.g. "Labor Union" and "Mechanized Infantry".

82) SCIENCE CITY IMPROVEMENTS MORE IMPORTANT FOR SCIENCE THAN ECONOMIC BUILDINGS -- Apparently in CtP, buildings which boost your economic output are more worthwhile for your research progress than Libraries and such. That's bad.

83) SPACING OF TECHS IN THE TREE -- Make sure that the techs are judiciously placed in the tree so we don't have too few in one era and too many in another. Try to keep it balanced (no jumps from Knights to Tanks, like in CivI).

84) AN UNHELPFUL SCIENCE ADVISOR- Traditionally, he's usually tossed a coin and told you to research that technology. A better advisor would be nice. The beta-testers can probably help you with that.

posted June 17, 1999 19:13            

Many of these techs are narrow enough that they would only be palatable as "minor techs" as described in the system in point 5. Also note that I mention some CivX, but not mentioning one doesn't mean it shouldn't go in- they're just offered as extras, to put the rest in context. These are supposed to be mainly the new ideas. In any case, grouped by rough categories (which might be the "fields" described under point 5):

Arts Techs so far:
Music - A dead end tech that adds +50% to the effectiveness of entertainers. So an entertainer gains an early boost of +100% with the discover of music and construction of a market place. Since music has been around since the beginning of civilization, many dispute the need to actually research it. This suggestion has been criticized strongly by many, since music has existed since the Stone Age.

History

Literature

Rhetoric

Sculpture

Psychology

Mathematics Techs:
Algebra- The lowest level math discovered.

Trigonometry

Calculus- Vital for physics research.

And computers, a subcategory of Math:
Programming -- the art/science of making computers do what you want.

Systems Analysis -- (what exactly would this do that can be modeled on a civ-wide scale?)

Computing Machine -- A mechanical or electrical device that demonstrates that arithmetic and logical tasks can be done by machines. Examples would be an adding machine or a punch-card sorter. This would be a pre-req for...

Stored Program Computer -- A device which maintains its instruction sequence in a dynamic storage medium (e.g. the DRAM in the computer you're using right now). Allows much more flexibility than a direct input computing machine.

The Transistor- The transistor is the basis for all modern computers. Integrated Circuits (ICs) use transistors to accomplish most of their functions. The Transistor is what made the "Information Age" possible without large vacuum tubes still ruling computing.

Vacuum Tubes - Among other things, can be used to build digital logic circuits. Vacuum Tubes were the basis for the first electronic computers. (This is an excellent candidate for some of the prereq ideas -- Transistors and Vacuum Tubes are mostly unrelated technologies that both allow computers, but the Transistor has other benefits. So the prereq for "Computers" might be "Computing Machine AND Vacuum Tubes OR Computing Machine AND Transistors", but you need "Transistor AND Computers" for Microprocessors.)

Semiconductors- Makes those microchips possible.

High Level Programming Languages -- Give the user an easier way to program computers.

Seed AI- A "baby" artificial intelligence that can learn and develop itself.

Engineering techs:
Simple Machines -Another very basic tech that would be discovered soon into Engineering research.

Road Building- perhaps not something you start out immediately with.

Masonry- As in CivX.

Ballistics

Architecture- Is this the same as "Construction?"

Canal-Building

Paper- Not really engineering, but vital to scholarly study.

Printing Press- Same as Paper.

Plumbing- A Pre-req to Sanitation, probably.

Clockwork

Hydraulics

Gunnery- early muskets, ar quebuses. The Death of the Knights.

Fortifications- Another more specific minor tech to add.

Electric Light -- This would probably be a minor tech in addition to electricity that improves the living standard of homes, is my guess.

Interchangeable parts- perhaps better than "machine tools?"

Ceramics- Usable in everything from shells to rockets.

Internal Combustion Engine -- A pre-req to "Automobile," perhaps.

Aerodynamics

Satellites- Let's see the whole map revealed, not just the enemy cities (like in CivI)!

Physics Techs so Far:

Electromagnetism- One important branch of classical physics.

Thermodynamics - Another one.

Optics- Yet another one.

Relativity - Perhaps the most important concept in modern physics. Good pre-req for nuclear power.

Quantum Theory

Nuclear Theory- as in CivX.

And Astronomy Techs, a subcategory of Physics:
Astrology- Is this the same as mysticism, or considered something developed after mysticism to allow astronomy?

Astrolabe

Orbital Mechanics- Very high level astronomy, traveling into space.

Chemistry Techs:
Periodic Table -- An important advance in chemistry. Realizing the "order" of chemical elements allowed discovery of new ones and prediction of their properties. Aided understanding of underlying theory of chemistry.

Industrial Chemistry -- A minor tech after chemistry that gives a slight bonus to factories.

Physical Chemistry

Organic Chemistry

Biology Techs:

Genetics/Inheritance Theory- Gregor Mendel style understanding of inheritance

Evolution- Perhaps it would also cause slightly less effective churches as a side effect.

DNA- enhanced genetic theory.

Genetic Engineering- As in CivX.

Botany

The Sub-category of Medicinal Techs:
Lens Grinding- A pre-req to Germ Theory?

Anatomy

Germ Theory- Diseases aren't caused by demons getting into your body after you sneeze.

Circulation of Blood- We don't keep on creating the stuff, it's the same stuff recycled over and over.

Surgery- cutting people up to make them healthy. In early years, mostly limited to amputations, etc

Antiseptics- Insures they don't die after the surgery's done, probably more important than Surgery itself (IMHO).

Physiology

Immunization

Antibiotics

X-Rays -Perhaps a physics tech as well?

Cryogenics- Perhaps increasing the effect of hospitals?

And Agricultural Techs:
Olive, Silk, and Tea Domestication- Early trade goods.

Artificial Fertilizers- Improve food production at the expense of money and industrial pollution?

Herbal Remedies- These have been around since the Stone Age. Not sure if you should need to research these.

Cash Crops -- farm goods which are grown primarily for export because they can command a high price, not because of their local food value. Coffee, cotton, and tobacco might be examples. They might allow you to turn excess food into money.

Crop Rotation -- Important agricultural concept. Improves farm productivity.

Mechanical Farming

Seed Drill

Cotton gin

Artificial selection

Economics Techs:
Currency- As in CivX.

Credit

Capital Markets -Using the minor nations idea, perhaps this could allow ruthless trade policies and imperialist economies.

Keynesian Economics -- The notion that government fiscal (i.e. taxes and spending) policy should be used to limit the effects of the business cycle: low spending during boom years, high spending during recession/depression.

Mercantilism- Running Imperialist Economies. Works great if the "minor nation" idea from other threads is included.

Venture Capitalism

Mercenary Warfare- Not sure if this should need to be researched, but buying armies is always nice...

Multinational Corporation

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Tourism

Metallurgical Techs:
Copper Smelting- A very very early tech.

(plus all the standard ones, like Bronze Working, Iron Working...)

Everything else suggested:
Paper
Standing Army
Bureaucracy
Potter's Wheel
Vertical Loom
the plow (early)/ Mouldboard plow (late, with cast iron advance)
Animal Domestication
Mass Communication
Submersibles
Wheelbarrow
Greek Fire
Chemical Warfare
international law
Deism
Diesel engine
epidemiology
heliocentrism
Enviornmentalism subcategory: hydrogeology, exotoxicology, bioremedition, extinction prevention, contaminated land reclamation
Oceanography
Geology
logic
photography
Telegraph
Pulse Communication
Concrete
Fireworks
lightbulbs
wooden barrel
hot air balloons
tanning
the bayonet
scientific method
telecommunications
textiles
Painting
Weaving
Horticulture
distillation
Brewing
drafting
Gearworks
Urbanization
Regulation
The Pump
Calendar
the chimney/fireplace
Aristocracy
Civilian Watch
Civilian Rights
Veteran's services
Social Reform
Women's Movement
Legalized Prostitution
Prohibition
Gun Control
Revolution
Training
Code of Conduct
Targeting
Military Algorithm
Mobilization
Martial Arts
Geography
Total War
Environmental Ethics
Cuisine
Entrepenurialism
Globalization
Humanism
Empiricism
Nuclear Disarmament
Art of War
Rationalization
The Enlightenment
Money Economy
Nuclear Deterrence
Nuclear Warfighting
Nuclear Defense

Futuristic Techs, possibly realistic:
Cloning- A growth bonus that perhaps also increases chance of revolts from angry religious people. No bonus in fundamentalist societies.

Organic industry- The ultimate in clean industries, it produces remarkably little pollution.

Arcologies- dramatically increases population limit, allows deep sea colonies, reduces pollution, and crowded people more prone to riot.

Deep core mining- This can be a city improvment or a terrain improvement that's a primitive thermal borehole, depending on how you look at it.

Orbital construction- pretty self-explanatory.

Fuel cells- Dramatic power possiblities here. Perhaps a bonus to ships and spaceships.

Commercial spacefaring- make $$$ for space exploration.

Lasers- Heck, we have them now, but for a usable SDI.

Wakeways- "trails" of fuel pods in space that primitive ramjets use to quickly speed from one planet to another

Artificial intelligence- While this is supposed to be discovered in SMAC, if you let the Seed AI grow long enough you may end up with an AI anyway. Be armed with an excuse for why this wasn't taken to Alpha Centauri if you do put this very realistic tech in.

Spaceport- More of an improvement than a tech, it allows, well the futuristic version of an airport.

Terraforming- IF we actually colonize the Moon, Mars in CivIII, this will be quite useful.

Eugenics- Similar to cloning, Hitler would have loved to have had eugenics. Growth and happiness bonus in facist SE's; cannot be researched by fundamentalist societies.

Metallic foam- Useful for ultralightweight construction.

Neural interface/neurohacking- So that Zakharov can be hooked up, and the intelligence of children can be improved in certain areas through surgery.

Nanotechnology- Vital for ultra-high speed computer, terraforming, and makes a fanastic destroy-the-world machine. Spies can plant nanorobots in societies to turn people's brains and bodies into goo and that ravage entire cities and lands.

Laser induced fusion- Powerful lasers, and a prerequsite to-

Fusion drive- What makes the Unity go, aside from the solar panels it also carries. A vital tech to allow the UNS Unity Wonder.

Antimatter/antimatter containment- Even in primitive form, allows extra power to go to space colonies and increases the speed of the Unity.

Hydroponics- Growing plants by putting them in nutrient-spiked water tanks. Useful out in space and on the moon.

Microgee agriculture- Another good way of growing stuff in space.

Nanomedicine- Another fine use of those nanorobots, good for cell repair and removing blockages.

Personality constructs- Perhaps with AI's, they can simulate human personalities as well, aside from their normal AI-self.

Mass drivers- Basically a gun in space that, er, drives mass into other things at high speeds.

Twin ion engine- A bad method for short range travel, good for intermediate distance; takes a long time to build up to speed, but useful for driving items across interplanetary distances with little fuel.

Futuristic Techs and realism questionable:
Warp drive- Considering that the Unity doesn't use one, this certainly can't be developed in CivIII's era and have a reasonable plot- not to mention the little problem of the physics. Actually, bigger than little.

Psychohistory- Not likely. Asimov was wrong, Large societies are much harder to predict than small ones.

Robopsychology- I personally doubt this will be a problem, but who knows?

Zero point energy- Energy from nowhere. A more plausible alternative may be a "space vacuum" where atoms floating out in space are sucked up and turned into energy.

Xenobiology (exobiology)- There may be microbes on Mars, and learning about them would be quite helpful.

ICE- "Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics," used to protect your mind, and thus your spies, from detection? Or just mental conditioning, which has been around for ages?

Eptification- A form of re-education.

Elite conscription- Recruiting the smartest and most educated people for the army/navy.

Phaser/Turbolaser- For those that like Star Trek and Star Wars.

Artificial gravity (antigravity)- It'd be really useful if we had it, though it may well be impossible. Discovered in SMAC, late game anyway.

Universal translator- Perhaps an AI that is devoted to learning all languages and translating them?

Scrith- What Larry Niven's Ringworld is built with. No, I don't know what it is either.

Hyperatomic motivator- A good weapon, making your enemies atoms jump around. Problem: Heisenberg's uncertainly principle.

Liquid metal (mimetic polyalloy)- A la T1000. Might actually be possible with nanorobots. Would create very strong tanks, planes, etc.

Positronic matrix- Uses decay of positrons to emulate a human brain. A different way of creating an AI. Rather hard to control.

Spindizzy generator- A way of using anti-gravity to put cities in flight with a different name.

Planckscale machines- Nanotechnology taken to the extreme, where work as done at lengths of down to 1x10^-30 m.

The ekumen- A form of interplanetary government.

Matter replication- Discovered in SMAC, so it's probably out.

Kinetic Weapons & Inertia Nullification- Highly mobile units with de-stabilizing weapons that send enemies spiraling out of control. Problem: Inertial Damping was a proposed tech for SMAC.

Parts of this are horribly wrong and need correcting? Great! Post now and tell us what your idea is to make this list better, which is our only goal here. Or go over to Firaxis and do the exact same thing.

-------------
SnowFire, Technology Thread-Manager.

posted June 18, 1999 12:17            

Do you guys say about chess, sure, it's a great game, but it's not realistic that a queen can move further than a king? Anyway, it seems to me that most of the suggestions made don't have an eye toward the game as a game.

I like the idea of gateway techs, or some other way to make sure some civ that doesn't have the railroad steals advanced flight. I don't like the way that Civ2 prevents you from following a hyper-technological path. If you try this, the AI will find ways to close the gap. So, the only strategy that makes sense in the modern era is to turn down the science and put that into other stuff, since you won't really benefit from the science.

Anything that adds random chance is, IMO, a bad idea. It would mess up MP, and mess up the various challenges, like the one city challenge.

Arts would be fun to add, you could have some kind of art tech, which would increase happiness early. Two benefits--1, it would open up the possibility of going republic without Oracle, and before MC and JSB. Right now, that's not really feasible, at deity anyway. I like anything that opens up different strategies. "Representational art" would, combined with a library, make one unhappy citizen content.

2nd, you could have a really cool movie, or perhaps have the disc store about 40 pieces of art, and when you discover this, it would randomly show a picture of one of them. Good fun, and a way to decrease Eurocentrism.

Serendipitous advances--yeah, it would be nice if you could add "discover tech" to the possibilities at goody huts;-)

I think that having different fields of research, with slider bars, would be a good way to get around alot of the issues raised here. If you're landlocked, you might get pretty late in the game, and not have navigation yet. Suddenly, you need galleons. Just move the slider bar on "water techs" to like 80%, and quickly go from seafaring to magnetism. Or maybe you've been very isolated, when suddenly you're not. You've got to discover gunpowder and conscription and tactics, and you've got to do it NOW.

The guys at Firaxis would have to be careful to keep this from disrupting the balance.

There was also the idea of having an "overarching" tech, that would facilitate research in a particular area. For example, you could research "modern warfare," with gunpowder as a prereq. You'd lose some time in researching it, but you'd make it up with a lower cost to research conscription, machine tools, tactics, etc. You'd have this edge for as long as you stayed in the tech path. Once you deviate to research refrigeration or whatever, you lose it.

The idea would be to allow the player the choice of ignoring an area of research, and still give him/her a chance to catch up.

But I like the idea of multiple areas of research better. Easier to conceive, and less open to manipulation.

posted June 18, 1999 12:42            

I suggest we group them, call them minor techs, and give them the property of "adds 10% per city" (assuming we stick with the metropolitan-area model.) But at the same time, since we're going to be boosting everything by "X" %, we need to "tame" the cities some other ways. Thoughts on that later? Anyway, here goes, trying to use techs suggested in the summary.

For example, food techs. Ancient has cultivation, renaissance has crop rotation, industrial has the combine (farm machines), and modern has plant genetics. In my suggested implementation, a civ with all 4 of these would turn a city with 20 "wheats" into 28. That's too much. Don't know how to fix it.

Anyway, science techs. Ancient, Confucianism. Medieval, movable type (not printing press). Industrial, public schools. Modern, Internet.

Money techs. Ancient, accounting. Medieval, the clock. Industrial, mercantilism. Modern, venture capitalists.

Military. Would reduce cost of each unit by 10%. For ancient units, you'd need to have discovered ballistics. From musketeers to tactics, ??? After tactics, the military academy.

posted June 19, 1999 12:58            

None of this is set in stone even in my swamp of a mind, but I've been fiddling with a tech tree incorporating this Advances & Apps concept, and I hope to have it posted (once only!) by the end of the weekend...

posted June 19, 1999 13:48            

Two points. Antimatter containment and ion engines are listed as questionable reality. The Ion engin is being tested in southern New Mexico. Antimatter containment works, but there is presently no commercial use for it that can't be done any other way.

posted June 19, 1999 13:57            

Ion :-
http://exosci.com/news/103.html

posted June 20, 1999 04:51            

Some responses:
Let's start with photography. This is a key invention because without it, radioactivity would likely never have been discovered. Remember that pitchblende samples were first found to emit "mystery rays" when it was found they could develop a photographic plate in a darkened chamber. Photography also allowed more detailed studies of motion, as in the series of photographs depicting a running horse, proving that all of a horse's feet do leave the ground while it runs. Not to mention its galvanizing effect on modern astronomy, prompting the discovery of Pluto and Edwin Hubble's discovery of an expanding universe. And also some incidental proofs of relativity, as photographs show the distortion of light in the sun's gravity well.

Let's see. Oh, yes, the pump. In my second list of suggestions I changed this to hydraulics to be more in line with the ancient status of the science. The force pump, a pair of cylinders whose pistons are driven by a horizontal bar on a fulcrum, may in fact date as far back as Ctesibius in 270 B.C. At Alexandria, he discovered the compressibility of air. Not to mention the legend of Heron, who may have discovered a primitive form of the steam engine in the first century A.D. As far as hydraulics goes, it would include machines such as Archimedes' screw, which Archimedes may or may not have invented, depending on which history you read.

I don't agree that heliocentrism is necessarily tied in with religion. Ancient scientists observing the heavens naturally came to the conclusion that the sun and moon and stars traveled around the Earth, and the only real problem was the planets, which traveled in odd patterns. But Ptolemy's mathematical construct, the "epicycle," explained these motions well enough to satisfy ancient astronomers (that the planets traveled on "circles upon circles"). Eventually, as we all know, the Catholic church went and accepted Aristotle and preached it as the truth. This had an enormous effect on history, but whether religion was tied up in geocentrism or not, heliocentrism would have been a modern advance. Scientists like Aristarchus had suggested heliocentrism, of course, but they had no proof, and astronomical observations were not accurate enough to judge one way or the other. Eventually, it was to be discovered that epicycles could not accurately explain the motion of the planets, but that would only come with new, sophisticated telescopes. And even then, heliocentrism remained in disfavor because it didn't explain the motion of the planets perfectly, any more than epicycles did. That was because the planets don't move in circles around the sun, but ellipses, with the sun at one focus. So, the progression from geocentrism to heliocentrism is a natural one without the interference of religion.

Let's see what else. Oh, yeah. Horticulture is a kind of precursor to agriculture. As such, it would probably be another pre-game advance available to all civilizations. I only mention it because in anthropological circles it's accepted that cultures that have not made the "agricultural leap" still practice horticulture. There is no irrigation, no plowing, and no fertilizer. There is also no crop rotation, though there is often a kind of "garden rotation," due to the fact that the gardens do not yield harvests on a regular basis. Just a suggestion. Modern horticulture is of course a hobby and nothing more, because agriculture has long since replaced it.

posted June 20, 1999 09:50            

Suppose that a vaguely realistic map is used, where earthquakes and volcanoes occur in specific regions. Geology could allow you to know risks of natural disasters automatically for all locations (as another map/overlay?), or implement it with an explorer somehow (I want to see the explorer given a bigger role in the late game).

posted June 21, 1999 01:12            

Anyway: "Sounds like you intend Heliocentricism as a precursor or replacement for the old game definition of Astronomy." I can't vouch for what I sounded like, but I didn't intend Heliocentrism as a replacement for anything. I would list it as an advance coming after Astronomy and Optics but before Theory of Gravity.

posted June 21, 1999 19:17            

To me, picking a technology from a list is not exactly realistic.

Instead, I suggest, we have the advisors tell the scientists what problems we have.
For example, we have a civilization of 100,000 people, and there is a food shortage problem. Then an advisor will tell you we have a food shortage problem, and you're scientists will suggest a solution to the problem, therefore, discovering a new form of hunting, eventually leading to building a granery, then a marketplace, etc.

This way, when the military advisor says our soldiers are dying in battle, or he may complain that we need a new way of attacking cities, scientists will then work on say a catapult to attack the city, or to help stop the soldiers dying in battle, the scientists invent sheilds, thus leading to Phalanx, etc.

posted June 21, 1999 20:20            

Perhaps the designers of Civ3 could avoid this problem by just being straightforward--instead of discovering ceremonial burial, you just learn about the power of the temple. And you don't discover currency, you just learn about marketplaces. IOW, you cut out the "middleman" of the tech, and go straight to what the tech *does.*

For myself, I don't really care. But there are a huge number of posts on this thread, and others, that would be eliminated if they did this.

And this ties in with what Icedan is talking about above. Add in my idea of having "minor techs" or "applications" or whatever you want to call it, that would add 10% to food, or happiness, or whatever. Then you could just make your advisors better. The military guy would say something like--"Sir, our attacking units are high quality, but we need better defense." That tells you to research feudalism, or later, gunpowder.

posted June 24, 1999 20:56            

Flavor Dave: Well, not all techs would give you something under the system in number 5. Many would be there strictly for flavor and as pre-reqs.

I updated the summaries to include Ecce Homo's idea on usage, my idea on Minor Nation tech bleed, Octopus's idea on Technology Horizons, Q Cubed's suggestion on the future techs, Spartan's idea on technology research, and various other odds and ends. I'll add more as soon as I can.

Again, I suggest you head over to Firaxis and post there.

posted June 25, 1999 08:03            

On the other hand, they did not invent these tings because they did not need them. Necessity is the mother of invention. In Euroasia, the competition and frequnet wars probably speeded the rate of invention. Resources are also important.

It would be nice if this could be implemented, somehow. An isolated nation would probably research millitary issues slowly, not because they can't, but because they don't have to. In Civ, all civs develop at roughly the same rate. This is not quite right...

posted June 27, 1999 21:13            

What I was saying leads to what NotLikeTea just said before, There's not much feeling of NOT knowing what its going to be like in the future. It SHOULD be unknown, unexpected, unexplored, etc, this is probably what makes going into space so exciting in the first place!

posted June 29, 1999 03:50            

ok each age has certain techs you need to actually have the age. i heard that the idea for the steam engine was invented in rome, but i know that the romans never developed the infrastructure to take advantage of that idea. here's what i'm proposing.

ok you have the tech tree and it has a bunch of techs that represent ideas. like ideas, about math, that leads to ideas about physics, that lead to ideas about gravity, to lead to ideas about relativity, however they are just ideas. there is no buildings or units associated with them. however their are ideas associated with them that could lead to application of these ideas. each one of these applications will have a building or a unit, or some special ability assoicated with it. these applications techs are all dead ends. the other prerequist would be the technology that defines the age. maybe have five technology enabler techs to each age. every single application in each age would have one of it's prerequists be one of the enabler techs. i'm not sure if the enabler techs should be dead ends or not, or if they shoul even be normal techs but something else.

here's an example of what i'm talking about.

you discover the optical theory it's an ancient discovery...but the ancients had no application for it...in the renasanse(sp?) they have an aplication for it. and that is the telescope observatory, then in the industrial ea, the have no applications for the theory, and in the modern era there is an application of the theory that lets lets you build a fiber optic computer network.

with the enabler techs it would be the underlying factors that created the era...like for the industrial era it could, the assembly line, division of labor, and a few other pertinant techs, techs that would tell why a car could be built in the 1900's and one why the ancinet aztects couldn't build a bmw even if they had the blueprints for it. maybe these wouldn't be techs in the traditional sense, becuase your scientists could discover them...but instead certain events would trigger them. like once you started generating a certain amount of trade AND you had had discovered paper, that the random event of the realization of capitalism would occur. capitalism in the industrial age would then underly applications of mathematics like banking and the stock market

it would definantly require multiple research areas...at least research into theory and applications

tell me if you understood that

korn469

posted June 29, 1999 07:05            

Take optics. We could discover it in the past, with no effects, and have it enabled in the future. But what is the point of the ancient discovery, then?

posted June 29, 1999 07:52            

i don't know how to format text so i can't do a diagram but lets start out in the industrial age

you would have a certain number of techs (lets say 5) that would enable industrial age applications of the tech you have and will discover.

so electricty is an idea tech in the industrial age, it is a prerequist for semiconductors and it has two indutrial age application, and one modern age application associated with it. the first industrial age application is light bulbs...this gives you a new kind of worker (like a technicain turning into an engineer in SMAC) you need the industrial age enabler tech invention for it to work. the other industrial age application is the telegraph. this increases trade among all of your cities you need the industrial age enabler tech transportation for it to work. in the modern era electricty has the modern age application electric power. this increases the amount of resources all of your workers produce when there is an electric power plant in the city. this requires the modern era enabler tech corporation for it to work.

note i'm not refering to civ2 techs i'm just giving an example. maybe instead of researching application techs as long as you have the enabler tech then the application works. so if you were a renessance era civ and you stole electricity unless you had the enabler techs invention, transportation, and corporation electricty wouldn't do anything for you. and maybe the enabler techs aren't researched but they are triggered. like if you have a certain amount of techs and the right circumstances then you get the enabler techs. so calling them techs is a little misleading.

so here's how it works you resarch idea techs normally, they have a tech tree and each idea tech has certain application tied to it. the application doesn't work unless you posses the enabler for each era. the enabler is like a tech but instead of being researched it is triggered by a certain set of events.

advantages...even if a backward civ stole some advanced ideas from your civ they wouldn't be able to translate these idea into weapons or whatever. and with the enablers being triggered it's add a bit of strategy trying to set up the right circumstances for the industrial revolution to happen, then just rbitraily discovering a tech that starts it. i think it'd be more fun this way.

korn469

posted June 29, 1999 13:28            

But let me suggest something that may actually go more with Radical Ideas. Let's have the application of theoretical techs be triggered by something other than other techs. One suggestion would be that a tech would lie dormant until the Inventor figures out the application. At any given time, you have up to a half dozen theoretical techs laying around, waiting to find apps. There is a random chance of your civ coming up with an inventor to discover the application of the theoretical tech. This Inventor would be more likely to pop out the more you devote to science, in ancient times more likely for every library you have, in later times, it would be universities that would boost the chance of the inventor. This could be kinda fun, too--"Thomas Edison finds a use for electricity, invents the light bulb." "Thomas Jefferson discovers a use for democratic theory, writes the Declaration of Independence." Even cooler, the inventor should "live" a while, and come up with more stuff. And, he should live in a particular city. That would be fun.

Another idea is to have necessity be the mother of invention. With navigation, you can build Magellan's, but you can't build caravels until you either have a city on another continent, or a trade route with another civ. (How to handle one continent worlds??). You have universities, but you can't build them until you have at least 5 libraries. You can't build explorers until you have MPE or know the location of an AI city. Stuff like that.

posted June 29, 1999 14:44            

Invention? Invention? What do you call the creation of the wheel??

I like the idea of necessity, as I mentioned earlier... Caravels wouldn't need two continents.. let's just say two coastal cities further apart than 30 squares. Why not use boats to go from the north to south of a continent? Just as handy as from one continent to the next...

posted June 29, 1999 17:11            

your idea though stated in different manner is on the same wavelength as mine.

my idea works kind of like how the gateway techs in the summary do but not exactly so if your having problems grasping this idea look at the gateway techs part of the summary

yeah you are missing my point because i'm having a hard time articulating myself. but your idea is virtually identical to mine. my idea is that technology by itself doesn't do anything for you. so if you turned on cheat mode and gave yourself every tech in the the tech tree, you would still only be able to build warriors.

the various applications associated with technology (by applications, i mean units, special ablities, buildings, wonders) wouldn't be triggered by just discovering the tech alone, you'd have to have an enabler. and enabler is like a technology but you can't research it. it happens, and it'd happen like in your example...if you build five libraries then the conditions are right for your people to get the renassanse enabler education

ok civ2 has ages, ancient, renassance, industrial, and modern...CTP has even more ages than that. what i'm trying to do with the enabler idea is represent the underlying reasons why we went from one age to another. I mean there is a reason that the renassance happned when it did, and that reason was more because of non technilogical factors than some inventor saying..."oh i created the renassance!" this explains why taking the blueprints for an AK-47 back in time to ancient rome wouldn't mean that they could suddenly outit all their legions withs Ak-47s

here's an other example (maybe it will be easier to understand than the one in my previous post) you just started the game and a goody hut is right beside of your city. you step into the the goody hut and you get the technology for bronze working. in civ2 this means that you now can build the colosses and the phalanx unit. under my system you wouldn't be ale to build the phalanx or the colosses. you would need an enabler to let you utilize bronze working capabilities. lets say when you built 5 military units you'd get the ancient era enabler organization that would then enable you to build a phalanx. this wouldn't enable the colosses, some other thing would enable it. that is an example of how it would work. in the ancient era maybe you wouldn't have enablers for strictly play balancing reasons. however to advance to the renassance age you'd have to set up the conditions it would take to start the renassance. maybe you'd have to switch out of despotism and build four libraries to trigger the renassance. these conditons would be partially random and partially "build 5 libraries to start the renassance". it's work like this you build 5 libraries then you'd have a good chance (%80) of the renassance starting. the enablers for the renassance might be like this

-reach a population of 50 in your empire, and be a monarchy: triggers one enabler(%80 chance of this happening)
-build five libraries: triggers another enabler (%80 chance of this happening)
-establish an embassy with one other civilization: triggers a different enabler (%80 chance of this happening)

it could be like a scenario victory condition except that would be what triggers the renassance era.

therefore enabler+tech=applications (which are units, buildings, wonders, special abilities)

this to some extent seperates techs from units. it gives you intermediate goals for your empire, (i wanna make the industrial revolution happen fast! how can i get 100 people in my empire and demacracy by 800A.D.?) it also means that even if you are the first one to discover a tech you aren't necesarily the one to put it to a good use. for example China invented gun powder in the early 1100's i think. but they didn't equip their armies with guns. because they didn't have the right mindset and factors to do this. the enablers would represent the midset and the infrastructure present that triggered the each age.

maybe that makes some sence. i'm still stiking to my main defense of this idea. it'd be alot of fun! especially when you played your first game and didn't know what triggers the modern age. (perhaps 5 cities size 10 or larger along with the knowlegde of electricity) and then to accidently stumble upon the combination of events thats triggers your modern age it'd be awsome. i'm also sure that techniques would develop for getting to each age as fast as possible. also a player who took advantage of infinite city sprawl and just built elephants would never trigger the renassance. so it'd strike more of a balance between war and development

korn469

posted June 30, 1999 15:03            

How about this-
You have one enabler for units, and one for buildings, in each age. Wonders never need enablers. The enabler is different and random each game.

Like this--you can only build warriors until you get organization. Organization might be triggered whenever you have 2 warriors in the same city. Or it might be when your military has 5 units total. At that point, you are enabled to build anything up to musketeers and dragoons.

You can't build anything except city walls and temples until you've discovered architecture, which is triggered by a total of 5 buildings, or if your science output per turn equals 20 beakers, etc. Then you can build everything up to banks and universities, which need the renaissance trigger/enabler. Etc.

Change the tech for dragoons to mounted war or something, and make leadership the tech for musketeers and dragoons and everything this side of MIs and tanks and howies, which need another tech to enable modern warfare. And leadership might be enabled by having killed a certain number of enemy units, or by a certain size army, or embassies with over half of AI civs. The random thing might be cool.

The renaissance and industrial and modern (may not want industrial to be its own age, tho) could be triggered by a combo of techs, or even a combo of 3 of 5 techs and a certain number of cities, or population, whatever.

I see what you mean about ICS, but at deity, I don't really know if this works against the AI that well anyway. HG is a necessity, and even with it, you kinda run out of steam after a while. I've had stronger games with modified perfectionism, where I have 10-12 great cities entering the industrial era, and then go to war after I've finished Hoover Dam.

That's the best I can do with your idea right now. I still think the other idea is better, that navigation means Magellan's but not caravels until something else happens. Higher learning doesn't allow universities unless XX happens also.

posted July 02, 1999 11:51            

Ahem!

The study of mineral deposits is called Mining Geology. Geomorphology (lit: shape of the earth) is just Physical Geography, ie glaciers make valleys.

My alibi isn't Miner for nothing!

Here endeth the lesson

posted July 08, 1999 15:10            

I think that you should learn theories and learn seperate applications of those theories, getting some free applications for each theory based on your current condition, like if you are at war and there is a war application you might learn it for free, while if you aren't at war you would have to seperately study each military application

what application you learned would be somewhat based on chance (you would get like one free application with each theory)

if you decide to study like war applications, then you could get past applications, applications from the most recent theory, or an application from a theory only one step up, and you would not know what one you would get (like in blind research

there would be certain ages where you could no longer get past applications (why learn longbows when you have guns)

some theories would require different sets or groups of sets previous theories and applications as prerequisites

some applications might have different sets and groups of sets of previous theories and applications in order to build them too

an example would be a frigate, you would have to have the theory of map making, navigation, metalurgy, magnetism, and have the application of cannons (following the old civ2 techs and applications)

I'm sure that some better set of theories and applications could be thought of

theories would do nothing but allow more applications

this is realistic to have them seperate because they where throughout history that is how it has been

it takes theories and previous ideas on how to use them to make up new ides on how to use those already thought up applications for a new application

there should always be a chance (maybe affected by how obvious that application is, which would be a factor based on how many historical civilizations thought of it) of getting a related when you learn a theory or application

even if you don't get the related application it should get easier and easier for you to learn it when you learn a related theory or application (this makes sense, as you delve more and more into one area your understanding of that area grows)

these additional applications would be the sudden flashes of insight mentioned earlier

this would handle the longbow and other advances that not every civilization had because in this idea as in real life what you learn is based on your need, if you ask for war application at the proper time and you have the proper prerequisites then the longbow will be one of the applications that you will be able to get, (which one would be figured by blind research, if you wanted to complicate it farther the whole process could be affect on some level by nearby resources, such as no ship applications (nor maybe certain theories) if you have no cities by the sea or longbow comes up more often if there are a lot of trees by you)

people seem to often misinterpret or ignore my ideas so if you don't understand something please post or email the question

posted July 09, 1999 12:27            

1) Tech advances, while not really accurate, do represent advances of society accurately enough. To take korn469's 3 examples:

-Reach pop of 50: Already in Civ you research quicker if you have higher pop
-Build 5 libraries: Libraries enable quicker research
-Establish embassy: If other civ has tech you can trade or demand it. Even if no new techs, trade routes enhance research,and there are players who demand research treaties for civ3.

Defeats strategy funnel: Instead I see a different style of strategy funnel developing here. The player will race for all the enablers before the AI -which is too stupid to understand what it should research 1st- gets them, especially once the player is familiar with the game. This might be avoidable if Firaxis had random enablers for certain things, but they'd have to be VERY creative AND do A LOT of extra research to find variants that sound reasonable to players. And for all that, there'd still be people unhappy with this system. So I vote NAY to enablers.

posted July 09, 1999 13:43            

How about a Tech accelerater option. If Civ A has twice the accumulated science as Civ B, then Civ B get's double science points for X turns. I use these numbers as an example, they would have to be tested of course. This would be nice for newbies who get far behind, but more importantly it would extend the games of experts by "cheating" on behalf of the AI to get them back in the race. I stop playing a lot of my games once it's academic that I've won, just systematic, boring mopping up remains. With this option, the game would still be interesting till the end.

Other ways to accomplish the same goal would be to grant the "technologically challenged CPU opponent" an Edison's Lab type of effect until it recovers, or for X turns. Or give them a few spies placed throught the world that have a better chance to steal advances.

Just some way to extend the challenge would be really great.
------------------
"BEEFCAKE, BEEFCAKE!!!

posted July 09, 1999 18:07            

the human couldn't be sure what they would get either and since you choose the applications you study based on need (and you study theories if you need more knowledge), if a human needs a war application he will get one the same way as the computer player

and since it is possible to get application from one level higher in theory, the computer player won't get stuck there, especially if they are programed properly on when to get military applications, different types of domestic applications, and theories

posted July 10, 1999 06:25            

Also, check IMagicGames:
http://www.imagicgames.com/Malkari

posted July 11, 1999 04:17            

How about a new tech called nationalism which follows monarchy or republic but precedes conscription. It was nationalism, afterall, which allowed Napoleon to "invent" national conscription.

Nationalism could make cities more difficult (or expensive) to bribe. It might also make
one unhappy person content.

posted July 12, 1999 12:25            

Examples of this in past Civ games include Navigation (in Civ2, your Trireme units have less chance of sinking if they end a turn away from shore), Nuclear Power (sea units get 1 extra movement point), Mysticism (doubles the effect of temples), and so on.

I'd like to see this expanded. The first one that comes to mind is Mass Production -- this should boost the effect of factories. Nuclear Power should not give extra movement points to Triremes, but it could (continue to) give a boost to Submarines and other high-tech sea units. Someone just suggested that Nationalism should give a small happiness boost -- good idea, but it might vary with one's government type. Crop rotation and certain other techs should give a bonus to food production -- you shouldn't have to go build "rotating farm" tile improvements or something equally silly; the farmers will just farm more efficiently.

(CTP takes this to an extreme, and lets you build Lawyer units which can actually be killed in battle. If you want to engage in economic warfare, that's great, but not by *building* and sending Lawyer *units* into enemy territory -- it should be done from a central menu, perhaps spending money and diverting resources into an economic warfare system.... So along with the tech of Economics (or equiv.) you'd get the ability to wage economic war, but this wouldn't mean building some silly unit.)

Automobiles should increase happiness. (They should do a lot of things, actually -- the introduction of the automobile triggered some of the biggest social changes of this century. But this implies that you can actually build the things, which ties back to the notion of acquiring techs well beyond one's current level of development....)

There should also be more of an obsolescence effect as well -- the other side of this coin. There's already a precedent for this, too -- Communism decreases the effect of Cathedrals in Civ2, and the Automobile increases pollution. Again, I'd like to see this expanded. Rationalism (call it what you like -- the Enlightenment, Secularization, etc.) should decrease the effect of religious institutions, before Communism does, but should increase research speed and lead (eventually) to non-religious means of happiness. Reliable Contraception (a good and useful tech, I agree -- unreliable alternatives have existed for thousands of years...) should decrease your growth rate (but increase productivity and happiness).

posted July 12, 1999 12:51            

As a note on contraception... this is where Civ and the "Real World" (tm) diverge. In Civ, all population is good population, the more the merrier! In the real world, over population is as much a problem, if not more, than underpopilation. In the real world, population grows without surplus food all the time.

posted July 14, 1999 07:14         

(I see in the summary someone has suggested "the Enlightenment" advance. It could be a prerequisite for Nationalism.)

from CIVILIZATIONS thread:

Zakalwe:
"Later, Nationalism should really open the can of worms. In my opinion, it would have to be a 'gateway' tech for many other advances, such as consription (levee en masse), but also carry a heavy burden. All those cities your civ captured during the last few centuries should be much harder to control, and the chances of them slipping off to form their own states should be increased."

me:
"I agree with the comment about Nationalism being a gateway tech. BTW, I proposed "the Great Revolution" WoW in WONDERS thread (civs can't switch to modern republic/democracy before it has been built, gives half military unit costs for 20 turns to the civ that builds it, ...). It could well be linked to Nationalism tech advance."

posted July 14, 1999 13:29            

One aspect of Alpha Centauri I think would be perfect for Civ III is the "datalinks"-style of presentation for technology. By that I mean that, whenever you discover a technology, a window will pop up that describes the technology and also begins playing a sound file. In fact, I think that the sound files would be a lot more entertaining for genuine technologies than for the imaginary technobabble found in SMAC.

Hire some competent actors to read the parts, so we hear Socrates for Philosophy, Sun Tzu for Tactics, St. Augustine for Theology, Solomon for Monarchy, Hammurabi for Code of Laws, Aristarchus or Ptolemy for Astronomy, and later on maybe Gustavus Adolphus for Gunpowder, Newton for Gravity, Marconi for Radio, Watt for the Steam Engine, Carnegie for Steel, Einstein or Oppenheimer for Atomic Theory, Jefferson for Democracy, Marx for Communism, Patton for Mobile Warfare. Maybe for Seafaring, have an excerpt from Homer's Odyssey, or the Iliad for Bronze Working.

Sure, there should be an option to switch off the tech blurbs, because after a while, hearing the same future tech blurb over and over is no fun. (I'm so sick of the Planet-voice saying "eternity lies ahead of us...") But it would make the first few games a lot more fun, and it would really help to rope in the first-time players.