Let's get these vital graphics specifications discussions going again!

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Well, lets try this again. I suppose if your new the best bet would be to read the archived thread, and if your not to try and remember all that went before.

BTW If you can get me a ship (trireme preferred) that you're not embarassed to show by a week from now it would help me in getting demo 4 ready.

Cya,

In a game with this time scale, is unit facing really going to be utilized? A unit can change facing in a day, or a week. How long will a 'turn' be?

Unit facing is a tactical thing. The combat in this game seems more 'strategic'.

This has already been Extensively discussed, and an Idea similar to the one you presented is one of the major contenders. Discussion is in the old graphics thread that got clobbered due to a glitch. It is archived as a link on the web page in the graphics sections IIRC.

We are fortunate enough to now have the interest of a few artists! Sava has requested to know what kind of units we need. Some of this stuff bears further discussion, but just to get a few samples up, I think what I put below is sufficient.

What we need for units to use in demo 5 is:

Horde (mostly warriors)
Phalanx

We already have...

Light Spear (Egyptian style used in demo 4)
Trireme (as used in demo 4)

to fit on a 120x60 isometric tile (see screenshots of 120 pixel map here , and use the Egyptian light Spear men as a size guide.) The graphics format to use for now is gif 89a with the background set as transparent.

Phalanx

Give me suggestions/feedback on what you would like to see the phalanx be. Do you want a more battle like pose? Do you want different colors?

Historically, phalanx divisions wore leather/bronze armor. The more powerful nations (Romans, Egyptians) used bronze shields while the less powerful nations (Germanic tribes) tended to use wooden shields. The blade of the spear that they used were bronze, or other metals depending on the availability of such metals. Phalanx units were used primarily by the Mediterranean powers while the Norse, Germanic, and other tribes used swords.

Also, what would you like the horde unit to look like?

Sava

The guy looks good! I think a more refined version might need a longer spear since phalanx spears are quite long, and possibly some little highlights for glints off armor and things like that. But I think he's quite good, and would like to see more! Let's see what the others think.

BTW, you can edit your posts if it doesn't come out right, which makes things a lot easier to read in the long run. It's the pencil-and-paper icon and the top of the post. Also, I expect if you just put the gif in the page then there would be no problem. It's just because you are trying to access the GIF directly that GeoCities is stupid

I think we should definitely be able to get your work into demo 5, so I'm anxious to see what you're take on a "horde" is!

I've made an attempt for the Horde unit. You can take a look at it here:
www.geocities.com/fiera_com/hordes.html

Glad you are interested in helping out! And thanks for putting up the horde. He looks good, and rather familiar from when I checked out your website .

There is one thing I would like to capture in the horde image if you can, to refine it a bit... At least my feeling is that it should look Undisciplined. Something kind of like an ax in one hand, and a bottle of wine in the other . I Don't mean and seriously, but if you can figure a way with the few number of pixels at your disposal to make him look like he doesn't follow orders well, I think it would be an improvement. That's since it would tie the game effect of undisciplined troops to the image.

If you are interested in signing up for the long haul, as I saw in your post in the Civ 2 creation thread, then I heartily encourage that. I will try and post soon exactly what that entails. I need to put out a "current plans" post for unit graphics anyway.

Your unit looks like it would be good for a trooper halfway between horde and phalanx. It looks somewhat disciplined and appears to have decent armor, but it has no shield or helmet or insisgnia that a phalanx trooper would have. It is a good graphic, and we can easily make a place for it in the tech tree and military model.

Since I'm sure there will be people coming by that are interested in helping to push the project forward, but not wanting to read many pages of forum posts, I thought I would give a unified view of where we are. I have carefully reread pretty much everything on unit graphics, and am making the following pronouncements. These aren't carved in stone. There is still some time for experimentation. But we have already tried out a bunch of things, and we have to put closure on this at some point. I'm stating things now so people have a chance to discuss the pronouncements, do some quick experiments, etc. Here's how I see it:

On the main map:

1. Each Task Force (= army = collection of units) will be represented by a single unit image that best represents the majority of combat power of the task force. Since the single image representing the task force will not give the player can immediate grasp of the combat power of the task force (TF) we will use an indicator placed around the base of the image called a Power Circle.

2. Power Circles (or Rings) are a circle shown in perspective around the base of the TF icon. The power circle has the player's color, and has an area proportional to the total military power of the TF. The maximum power circle radius for any given age will be somewhat less than the size of a tile. There will also be a minimum size for the power circle so that it doesn't look silly . You can see a demonstration of power circles in demo 4, and a somewhat cruder example on the Demo Graphics #1 web page. (The example on the web page has the offsets screwed up, we will get those right!)

3. In addition to the power circles, ownership of the task force will be represented by an alpha channel piece of color that goes on a shield, side, or other appropriate place on a unit depending on whether it represents a man like figure or combat vehicle of some sort.

Other factors:

4. There will be some sort of graphical object that performs the functions that the "TF Box" does in demo 4. The specific purpose is to show all the units in a given TF, allow for several TFs that may happen to be in the same square to be shown, and allow for rearrangement of units between TFs. I think this should show a TF as arrayed for battle if possible for eye candy value, and also show TF and individual unit military power. The exact way that we show this is TBD. In demo 4 I used relatively unobtrusive lines under the TFs and individual units to show power. The line length scaled the same as the diameter of a power circle for consistency.

5. There will be something of order 100 unit icons over the span of history. However, as much as possible we would like to find-tune the looks of the units to culture groups, or even individual cultures. I think the best thing to do in this regard is to stay flexible. We can go an enormous way in playtesting the game with only a single set of icons that span history. Ideally the main set should be done by one or a few artists to maintain thematic consistency. Certainly one artist could do all the human figures, and another all the various combat vehicles without losing unity in presentation. As artists interested in doing units become available, we could broaden out the core unit set to first cover several cultural groupings, or even individual cultures.

6. As mentioned above, we will stick to the GIF89a format for now. Eventually we must switch over to something with alpha channel support. Given modern graphics programs, I don't think migrating the existing graphics from the GIF format to whatever we select will be very difficult. But I don't have much experience in this area, so I could be wrong.

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-17-2001 05:32 PM Hi Fiera: Glad you are interested in helping out! And thanks for putting up the horde. He looks good, and rather familiar from when I checked out your website .

You know, each artist has its own style... No, seriously, I based on some units made for non yet released Civ2 scenarios, but made it more "slender" to make it the same size the spearman you already have.

quote: There is one thing I would like to capture in the horde image if you can, to refine it a bit... At least my feeling is that it should look Undisciplined. Something kind of like an ax in one hand, and a bottle of wine in the other . I Don't mean and seriously, but if you can figure a way with the few number of pixels at your disposal to make him look like he doesn't follow orders well, I think it would be an improvement. That's since it would tie the game effect of undisciplined troops to the image.

quote: If you agree with the plan, and think it's basically decent, please also let me know about that .

Yep, that's my case.

But I've been working on the Horde unit and I think I've already got something in the right direction.

Here's the link again: www.geocities.com/fiera_com/hordes.html

So maybe a better choice would be featuring him with another weapon: maybe a big and amazing hammer, or a thick club...

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-19-2001 08:10 AM Hey Fiera, sounds reasonable. I don't mean to bother you endlessly about the one figure...

Hey, no need to worry! The time I spend designing or modifying a unit graphic is always fun for me. As I already said, I really enjoy designing units, so it's alright if you want me to change a few things. That means more fun for me!

Now, I tried to make it more threatening giving him a hammer. If you don't yet like it, I'll try with the shield thing.

See it here: www.geocities.com/fiera_com/hordes.html

quote: Perhaps you can put together a post pointing to your buildings page on your web site, and we can get people's ideas about what kind of buildings / city graphics you might be able to put together?