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Author
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Topic: WONDERS (ver1.1): Hosted by EnochF
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EnochF
Civer
IP:  |
posted May 24, 1999 14:48
   
Go ahead and post here while I'm cooking up the summary of the previous thread. 'Kay?Oh, and, er, close ver 1.0, please, yin, or whoever's in charge... |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted May 24, 1999 15:43
Let's try this again. Here's the summary for the last thread.WORLD'S GREATEST: Ecce Homo
By paying double the shield cost, a civilization can build a World's Greatest city improvement, which grants a small bonus for that city (double effect, as in +100% gold for marketplaces, 4 citizens happy for temples, etc.) Another civilization can pay double that to outdo the current World's Greatest. A temple = 20 shields, the first World's Greatest = 40, someone else spends 80 to outdo them, etc.
Pythagoras: Suggests limited timespan for world's greatest.
kmj: Suggests "bidding" for world's greatest. Suggests world's greatest can go obsolete, i.e. World's Greatest Marketplace loses all bonuses upon discovery of Banking.
Glacier: World's tallest building or longest bridge/tunnel could provide extra gold or happiness. PROGRAMMABLE WONDERS: EnochF
A long series of flags allows players to redefine current wonders and create new ones to a much larger extent. Any Wonders dropped from the final release of the game might still persist as possible game effects to be used by scenario and modpack designers. WONDER DETERRENTS: Ufa
Random negative effects for more powerful wonders. Leonardo's might leave a percentage of units not upgraded. Lighthouse has a chance to burn out each turn.
EnochF: As an alternative to random effects, use constant negative effects instead. Increased pollution or corruption in the host city, slight happiness reduction for the civ, high maintenance cost in gold, or something along those lines. WONDERS OFF OPTION: kmj
An option in the game menu to disallow all wonder effects (and even the ability to build wonders). Alternatively, an option to "tone down" wonders, maybe decrease effects by half wherever possible.
Ufa: A "modifier" for wonders, like Civ II's modifier for barbarians
Mark_Everson: Disallow wonders that count as an improvement in every city. Wonders that never go obsolete are unbalancing.
Ecce Homo: Suggests Pyramid be city improvement, thus Great Pyramid = world's greatest DISALLOWING "RACES TO BUILD": meowser
No two cities in one civilization can build the same wonder at the same time.
CyberShy: No races allowed at all.
kmj: Races between two civilizations should be discouraged but not disallowed by the game. A message appears, such as, "Sir, the Egyptians are believed to be working on a similar project. Shall we continue?"
SnowFire: Disallowing switching production would severely handicap the AI. A player can always buy the wonder at the last minute, leaving the computer with a great deal of wasted production.
ErikNYC: Left-over production could be converted into trade, food, science, or some other variable related to the Wonder being constructed. EVOLVING WONDERS THROUGH THE AGES: Eggman
Wonder effects which change as the ages progress. Pyramids act as granary early on, then change to gold bonus. Olympic Games provide extra gold, cease to function in Renaissance, then increase happiness in later ages, etc. Aging wonders may incur higher and higher maintenance costs.
EnochF: All obsolete wonders generate tourism gold.
SnowFire: Aging wonders should not incur maintenance costs simply because they are obsolete. However, maintenance costs for certain Wonders may be feasible.
EdCase: When a Wonder goes obsolete, adds 10% to income of the city.
Depp: The game's more fun when Wonders never go obsolete. LAND ENGINEERING WONDERS: Diodorus
The Great Canal, for example, requiring explosives, modern engineers, allows trade routes. The Polders may reclaim land from the sea. A Great Wall which actually acts as a physical wall along the civ's borders.
Ecce Homo: Canals, bridges, walls could be city improvements. The World's Greatest Canal could have effects resembling Great Canal.
kmj: Land engineering Wonders are limited by the surrounding terrain, no Great Canal by water RE-BUILDABLE WONDERS: meowser
Only if two rival civs are building the same wonder, the second civ to complete the wonder receives a "compensation" bonus of happiness or gold. The first civ receives the standard wonder effect.
Fugi the Great: Civs can build the same Wonder and call it something different. NATURAL WONDERS: CyberShy
Effects are conferred upon a civilization simply by having the wonder in its territory.
Taedott: Natural wonders are a resource, no benefits unless "improved."
meowser: Natural wonders appear on Earth map, or randomized on map like SMAC geographical features. Size: 1 tile, offer resource bonus, can be "improved" to provide tourism. VISIBLE WONDERS: EnochF
Certain Wonders would appear in the city radius as impressive graphics. They would not confer any bonus to the worker on that square.
meowser: Visible wonders should be vulnerable to pillage (without direct assault on the city).
Ecce Homo: All Wonders should be visible. If it's not visible, it's not a Wonder (Women's Suffrage, Internet, Emancipation Act are thus disallowed) "CULTURE" PARTLY DEFINED BY WONDERS: Trachmyr
Part of a larger system suggested in other forums. The Wonders a player builds help define a new game element called "culture," which may affect a civilization's war readiness, science, economy, government, even graphical representation on screen. A fairly radical reordering of traditional Civ. Bears resemblance to "social engineering" as found in SMAC.
Darkstarr: Special Projects could be mechanisms for adjusting social engineering. CULTURAL WONDERS: meowser
Certain Wonders are only constructible by certain civs. Which civ can build which Wonder may be randomized at the beginning of the game.
kmj: Disagrees with cultural wonders, warns against "factions" rather than civilizations.
(Many disagreements) UNCERTAINTY OF WONDER EFFECTS: CyberShy
Effects of wonders should not be predefined. Effects of the Wonder should only become clear to the builder X number of years after it is built. GRADUAL WONDER OBSOLESCENCE: Zorloc
Wonders should not cease all effects on obsolescence, but gradually "phase out" over a few turns.
Zakalwe: Suggests something similar for captured wonders. Effects do not take effect immediately. COOPERATIVE WONDER BUILDING: meowser
Certain limited Wonders could be jointly built by a conglomeration of nations. United Nations is an obvious choice. SHARED WONDERS EFFECTS IN ALLIANCE: meowser
Also suggested in the Diplomacy list. All civs allied with each other receive the effects of each other's Wonders.
(Several agree) WONDER CATEGORIES: Ecce Homo
Certain Wonders are not dependent upon shields (resources) to be built. Scientific Wonders built by beakers, Economic Wonders built by gold. WONDERS WITH UNIVERSAL BENEFITS: Ecce Homo
Growing out of Sieve Too's Internet Wonder. Many wonders provide benefits to all civs, i.e. the Olympic Games open to all who choose to participate, Wormhole Sensor, Apollo, Manhattan, etc.
willko: Disagrees. Wonders should have localizable benefits to the city they are built in (e.g., Lighthouse only functions at X distance maximum). Any wonder with a "universal" benefit should have a separate "non-universal" benefit, i.e. Manhattan Project also grants +25% science. WONDERS AS A CIVILIZATION-WIDE PROJECT: meowser
Wonders are not built on the level of the city at all. Instead of being a city project, they are built by the entire civilization, using X% of total production or some such thing. Wonders thus do not appear in cities but in a special "wonder screen."
Fugi the Great: Wonders built by engineers or terraformers rather than X% of production. Increase costs of Wonders. NAME YOUR OWN WONDER: kmj
Hoover Dam may be called Aswan or Three Gorges or London Dam. Forbidden City may be called Imperial Palace, Throne Hall of Persepolis, Palace of Versailles or Atlanta Palace. The Agency may be called FBI, CIA, KGB, KLA or KMJ Killer Squad.
Trachmyr: The game should suggest a few key names. LANDSCAPE LIMITED WONDERS: kmj
Lighthouse only in coastal city, Hoover Dam requires a river. Only applies to certain Wonders. SMALL WONDERS: willko
Suggests a huge number of wonders (rather than Wonders) with small effects, usually increased trade. Examples: Space Needle, Leaning Tower, etc. Rather than huge Wonders with sweeping effects like Pyramids, have countless small wonders with tiny, localized effects. INTERNET WONDER: Sieve Too
A suggestion that provoked a huge response of support. The Internet wonder would provide benefits to not only the host civilization, but all civilizations with the Computers advance. Sparked the discussion about "universal" wonders.
anachron: Internet should be a technological advance, not a Wonder. HUMAN GENOME PROJECT: anachron
Should have military ramifications, such as the ability to infect an enemy city with genetically engineered virus and start an epidemic. SEVEN WONDERS PER AGE: mrtemba
Every age should have exactly seven Wonders. SPECIAL PROJECTS: Darkstarr
"National Special Projects" is the general category, of which Wonders are a subset. Wonders are unique NSP's, but certain NSP's would be rebuildable. Certain Wonders could enable the construction of other NSP's. DELAYED AVAILABILITY: Ufa
Merely having researched the appropriate technology does not immediately allow the construction of the Wonder associated with that technology. There is a cumulative chance each turn that someone will "think up" the Wonder, making it available for your civ to build. Next up, the complete list of Suggested Wonders. |
wheathin
Civer
IP: |
posted May 24, 1999 16:29
Unique Wonders
To mis-paraphrase Highlander:"Why must there be only one?" Wonders should only be those things that are not reproducible, i.e. things that either really have an advantage to the first person to build them, or, similarly, things that when built by one Civ PREVENT their construction by another. Everything else should go into a category of Improvements that can be built by all civs, but that have civ-wide effects and can be built in only one city. Thus, there are plenty of prestige benefits to completing a circumnavigation of the earth, or being the First to land on the moon, but there is no reason that someone else can't do it as well. Perhaps a solution is to allow some of these single-city improvements to funciton as mini-wonders for the first civ to build them until another civ builds one of them. Then, the mini-Wonder would function as just like the rest of them. If reputation/regard/ego is important, then a civ could continue to reap a small lasting 'national pride' benefit from completing the first one. (i.e. Russia still taking pride in space accomplishments, etc...) wheathin |
J.DeMobray
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 02:41
Just a few quick thoughts regarding "Natural Wonders":1) Since no one is suggesting ludicrous idea of going out and telling your Engineers; 'Yeah, this looks like a good place to build the Grand Canyong, lets go for it.', I imagine that the idea is that these Wonders should be randomly seeded on the map.
People, please. Didn't CTP teach us anything? I know that I personally have terrible luck with starting locations. Ask me sometime about the joy of starting on a fifteen square peninsula connected to the South Pole.
Everyone who has crusaded against 'rich get richer' type Wonders should automatically be against randomly seeded "Natural" Wonders. It seems obvious to me that the civ with the largest territory would naturally get more "Nature." 2) Besides look pretty on postcards and corporate logos, what exactly do you propose that Mt. Fugi do? How about Mt. Everest? Every turn have a % chance to subtract 1 from the population of the closest city (Crazy mountaineers and extreme sports types?) 3) Isn't "Natural Wonders" some kind of crappy gift / useless junk that you would never buy yourself style store in Shopping Malls the world over?
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J.DeMobray
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 02:55
Er. . . Grand Canyon, that is. I hope that was obvious but I'm still quite humiliated. |
Atahualpa
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 04:52
Sorry, I am new to this thread. My wonder suggestion would be a moonbase wonder. This wonder would create a base on the moon. You then could colonize the moon ala Colonization (maybe fighting against marsians or moonians).ATa |
Bird
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 12:27
I don't want to start a debate about the relative strengths of CIV II's existing wonders, but the Eiffel Tower's effects should be addressed. No one ever builds it unless they have nothing else to do, and it has no use in MP. My suggestion is that no civ, AI or human, can sneak attack the civ that has Eiffel Tower. It must declare war first, and thus be subject to the first attack. IMO, this adds real juice to the wonder, but does not make it game decisive. |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 12:54
Okay, okay.LIST OF NEW SUGGESTED WONDERS:
Abu Simbel
Admiral Nelson's Fleet: increased ship strength/movement, maybe
Alaskan Oil Pipeline
Alfred Nobel's Foundation
The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest): boost to science
Angel Falls
Angkor Wat
Aristotle's Encyclopedia of Knowledge: boost to ancient science, but gradually declines to become a hindrance to science later on; eventually goes obsolete with Heliocentrism
The Aswan Dam
The Aztec Temple in Tenochtitlan
Banaue Rice Terraces
The Bay of Fundy
Borobudur Temple
Carnegie Steel Corporation: boost to production, I assume
The Channel Tunnel: connects two cities (must be constructed between two civilizations, maybe?)
The Clock Tower (Big Ben)
The CN Tower
The Colosseum
Diderot's Encyclopedia: science
Drugs
Empire State Building
Fedreal Bureau of Investigation: veteran spies, effects of spy in every city, better protection vs. rival spies/diplomats/corporate branches, etc.
Francis Bacon's Royal Society: science
The Gateway Arch
The Grand Canyon
The Great Barrier Reef
The Great Canal
Great General Staff (Gro฿er Generalstab)
Ibn Battuta's Travels
Igua็๚ Falls
The Iliad: double movement rate of settlers and clerics
Imperial Navy Shipyard
Itaip๚ Dam
The Kaaba: happiness
King Asoka's Edict
KGB: same as FBI
Krakatoa Island
The Kremlin
The Leaning Tower
Lucasfilm
Machu Pichu
The Marianas Trench: underwater natural wonder
Mars Colony
The Mausoleum
The Mayan Temples of Mikal
Mines of Potosi
The Moai Statues
Mont-Saint-Michel
Mt. Everest
Mt. Fuji
Mt. Kilimanjaro
Mt. Rushmore
Niagara Falls
The Olympic Games: happiness wonder, buildable in early ages, goes obsolete in renaissance then "turns on" again in modern times
Paricutin Volcano
The Parthenon: happiness
Petra
The Petronas Towers
The Polders: reclaiming land from the sea
Potala
The Queen's Dominion
Red Square
St. Basil's Cathedral
St. Peter's Basilica
SDI
The Shwedagon Pagoda
Statue of Zeus
Statue of Cristo Redentor: happiness
Stupa of Wild Goose
Sultan's Forge: boost to gunpowder units/cannons
Sydney Opera House
Taj Mahal
Temple of Artemis
Temple of the Inscriptions
Tennessee Valley Authority: increased public works, maybe...
Three Gorges Dam
The Throne Hall of Persepolis
Trans-Siberian Railroad
Tycho Brahe's Observatory (Uranienborg): science
Victoria Falls
Ziggurat at Ur
[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited May 25, 1999).] |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 13:17
Here's a radical idea I just thought up.If your Great Library is ever captured, your civilization is in danger of losing all the technologies it provided! Or alternately, your civ will lose as many of its most advanced technologies as the Library provided. Existing city improvements and units based on those technologies will cost twice as much to maintain, though they will not disappear. I mean, Civ is a game where Dark Ages never happen. Until now... |
monolith94
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 13:27
Sacreu bleu! STILL no Potala as a wonder! I can hardly believe my eyes!------------------
"Love your enemy, for he teaches you patience!"
-Dalai Lama
Read "The Third Eye" - T. Lobsang Rampa |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 13:55
Well, pardonnez moi. I thought it was a typo. (What is it? Sounds like a new low-fat butter substitute.) |
kmj
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 15:25
Seems like nobody has brought up the topic of when wonders go obselete, so I figure I'll mention it. Please, make every effort to make sure that wonders go obselete at a reasonable place. Also, I hate how in CtP 6 wonders go obselete with the same advance. Each advance should make no more than one wonder obselete, unless there is good justification. Of course, that's just my opinion.
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Sieve Too
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 15:52
Bird, I like you idea for Eiffel Tower. I would add that you should limit so great a power since the U.N. and GW Wonders just force peace which can then be broken. Instead of just no sneak attacks, how about the ET civ gaining an unbreakable alliance with every civ? Of course, the ET civ could break the alliance with no reputation hit, and afterwards the ET Wonder would have no effect on the other civ.While no one could sneak attack the civ with ET, Spies could still steal techs and cities could still be bribed. Also, ZOC would be eliminated. The ET civ would thus have the nuisance of AI units wandering around its territory, sitting on its roads, and building cities in inconvenient locations. Even still, it would be quite a powerful wonder. |
Bird
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 17:04
Sieve Too: WOW, you really want to juice it up. I think that's a game breaker, however, unless they make the AI REALLY good. You would never have to fight two wars at once and you could always park your offensive force outside the enemy civ's cities until ready to attack without fear of a preemptive strike. IMO, that's just too much of an advantage.If my suggestion doesn't seem strong enough, how about precluding an attack for 2 turns, rather than one? |
monolith94
Civer
IP: |
posted May 25, 1999 17:22
Ah, good, now theres the Potala!------------------
"Love your enemy, for he teaches you patience!"
-Dalai Lama
Read "The Third Eye" - T. Lobsang Rampa |
Stefu
Civer
IP: |
posted May 26, 1999 06:39
You forgot Motherland Statue! |
Stefu
Civer
IP: |
posted May 26, 1999 07:30
How about spy option of Destroy Wonder? They usually never get destroyed anyway, as you never have big fights about cities that have built them. Destroy Wonder is, of course, quite expensive, and destroying one of the great achievements of humanity is certainly considered to be atrocity. |
NotLikeTea
Civer
IP: |
posted May 26, 1999 07:38
Little wonder that never was.The Soviet Union was planning on building the "Grand Palace of the Soviet" or somesuch.. really cool looking building, biggest on earth, lots of spires, towers, etc. It was never built, since the place they cleared for it (they dinamited a cathedral) was too swampy to support it. The cahedral was rebuild after the Union fell, I believe. This could be somethign interesting, perehaps giving diplomatic bonuses for relations with other communist nations. A real cold war wonder... |
Ecce Homo
Civer
IP: |
posted May 27, 1999 17:18
NotLikeTea...
This is an excellent opportunity to apply the "Greatest in the World" concept. The World's Greatest Palace would be possible to build throughout the whole game. (Not by democracies.) It would give the owner more respect and kill corruption.By the way, Hitler also projected an enormous palace in Berlin. As the city was bombed to pieces, he comforted himself that he would not have to clear the land. |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted May 27, 1999 17:33
For some reason, the concept of World's Greatest Palace had never occurred to me... that would be an enormous help in early games in despotism, tyranny or monarchy... |
Mo
Civer
IP: |
posted May 27, 1999 17:42
If a city which has a wonder in it is destroyed the wonder should remain in one of the city squares. If another civ then builds a city near the wonder they gain part of its effects. To gain all of its effects they should have to spend money or minerals to repair it. |
MBD
Junior Civer
IP: |
posted May 27, 1999 17:55
Some random thoughts:I wonder if every civization that built a wonder of the world knew it would be a wonder while they were building it? All wonders should be city-based. If it's important enough to be a wonder, then people are going to want to be nearby. It seems far-fetched to say you're building something like the Grand Canyon in one of your cities, though. Along the lines of the Hollywood wonder in CtP, what about a Wall Street wonder, granting a commerce bonus? |
ml_4da3
Junior Civer
IP: |
posted May 27, 1999 19:10
It is quite natural for ships to sail on both rivers and the sea. But it is only some ships, which both sail on the ocean and rivers or just rivers or just the ocean.
Most oceanic ships cannot sail in shallow waters and very small ships cannot sail the ocean very well. The engineers should be able to modify existing rivers too, that should be less expensive in resources than building a brand new canal. This could be very useful, and it should be a very expensive option. Maybe a new Wonder would be good to introduce here. |
Buffalo
Junior Civer
IP: |
posted May 28, 1999 19:55
Here's a thought......How about if CivIII had a wonder called "Area 51." This wonder would allow the owner a "POSSIBLE" tech advance every few turns-similar to CTP's Internet wonder. However this wonder would allow the owner to between 1 and 5 tech. advances until the end of the game. This 'boost' in research would be because of the reverse engineering of ALIEN SPACE CRAFTS....... |
Stefu
Civer
IP: |
posted May 29, 1999 06:11
How about Nakamatsu's Workshop? Nakamatsu is japanese inventor who has invented over 3,000 thingies over the years. That is 3 times more than one in second place, Thomas Edison with about 1,000 inventions.
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frankdog
Civer
IP: |
posted May 31, 1999 13:56
The TIME TUNNEL. I was watching a rerun of this 60's TV show yesterday. They actually sent a guy with a machine gun back to the battle of Troy! None of that "non-involvement" attitute of Star Trek. How many times have you wished you could send back some armour to about 2000 BC to and stop the Zulus before they get started! Perhaps this isn't the best idea for a wonder, it would change the game too much... but it was fantasy of mine yesterday as the Zulus were thrashing me.------------------
Regards, Doug Moyer (frankdog)
ICQ #13971149
http://www.polarcom.com/~dmoyer
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Q Cubed
Civer
IP: |
posted May 31, 1999 21:26
My suggestion in the concept of "World's Greatest"
How about not havign a specific amount of time when it's effective, but have it effective until another city builds a "World's Greatest" after it?
i.e., Tokyo (Japan) World's Tallest Building would be effective from 1921-1953, because in 1953, Seoul (Korea) built World's Tallest Building.But, not have the double cost...have it graded. If they want the building to be greater, all they'd have to do is add 10% to the cost...but, to have it last even longer, they could add subsequent 10% increases, so as to beat it would be more expensive, etc.
i.e., Tokyo=100. Seoul=110+. If Seoul paid 110, next city (Atlanta-US) would pay 121+. If Seoul paid 150, Atlanta would pay 165+.
======
As for world wonders. etc:
I like the idea of two catergories:
Wonders (Only built by one nation, can't be rebuilt) and Secret Projects (can be rebuilt, built by multiple nations)
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Also, a lot of the wonders listed above could be considered local wonders, these could have small effects:
Abu Simbel
Alfred Nobel's Foundation
The Almagest (Ptolemy's Almagest)
The Great Canal
The Iliad
Imperial Navy Shipyard
The Kaaba
King Asoka's Edict
The Kremlin
The Leaning Tower
Machu Pichu
The Mausoleum
Mines of Potosi
The Moai Statues
Potala
Red Square
The Shwedagon Pagoda
Stupa of Wild Goose
Sultan's Forge: boost to gunpowder units/cannons
Tennessee Valley Authority
Ziggurat at Ur
Taj Mahal
The Throne Hall of Persepolis
Banaue Rice Terraces
Great General Staff (Gro฿er Generalstab)
Admiral Nelson's Fleet
Alaskan Oil Pipeline
Diderot's Encyclopedia
Area 51
Aristotle's Encyclopedia of Knowledge
Sydney Opera House
Francis Bacon's Royal Society
======
Here is my suggested list:
() denotes catergory, so it would be Greatest Temple, Greatest Cathedral, etc., and each one counts as a separate greatest.
[] denotes the effect of the thing.
{} denotes names automatically given, or names that can be given to it.
/\ denotes limitations World's Greatest, small effects only applying to host city
Tallest Building [+trade]
Longest Bridge [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel, river\
Longest Tunnel [+trade] /must be built between cities across channel (~Chunnel), river, mountain, hill\
Greatest (Places of Worship (temple, cathedral)) [+happiness +trade]
Greatest (Places of Trade (marketplace, bank, stock exchange, supermarket)) [+trade]
Best (Places of Education (university, library, academy)) [+science]
Best Superhighways [+production *easier travel between cities]
Largest Harbor [+production +food +trade] /must be built in cities with access to inland seas or oceans\
Busiest Airport [+food +production +trade *easier travel between cities such as multiple flights from airports to this city]
Busiest Seaport [+food +production +trade] /must be built in cities with access to ocean\
Best Hospital [+science +happiness]
Best (Factories) [+production +trade +science]
Best Arcologies [+trade +science +food +production] /must be built in cities with all city radii squares filled, or cities larger than 21 people\
Best (Entertainment Complexes (Stadium, Holotheaters, Movie Palaces)) [+trade +happiness]
Largest Corporation [+trade +science +production +energy]
Greatest Clock Tower [+trade +production]
------
Landmarks, randomly seeded by the fractal map generator; confers bonuses to all tiles within a city radius
Big Waterfalls {goes by Niagara, Angel, etc.} [+energy +trade +production]
Big Mountains {Kilimanjaro, McKinley, K2, etc.} [+energy +trade -population]
Big Canyons, Trenches {Grand Canyon, Great Rift Valley, Marianas Trench, etc.} [+energy +trade]
Big Volcanos {Krakatoa, Pinatubo, etc.} [+energy +production -population]
Big Reefs {Great Barrier Reef, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
Big Forests {Schwarzwald, etc.} [+trade +science +production]
Big Jungles {Amazon Rain Forest, the Congo Rain Forest, etc.} [+trade +science +food +production]
Big Deserts {Sahara, etc.} [+trade +science -population]
Big Inland Freshwater Seas {Great Lakes, Lake Victoria, etc.} [+trade +science +food]
Big Inland Saltwater Seas {Caspian Sea, Great Salt Lake, etc.} [+trade +science]
------
Wonders, cannot be rebuilt; delayed construction period if first to build it, no delay period if someone is already building it; can be renamed; helps determine culture, determined also by culture; dependent upon geography location; free maintainance; all can be named differently
[Increases Happiness regardless of distance to capital]
{J.S. Bach's} Cathedral
Hanging Gardens /must be built within 2 squares of water\
{Confucious} Academy [Acts as a Granary in each city]
Stonehenge
Pyramids [Doubles effectiveness of Temples, Cathedrals; Doubles tithes]
{Michelangelo's, Hagia Sophia} Cathedral
Oracle [Eliminates Crime/Corruption/Waste/Inefficiency]
Chichen Itza [Reduces military readiness costs]
Sphinx [Increases trade]
The Labyrinth
Global EBank [Increases trade, Opens embassies in other nations]
{Marco Polo's} Expedition [Opens embassies in other nations, Prevents others from attacking first]
The United Nations /Must be a cooperative effort from at least three nations\ [Increases trade over water, Increases ship movement]
{Magellan's} Expedition /Must be built in a city with access to an ocean\
{East India Company} /Must be built in a city with access to an ocean\ [Increases science, eliminates conversion]
{Gutenburg Bible} [Increases Science Output]
{Copernicus', Galileo's, Tycho's} Observatory
{Isaac Newton's} College [Frees slaves, causes freed slaves in enemy civs to be unhappy]
Emancipation Act /Can only be built in a republic, democracy\ [Eliminates maintinence]
{Adam Smith's Trading Company} [Two discoveries immediate; thereafter, 10 free advances per age on average]
{Darwin's} Voyage /Must be built in a city with access to an ocean\ [Increases Gold in host city]
Colossus [Increases defense in every city, Prevents others from attacking first]
Great Wall [Eliminates all Nuclear weaponry]
Nanite Defuser [Ends threat of global disaster]
Gaia Controller [Allows construction of EcoRangers, destroys top three pollution cities]
Eden Project [Government/Social Engineering Choice switchovers immediate]
{Statue of Liberty, Motherland Calls, Gateway Arch} [Acts as a power plant in each city on the same continent, increases production]
{Hoover, Aswan High, Three Gorges, Itaip๚} Dam /Must be built on a river tile, causes an inland sea to form behind it\
Singularity Inductor [Any advance known to at least 2 other nations]
Great Library [Increases Happiness in Random city of a member nation every 4 years]
The Olympic Games [Victory Wonder]
Wormhole Sensor/Voice of Planet-Ascent to Transcendance/Extrasolar colony ------
National Projects, can be rebuilt; delayed construction period if first to build it, no delay period if someone is already building it; can be renamed; helps determine culture, determined also by culture; dependent upon geography location; high maintainance; all can be named differently, weaker effects
[Increases Happiness regardless of distance to capital]
Cure for Cancer
{Ramayana}
Clinical Immortality
Contraception [Increases host city's happiness]
{Shakespeare's} Theater
Coliseum (NOT THE Stadium) [Acts as a barracks/command center in each city]
The Command Nexus
{Sun Tzu's} War Academy [Increases Voting Power in Earth Council, closes foreign embassies already open (does not prevent new ones from opening), opens embassies in other nations]
Empath Guild [Increases trade, Closes foreign embassies]
Forbidden City [Increases trade, Opens embassies in other nations]
Philosopher's Stone [Increases trade, Earns higher regard]
{Eiffel, Tokyo} Tower [Increases ship movement, Naval base in each city]
The Maritime Control Center [Increases Science Output]
SETI
Supercollider
{Edison's} Lab [Universal increase in Science Output for all civs with Internet advance; Increases trade]
Internet Backbone [Increases Science Output, 10 free advances on average per age]
Universal Translator [Halves Maintenance]
Self-Aware Colony [Halves Maintenance, Increases trade]
{London} Exchange [Increases happiness, production, and health; protects city from disease]
Immunity Chip
Human Genome Project
Longevity Vaccine [Increases trade from each civ with Television advance; Competition arises if more than one exists, which means those that have a higher luxury rate will have a higher percentage of gold returning from this project from a gold pool created from ((.5ืtotal city trade1)+(.5ืtotal city trade2)+...), with each city in a civ that has the television advance]
{Hollywood} [Radar coverage of the world]
Globesat [Allows construction of Space improvements]
{Apollo} Program [Protection of a spy in each city]
Hunter-Seeker Algorithm
{The Agency, FBI, CIA, MI6, MI5, KGB, GRU} [Increases trade in host city]
{Merchant Exchange, Wall Street}
Dinosaur Park [Free transportation/orbital insertion, Space colony directly overhead, space improvement costs halved]
Space Elevator [Increases Defense in every city]
National Shield
Citizen's Defense Force [Eliminates overcrowding and pollution unhappiness; Research Facilities Increase happiness, trade]
Virtual World [Allows construction of Nuclear weaponry]
{Manhattan} Project [Allows construction of Planet Buster weaponry]
The Primer [Increases Production in Host city]
{King Richard's} Crusade [Increases production, no limits on instantaneous transport via Psi Gate or Airport]
Bulk Matter Transmitter [Complete repairs in the field, upgrades free/halved]
{Leonardo's, Nakamatsu's} Workshop
Nano Factory [Reduces war unhappiness]
Universal Suffrage [Reduces unhappiness/rioting]
AI Entity
Telepathic Matrix [Any advance known to at least 2 other nations with the Internet Advance]
Planetary Datalinks [Increases Psi attack/defense]
Neural Amplifier
Dream Twister [+2 SUPPORT]
Living Refinery [Increases terraforming rate]
Weather Paradigm [Can exceed population restrictions, +1 POLICE]
Ascetic Virtues [Bases start at size 3, happiness increased in cities smaller than 5]
Planetary Transit System [Permanent Population boom]
Cloning Vats [Increases attack MORALE]
Cyborg Factory |
Russell
Junior Civer
IP: |
posted June 02, 1999 08:13
Firstly, it seems unfair that a wonder should become obolete because some race you've never even met discovered some tech you've never heard of. It should at the very least be a race you have encountered. This would have an interesting effect in exploring when suddenly you come accross a race that causes your happiness to decrease or whatever the effect of the wonder was.
However, an even better thought is the idea of gradual obsolesence. The first race you encounter with the tech decreases the effects of the wonder to 1/2, the next to 1/3, and the effect continues to taper etc. Of course, when you discover the tech yourself, then I believe it should nullify the effects altogether.
The tapering effect would depend on the type of wonder of course. For instance, if it was the great wall, then the discovery of the appropriate tech (from memory I think it's metalurgy) by each race then makes that race immune to the effects of the wall. Once you've discovered metalurgy yourself, the effects vanish altogether.
This idea may encourage isolationism to some extent but hey!
It would be good to have a certain randomness to the tech that triggers obsolesence in wonder too, slightly different in each game or even different conditions each game eg, Once you've reached a certain population or a certain number of cities or encountered a certain number of races.
|
Russell
Junior Civer
IP: |
posted June 02, 1999 08:22
Here's some ideas for a new building type --the mini-wonder - that is, buildings that can be built once for each civilization.
The trick to this type of building is, the more civilizations that you encounter that have one, the less positive effect the building has. For instance, say you have a mini-wonder that gives you $100 a turn, sounds good?, but if you encounter another race with the same building, then the effect is immediately halved ($50), the next race, down to $33 and so on. Perhaps after about the 4th race, the pendulum could actually swing the other way and begin to have a negative effect on your race (citizens are upset because everyone else has got the same building they have and you begin to lose money) to the point where you have to tear it down - ah, but then it would give a more positive effect to the other races - what a dilemma! What to do, what to do? |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted June 02, 1999 12:33
Another vote for Gradual Wonder Obsolescence. (check mark)Russell: About these mini-wonders... would you rather have a mini-wonder system than, say, a World's Greatest system? Q Cubed: Amazing classification of wonders into categories. Now, I know this isn't what you intended, but I think we could take these "wonder effects" and use them as game flags for genuine customizable wonders... Also, I would be more comfortable with the concept of "natural wonders" if they were classified merely as "landmarks," as you suggest, and perhaps provided a mild trade bonus. I'm intrigued by the concept of Wonders being different from National Projects, and I see the distinction, which is an important one. As far as gameplay goes, I would be willing to play a game where "national projects" are wonders, or where the two are in separate categories. Either one is fine with me. |
Flavor Dave
Civer
IP: |
posted June 02, 1999 13:29
Not to be mean, but alot of people here need to think thru the effects of the changes they are proposing on gameplay. They'd be making wonders either too powerful, or useless, etc. I like the idea for changing the effect of the Eiffel Tower, Bird's idea. Remember, it's only 300 shields, pretty cheap at that point in the game. ET would be nice to have, but not game altering; after all, think about how you would approach things if the AI had it. You'd get all of your troops in place, get engineers to build fortresses for them, and declare war. You'd get hit hard, but come back the next turn fairly well off. Turn it around, and if you built it, you'd be secure from annoying "raids" from AI civs, and secure from weak AI civs. But the strong ones would still be a problem. NOTE: unless you seriously upgrade the AIs attacking ability, teach it a little about feinting, using terrain, and attacking in force, ET would be too darn powerful. I think the idea of natural wonders is cool. You get two extra trade arrows just in that square. It could really be great on the city screen, and would make explorers slightly more valuable--they'd be able to locate many of these, encouraging you to build cities nearby. One rule--you can't build a city directly on a natural wonder, or else you lose the effect. Anyway, these wouldn't change the game much, they'd just make it more fun. Which is the goal, right? I agree that they should allow you to name your wonders. Too many US wonders (altho, as an American, I would say that it is merely a reflection of American superiority;-) One concept I had for a wonder has something like the Agora, or that city in ancient Africa that had a huge market (Mali?) It would allow caravans to treat all terrain as roads, or give them 6 MPs instead of 1, and/or travel over water without ships. Something to make ancient trade easier. Almost all of the wonders are military/diplomatic, scientific, or happy. Of course, you'd have to replace an ancient wonder. My vote would be for Marco Polo's embassy. Once you learn the power of tribute, this wonder is a little too powerful, esp. for a mere 200 shields. The world's Greatest ideas seem cool. But I wonder how they'd affect gameplay. It might be hard to prevent this effect from being either useless, or dominant. You'd have to balance it very carefully. "Firstly, it seems unfair that a wonder should become obolete because some race you've never even met discovered some tech you've never heard of." What's unfair is that the AI is so stupid;-) Since the game is you against everyone else, this effect gives the AI a better chance. The game would be too easy with the change you suggest. Altho gradual obsolesence would be realistic, without dramatically affecting gameplay. |
NotLikeTea
Civer
IP: |
posted June 02, 1999 17:26
I've been looking through the wonders of CivII. Most of the non-ancient wonders are very western based.We have JS Bach's Cathedral, and Michalangelo's Chapel. Why not a famous Mosque, or Synagogue, or other temple? The race into space starts with the Apollo program? The USSR launched the first satellite, the first animal in space, the first man in space, and had the first space walk. Why not give them a little more credit, and make the Apollo wonder into the first man on the moon, another important feat. Come to think of it, I don't think there is any representation by Communist nations in the wonders list. I remember a never build "Great Hall of the Soviet", which was to be an immense structure (biggest on earth) that could be a cool diplomatic/political wonder. I'm sure there are other wonders that could be modified to be more international... The Americas are entirely unrepresented, except for the US itself, which is is over represented. I'm sure the Inca's or the Aztecs did something worth commemorating (a pyramid, perhaps?) |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted June 02, 1999 19:12
I tend to agree. And while I find Call to Power's "Ramayana" a bit flaky, I would definitely support the Kaaba as a mid-game religious Wonder. As for Russia, I'm rooting for the KGB Wonder, but perhaps that's not quite the representation you were hoping for...Besides, no matter how well balanced the Wonders may be, there will inevitably be negative reactions. "If the Taj Mahal, why not X?" "If the Kremlin, why not Y?" "What makes the Statue of Liberty more historically influential than Z?" And so forth. Would you be willing to sacrifice the Hanging Gardens in exchange for the Moai Statues of Easter Island? Anyway, I think the current list of suggestions includes several appropriate international Wonders (as well as quite a few questionable ones.) |
Q Cubed
Civer
IP: |
posted June 02, 1999 21:01
Thank you, Enoch, for your gracious compliment.I think the following should be listed as flags for customizable wonders:
For Landmarks, World's Greatests. These are what they modify.
[trade]
[happiness]
[science]
[production]
[food]
[energy]
[population]
------
Here are general limitation flags
must be built between cities across
[channel]
[river]
[mountain]
[hill] must be built in cities with access to
[inland seas]
[oceans] must be built in cities with
[all city radii squares filled]
------
[No limits on instantaneous transport via Psi Gate or Airport]
[Increases Happiness regardless of distance to capital]
[Increases Happiness in Random city of a member nation every 4 years]
[Increases trade from each civ with Television advance; Competition arises if more than one exists, which means those that have a higher luxury rate will have a higher percentage of gold returning from this project from a gold pool created from ((.5ืtotal city trade1)+(.5ืtotal city trade2)+...), with each city in a civ that has the television advance] [Acts as a barracks/command center in each city]
[Acts as a Granary in each city]
[Increases defense in every city]
[Naval base in each city]
[Acts as a power plant in each city on the same continent]
[Protection of a spy in each city] [Increases trade]
[Increases Science Output]
[increases production] [Increases trade in host city]
[Increases host city's happiness]
[Increases Production in Host city] [Any advance known to at least 2 other nations]
[Any advance known to at least 2 other nations with the Internet Advance]
[Two discoveries immediate; thereafter, 10 free advances per age on average]
[Universal increase in Science Output for all civs with Internet advance] [Opens embassies in other nations]
[Closes foreign embassies already open (does not prevent new ones from opening)]
[Prevents others from attacking first]
[Increases Voting Power in Earth Council]
[Earns higher regard] [Eliminates conversion]
[Eliminates Crime/Corruption/Waste/Inefficiency]
[Eliminates maintinence]
[Ends threat of global disaster] [Eliminates all Nuclear weaponry]
[Allows construction of EcoRangers, destroys top three pollution cities]
[Allows construction of Nuclear weaponry]
[Allows construction of Planet Buster weaponry] [Increases ship movement]
[Increases attack MORALE]
[Increases Psi attack/defense]
[Increases terraforming rate] [Reduces war unhappiness]
[Reduces unhappiness/rioting]
[+2 SUPPORT]
[+1 POLICE]
[happiness increased in cities smaller than 5] [Upgrades free/halved]
[Halves Maintenance]
[Reduces military readiness costs]
[Space improvement costs halved]
[Complete repairs in the field]
[Eliminates overcrowding and pollution unhappiness]
[Research Facilities Increase happiness]
[Research facilities increase trade]
[Can exceed population restrictions]
[Bases start at size 3]
[Permanent Population boom] [Allows construction of Space improvements]
[Free transportation/orbital insertion]
[Space colony directly overhead] [Doubles effectiveness of Temples, Cathedrals; Doubles tithes]
[Frees slaves, causes freed slaves in enemy civs to be unhappy]
[Government/Social Engineering Choice switchovers immediate]
[Protects city from disease]
[Radar coverage of the world] [Victory Wonder]
------
Granted, It's a bit off topic, but...  |
Russell
Junior Civer
IP: |
posted June 03, 1999 18:20
No reason why we can't have a combination of both mini-wonders and World's Greatest just to make it more interesting; could be options to switch on or off on the setup screen. |
Kris Huysmans
Civer
IP: |
posted June 05, 1999 12:52
I suggest that some wonders only work when you have a specific religion:Christians : King Richard's Crusade, ...
Atheist : Lenin's dream , ...
Boeddhist : Lama Temple, ...
Greek ancient religion: Orakle, ...
Farao cultus : Piramites, ...
Islam : The great Jihad, ...
Zen : The Japanes economic mirakle, ...
UFO : The Seti project, ... |
paraclet
Civer
IP: |
posted June 05, 1999 15:53
I favor an off on option for the wonders, or that everybody should be able to build all wonders , even if somebody else has already built it...
Otherwise it gives an unfair advantage to those building it.And the names are for me not so important...Why a "pyramid" shpould give a granary in each city ? I don't see any connection between a Pyramid and a Granary...
But if everybody is able to build a "Great Granary" then it's understandable...
Same with each wonder...The Leonardo workshop should be replaced by a National academy of thechnology , the Colossus by a National Bank etc...
Magellan expedition by Naval Academy
Lighthouse being available to everybody as lighthouse...
Sun Tzu War academy as National War Academy
King Richard Crusade as Superior War academy
Marco Polo embassy as Minister of foreign affairs
Hanging Gardens as National Park
Great Wall as Nationa Institute of military Architecture
Copernicus observatory as Astronomical Institute
Shakespeare Theater as National Theater
Adam Smith Trading company as National Stock Market
Statue of Liberty as Adhesion to Human Rights Organisation
JS Bach Cathedral as National Opera
Michaelangelo Chapel as National Ballets
Darwin,s voyage as Geographical Institute
Women's suffrage can stay the same
Hoover Dam as National Dam
United Nation as adhesion to United Nations
Cure For Cancer as Nationa Medical Institute
Like that all civilisations should be equals depending of their investments...
|
Flavor Dave
Civer
IP: |
posted June 05, 1999 20:57
Paraclet--the problem with your idea is that it prevents you from making CHOICES, which is the essence of a strategy game. I don't understand your "unfair advantage" statement. I mean, the "unfair advantage" of the Pyramids is balanced by the "unfair advantages" of the Colossus and Hanging Gardens and....That's the whole point of wonders. |
NotLikeTea
Civer
IP: |
posted June 06, 1999 16:49
What do people think of almost-real wonders? Wonders that almost were built in our history, but didn't make it? Should these be included? |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted June 08, 1999 12:57
We're in our last week! This is your last chance to list your idea or to take issue with somebody else's! |
Stefu
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 07:29
You shouldn't be allowed to rush buy wonders. This would create better "wonder races". Also choice to divert production to wonder city - this would simulate that whole nation is in part of wonder production. This would require wonders to be of greater work. Also if Social Engineering is implemented, we need more wonders which improve some Soc. Engineering choices, like Cloning Vats in SMAC, for instance if there is Goverment choice Empire, then Forbidden City could remove negative effects of this choice. |
NotLikeTea
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 07:43
I was thinking of rushing wonders. Rushing should be allowed, but scaled down. Say, you can only rish a wonder by 10% per turn, so the very fastest you could ever finish a wonder would be in 10 turns (would require a production limit, too). In SMAC I'd discover a tech, buy the wonder, and have it done in the next turn. That's dull. |
Eggman
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 09:31
An interesting concept is to allow multiple cities to build one wonder. In Civ2, you can build caravans and then ship them over to the city building the wonder. Why not just let that production go in directly and cut out the middle man? So while the Statue of Liberty is being built in New York, the cities of Dallas, Boston and Atlanta dedicate their production to New York to aid in building the statue. Their production is added to the project automatically each turn. This basically does the same thing as the caravan model but without moving caravans around.Of course, if the caravan model becomes more automated (like CTP) this time around, the old caravan wonder model would be a whole lot easier to use. |
NotLikeTea
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 10:38
I dislike the Caravan model of trade, but I've always liked caravans and wonders. Makes it look like it's a real national project.Does the AI use caravans for wonders? Having jets bombing enemy caravans to delay their project would be rather exciting. |
Flavor Dave
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 10:45
I don't know this for a fact, but I think AIs do what Eggman suggests 2 posts above. I've often checked with my embassy, and seen the AI building a 400 or 600 shield wonder in a bunch of cities--and finish it quickly. |
Ecce Homo
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 13:48
Wonders should not become obsolete at the discovery of one tech - instead they could just become irrelevant.Examples:
The Great Library will only give Ancient or Medieval advances.
The Great Wall will not protect against Gunpowder units. |
EnochF
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 13:59
That's an interesting point. Just because somebody discovered Metallurgy shouldn't mean that your Great Wall is suddenly vulnerable to the legions and archers of the primitive civilization next door. |
Eggman
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 14:41
I am not sure that the computer builds wonders like that. Actually, I am pretty sure that the computer builds the wonder in a dozen different places only to keep you from capturing or sabotaging a key city and preventing the wonder from being built. The quick building is a function of cheating, not cooperation.As an example, I once started a game in 4000BC just so I could test combat percentages (I was creating units on both sides to see who would win and how often). I accidentally set one AI city to build Women's Suffrage and then further accidentally advanced the turn. Well, the size one village (producing one shield a turn) built the wonder THE NEXT TURN. 600 shields in ONE TURN!!! Win if you can, lose if you must but always cheat, I suppose... |
Q Cubed
Civer
IP: |
posted June 09, 1999 21:11
I like Eccles Homo's last idea.As for paraclet:
i'd rather have the unfair advantage of a wonder and not be able to build it than have many clones of one thing...else, it wouldn't BE a wonder, and there would be no point in building it. As for renaming: I don't like the drab and lifeless names that you gave them. however, i already accounted for the idea of renaming the wonders, so the default name would be there, and when it is built, you could rename it. |
NotLikeTea
Civer
IP: |
posted June 13, 1999 19:19
Two ideas:1) Olympics - Would give a random city in your civilization a trade and happiness boost, every few turns (5-10, probably, for balance). Effects proportional to number of friendly civs. In the later era (after television, maybe?) Effects would not be limited to only builder civ, but might appear in any city of a friendly civ. 2) Unbuilt wonders - Instead of building wonders with shields, why not other methods? Diplomacy has been suggested for the UN. What if the first civ to send a ship clear around the world gets the Magellan's Voyage wonder? Manhatten Project a result of research, not resources? I'm sure other wonders could be adjusted too.. makes for a different kind of a race, a bit of variety. | |
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