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Topic: Fundamentalism is too powerful |  |
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Father Beast
Warlord
American Fork, UT USA
Feb 2000
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posted May 15, 2000 16:19
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I have come to the conclusion that the Fundamentalist government is too powerful and upsets the balance of play in the game.
10 units PER CITY don't require support
Low corruption level.
Noone is ever unhappy, as if you built Shakespeares in every city.
Reputation hits are diminished.
No senate (or church hierarchy)overruling your decisions.what's the disadvantages. Hmnnn... Science is halved. you don't get the trade bonuses of a representative government. that's it! I find that the science drain isn't a bother, if you change after you've discovered everything you want, then go on to conquer your neighbors.
So just what makes anything else (besides a democracy) attractive at all. is there any reason to ever be communist, for example?
What do you all think?
[This message has been edited by Father Beast (edited May 15, 2000).] |
Smash
King
Vancouver Canada PST
Jul 1999
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posted May 15, 2000 17:10
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Communist is potentially the most powerful government form.With happy wonders and trade routes you can celebrate "we love" days at no more than 30% luxuries.Now you have a corruption free Republic with no Senate interference,6 content citizens(martial law) and good production,gold and science.I like vet spys more than fanatics Fundy is strong but the low trade is not for me.I will go Fundy when there is nothing left to research but will celebrate "we love" to get some arrows happening. |
shamrock
Warlord
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, USA
Jul 1999
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posted May 15, 2000 19:56
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And I would say that democracy is easily the best (for single-player at least)!  Father Beast, given the difference of opinion in just 3 posts, perhaps the government types are well balanced after all... |
Venger
Warlord
Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
b.02-15-99
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posted May 15, 2000 20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Father Beast on 05-15-2000 04:19 PM
I have come to the conclusion that the Fundamentalist government is too powerful and upsets the balance of play in the game.
10 units PER CITY don't require support
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Isn't it 8? Still, point taken. quote:
Low corruption level.
Noone is ever unhappy, as if you built Shakespeares in every city.
Reputation hits are diminished.
No senate (or church hierarchy)overruling your decisions.what's the disadvantages. Hmnnn... Science is halved. you don't get the trade bonuses of a representative government. that's it!
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That would hurt in the middle game, but in the end game, it's choice. Alot of people move to it once the research race is over. I don't because I just prefer to pick a government and stick with it, good and bad... quote:
I find that the science drain isn't a bother, if you change after you've discovered everything you want, then go on to conquer your neighbors.
So just what makes anything else (besides a democracy) attractive at all. is there any reason to ever be communist, for example?
What do you all think?
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I think you should edit the rules.txt to make it more balanced for your uses. Maybe reduce the free support to 4 or so, whatever you think would balance it more. Venger |
suas333
Warlord
Brooklyn, NY, U.S
Feb 2000
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posted May 15, 2000 21:45
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Although Fundamentalism is supposed to support 10, i also have seen that it really only supports 8. |
Bohlen
Warlord
Columbus, Ohio, USA EST
Nov 1999
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posted May 15, 2000 22:46
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I would have to agree that Fundy makes the game too easy. I stay away from it when playing SP and become a Commie when I need to fight. It makes the game more of a challenge that way. What ever happened to the Fascism patch? Does anyone play with that patch anymore?
[This message has been edited by Bohlen (edited May 15, 2000).] |
Seeker
King
Canada(UWO)
b.02-15-99
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posted May 15, 2000 23:18
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I thought that democracy is too powerful:
100% rates, super trade, no bribery. With Women's Lib, Shakes Theatre, and MC you can even have an army. Watch out, Fundy boy, for an army of democratic spies with enough gold from WLTP days and a few turns of 100% taxes to buy those cities... |
Oldman
Warlord
and Chief of the Greater London Council
Apr 2000
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posted May 16, 2000 05:25
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It really depends on what stage of the game you're at, and what type of war you're in.Total war needs fundamentalism, communism is good for a limited (almost cold) war and democracy or republic can support a defensive war. But the problem is the earlier in the game you are, research-wise fundy or communism will really hold you back. and no matter how much money you have, you can't have a total war with someone when your senate keeps calling cease-fires?!?!  Now having wrote all that, i've analysed the 3/4 advanced govt's and haven't answered the thread - doh!!! . I don't really feel that any is too strong though, if you trim them all back and make them each less powerful in their own rights, then you make them too similar and there isn't really any difference, and it doesn't matter which one you do have!!!!  they each have their bonus'. Dem for tax and sci, but no war capabilities. Commie for an all round govt & then fund for all out war! if you're good you can get around the weaknesses of each, but you try having an all out war with 30 tanks and 2 dozen paras, where your objective is to completely crush a civ to nothing when you're a democracy!!  |
AkwaticDudeCity
Chieftain
ZoomCity
Mar 2000
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posted May 16, 2000 07:51
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In a standard civ game you get free support for up to ten units under Fundamentalism. In many scenarios it is eight. That's just how the respective authors figured it to be best.
As stated before, every government type has its advantages and disadvantages. The choice of government should depend on a combination of the plans you have for your civ and its abilities at any given time. I myself have come to take the path Despotism, Monarchy, Communism and when the time is right, Fundamentalism. That's because i always want to have a decent military presence and complete diplomatic liberty for my Machiavellian schemes
I feel this more than makes up for the extra science, gold and population i would have gained under Democracy. ------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes? |
My Wife Hates CIV
Emperor
b.02-15-99
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posted May 16, 2000 08:55
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I thought democracy was also good. Until units started ending up as enemies after being bribed!! This latest version has changed. Units that are not stacked, of course, can be bribed. A big advantage (of the past) for democracy. Is this also true in MP? |
Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted May 16, 2000 10:21
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MWHC - Isn't this a bug that was fixed in 2.42?------------------
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Scouse Git[1] "CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor |
Steve Clark
Prince
Colorado Springs, CO
Oct 1999
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posted May 16, 2000 11:16
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Oldman is right, it all depends on what stage of the game you are at. Is Fundy too powerful when trying to build a spaceship? Not at all. Fundy is very (not too) powerful only in one situation - total warfare. |
shamrock
Warlord
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, USA
Jul 1999
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posted May 16, 2000 12:25
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Isn't it obvious that Fundamentalism is a crutch for the weaker player? |
SilverDragon
Warlord
Bethesda, Maryland
Apr 2000
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posted May 16, 2000 18:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Smash on 05-15-2000 05:10 PM
Communist is potentially the most powerful government form.
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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon |
Venger
Warlord
Keeper of the Can-O'Whoopass
b.02-15-99
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posted May 16, 2000 21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by shamrock on 05-16-2000 12:25 PM
Isn't it obvious that Fundamentalism is a crutch for the weaker player?
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The thread that would not die... Venger
P.S. I would offer that Fundy is a little too powerful once the research tree is exhausted...I may trim it back to 5 free units or so for gameplay... |
Emperor10
Chieftain
Jul 1999
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posted May 16, 2000 21:37
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I think its pretty balanced...Fundie is the strongest war time government. But in a space race, give me Democracy any day. Communism is strong during periods of tension and little, short wars (sort of like a compromise between Democracy and Fundamentalism...at least it seems that way in the game  ). |
War4ever
Warlord
Vancouver Canada PST
May 2000
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posted May 16, 2000 21:57
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i goto monarchy right quick and then to republic for dramatic growth and the setting up of trade routes....... after i have found my more hostile neighbors i then go communist for war..... dropping into democracy for some quick techs and then to fundy for a large war..... back to democracy for more techs and then stay in that mode and mop up the opposition, while i send my huge ship off to explore new worlds.
commie is great for the ics er who churns settlers, units and caravans and dips out ..... as is fundy.
No govt is too powerfull but there are keys to the timing in the game to use all for the best possible effects. In MP... fundy is great as it allows you to throw many many units at an enemy who likely isn't in the same gov't and not able to withstand your assault .. especially if you have SOL and become fundy early Otherwise my solution is this.... grab a nuke and watch people reel back in horror as you show the world your diplomatic stance hahahahhahahaha ------------------
Every Wednesday night between 5pm and 9pm it is War4ever... Come pin your pike on the jackass lest you be made a fool and turned into the jackass yourself....... same icq # |
Father Beast
Warlord
American Fork, UT USA
Feb 2000
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posted May 17, 2000 06:38
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I find the best way is to change to monarchy as soon as possible, then republic and maintain a defensive stance and build my cities and develop. go directly from republic to democracy and stay there until I have almost all the tech I want, then turn to fundamentalism and become this super war machine to destroy my enemies.
Fundamentalism was new to civ2 (wasn't in civ1) and I don't think they thought it out thoroughly. |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted May 17, 2000 10:25
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Each government has it's strengths and weaknesses. Whether it is WLYD's adding population, or a reduced science level... each government is meant for specific situations. I don't think Fundy is too powerful. Heck, if I'm in pure combat mode, I like communism better. You just have to love those veteran spies... now those are POWERFUL |
St Leo
King
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
b.02-15-99
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posted May 17, 2000 22:02
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Watch out, Fundy boy, for an army of democratic spies with enough gold from WLTP days and a few turns of 100% taxes to buy those cities...Watch out, Demmie boy, for an army of fundy spies with enough gold from Mike's and Adam's and a few turns of 80% taxes to buy those cities... Dang, forgot about the Democratic immunity to corruption. What the hades was Brian thinking of with that rule?
[This message has been edited by St Leo (edited May 17, 2000).] |
Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted May 18, 2000 20:24
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Communism with the Vet spies - as Ming says - is great. For real power build about 20 of them - then go Fundy!The real problem with Fundy being so powerful, is not the form of govenment itself, but the reaction of the AI when the human player picks this option. The AI research rate slows down immediately to mirror the fundy player. Imagine the challenge the game could offer if this was different. Think about this scenario. Suppose you are playing on a large map, and
are bribing/fighting your near neighbours into submission - the usual fundy game. However, somewhere the other side of the world are a couple of civs in demo - both allied with each other - building battleships - whilst you are still turning out knights. Then they both go communist - then you have a game.........it could be called CIV 3!?
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SG (2) |
War4ever
Warlord
Vancouver Canada PST
May 2000
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posted May 19, 2000 01:30
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LOL @ ScouseGits.... nah thats not till civ10 at least |
Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted May 19, 2000 04:57
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Oh I definitely like it SG2
Are we on for tonight?
  ------------------
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Scouse Git[1] "CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor |
SCG
Chieftain
Jun 2000
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posted June 06, 2000 08:35
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at the risk of beating a dead horse and opening a can of worms (and many other cliches you can think of :P ), and lacking multiplayer experience (unreliable connection on the machine i have civ2 on ), My experience with fundy governments is that they play right into the hands of an expansionist, defensive democracy (such as is my tendancy). No matter how much money they bring in (often the AI switched to them from democracy), I could buy off several cities a round and then use their own units to hold the line that round. |
tobyr
Warlord
Princeton, NJ USA
Oct 1999
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posted June 07, 2000 08:25
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Well, those of you who have seen my posts before know what I'm going to say, don't you...If you find fundamentalism too unbalancing, play the ToT fantasy game, and play one of the tribes that are not allowed to have fundamentalism. That way it can only be used against you, which is pretty cool. And by the way, in civ2, fundamentalism supplies free support for 8 units, not ten, despite what the documentation and rules file may say, right? I almost always shoot for communism in the fantasy game. It takes a while to get there, and meanwhile you have to manage as best you can. - toby
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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com
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rah
King
Ferretown CST
b.02-15-99
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posted June 07, 2000 12:54
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After some experimentation, I 100% agree with smash. Communism CAN be the best. It doesn't require much in luxury to get wltkd. I was able to kick out as much science using that as a democracy with the same cities.Nothing beats vet spys. If you get them first you can do a hell of a lot of damage, especially in MP. No senate, and in SP you can still demand tribute. RAH |
DaveV
Prince
USA - EDT
b.02-15-99
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posted June 07, 2000 13:59
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RAH - and you didn't even mention the free support for 3 units. The shield drain for defenders, scouts, ships, and settlers can be a killer in the early days of representative governments. |
SCG
Chieftain
Jun 2000
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posted June 07, 2000 18:48
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No denying the drain of units on a resourses, which is why i use diplomats and spies to explore and use guerilla tactics at home, reducing the need for supported units when I'm a rep. govt. And as for vet spies, I just let my newbie spies take target practice at a loose barbarian or enemy unit. I sent 30 spies at a stray AI explorer once, and got 28 vet spies out of it, and the explorer simply fortified allowing me to do it some more |
Elspeth
Settler
Haven
Jun 2000
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posted June 08, 2000 00:35
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I thought you could use spys to destroy an enemy unit by sabotage? Is that not correct? |
SCG
Chieftain
Jun 2000
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posted June 08, 2000 06:47
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nope, each time you sabotage you reduce the HP by 1/2 - and it cannot reach 0 in my experience. You need some actual attack unit to finish it off, although I'd think it would be neat to have a spy could wander into a MASH unit and pull out all the IV's They could use that life support beeping for that |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted June 08, 2000 07:14
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Spies are a great way to get those defensive units out of the those fortresses on mountains. As stated, you still need an offensive unit to finish the job, but it sure is easier to take the unit out after you sabotage him twice with spies |
Sieve Too
Prince
New Hampshire, USA
b.02-15-99
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posted June 08, 2000 09:42
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Nothing beats Fundamentalism in the pre or early industrial periods for war - assuming you have the requisite conquering techs. Each city you capture becomes an instant addition to your war machine. No disorder or starvation via Elvis to worry about. You need only leave a single unit behind, or in some cases, none at all. 8 free units means no slow down in producing new attackers. Tithes generate more gold than Communism. Rapid capture also means more plunder.Later in the game, the balance of power tilts more towards Democracy and Communism. IIRC early versions of Civ II gave Fundamentalism 10 free units and there was no max science rate, i.e. you could actually run Fundy at 80% science. Later versions toned down Fundy by reducing supported units to 8 and capping the max effective science rate at 50%. |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted June 08, 2000 10:59
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Even the science restriction doesn't really hurt you in Fundy. By using caravans and just getting techs from cities that you take, you can still maintain a good rate of advancement. You can really crank those caravans out since you aren't lossing shields to support. But, I will still go communism vs fundy if I have a choice (SOL).
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War4ever
Warlord
Vancouver Canada PST
May 2000
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posted June 08, 2000 12:48
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Ming i would agree with you but not if your opponent is close by.... early on i like fundy especially if my opponent is on the same land mass. Strength in numbers of course. However if my tech lead isnt' huge, i will go commie and use WLTKD's to really capitalize on trade, science and martial law, while still churning out troops, spys and or settlers |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted June 08, 2000 12:57
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WLYD's in Commie are great. Thanks to martial law, all you need to do is go to a 20% lux rate, and you can be producing the same level of trade as representative governments.
That's another reason why I like Commie over Fundy
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Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted June 08, 2000 13:26
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Ming - to reach city celebrations with a 20% luxury rate in communism - are you assuming most cities have some trade routes or market places? I am currently playing a game in commie - but am finding the lux rate more like 30/40% without good trade routes or MarketPlaces. ----------- SG (2) |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted June 08, 2000 13:32
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Yes SG2... by the time I get to communism, I better have at least two trade routes set up for each city. Any real city will have a marketplace, and a few other improvements to help out happiness. If you have the happiness wonders, I've seen WLYD's with only 10% |
Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted June 08, 2000 13:39
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I do have the Mike's & Bach's. However, the game started out as a real sleaze - quite a small continent for a large map. I have probably built too many cities on top of each other for a lower lux rate.------------ SG (2) |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted June 08, 2000 13:48
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Another trick is to maximize your cities for trade. Since shields aren't as much of a problem in Communism, you can afford to shift many of your workers to ocean or other trade squares. This really helps a lot toward getting WLYD's. |
Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted June 08, 2000 23:07
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Yes, that does help. By jacking up the luxury rate to around 60% for a turn, means that most of the cities will celebrate. Then with the resulting double trade, the rate can be easily dropped down. This is the best way to play in fundy as all the caravns have a greater bonus. However, in fundy I don't mind reducing the science rate, which is poor anyway. (The difference between an advance every 17 or 27 turns is irrelevant - as advances come from trade/theft/conquest) Playing in communism, I am more reluctant to see advances drop from 5 to 6 turns so I can adjust luxuries! ----------
SG (2) |
Alexander's Horse
Emperor
of speeding horse float streaming shit and piss.
May 99
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posted June 08, 2000 23:49
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Dear Ming (and others), I was going for fundy in the big aussie game but got communism first. I have all my cities building factories and the first will come online in the next couple of turns. I need to upgrade my army, build a navy, and build city walls and sea forts. The two big alliances in the game are at war, which is good for me for now but I can't assume I won't be drawn in. I can build destroyers, cruisers, skii troops and cavalry, which is pretty much what everyone else has. What would you do in my shoes to speed up the big industrial/military upgrade? Should I change to fundy when I get it? Yours faithfully "Nervous Neutral"
[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 09, 2000).] |
Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted June 09, 2000 10:34
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First, it depends on how many units per city you are supporting. If you have tons, fundy provides the advantage because you can support more units (8) for free. Plus, the money generated in fundy could allow you to buy your city improvements instead of just waiting for them to be built.However, if you are going to fall too far behind in the science hunt... then commie will work better. |
Father Beast
Warlord
American Fork, UT USA
Feb 2000
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posted June 10, 2000 05:54
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OK, fundamentalism isn't really good for anything except total war. I really think that there should be some unhappy people somehow.
but as a total war, I find it hard to beat. I often have little cities cranking out huge unlimited amounts of fanatics, while the big ones make my main war units. fanatics are good for cannon fodder, fortifying around cities in a siege (until my army gets there), and general harrasment. the enemy buys a lot of them off me, but who cares? I have a lot more where they came from. this allows me to maintain HUGE armies without supporting a single unit.
If I have the UN, I can declare war or peace almost at will. no senate will ever get on my butt, no one will ever consider revolting. nothing gets in my way. democrats can't match my ease and bloodthirst. commies slow their production if they try to have a big army.
Oh, I don't have MP though. you guys would give me a challenge. |
Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted June 10, 2000 09:24
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Surely you don't need the UN in fundy!? The only purpose of researching Communism is for Espionage.
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SG (2) |
Alexander's Horse
Emperor
of speeding horse float streaming shit and piss.
May 99
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posted June 10, 2000 23:09
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Ming, thanks for the advice. I shifted into communism and can see the benefits of it.
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Ming
ACS CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Mingapulco (CST)
b.02-15-99
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posted June 11, 2000 11:44
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Good luck in your game AH. Commie is one of the under rated governments |
Smash
King
Vancouver Canada PST
Jul 1999
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posted June 11, 2000 16:59
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I've seen this discrepency before.My version allows 10 units no support.Others have mentioned 8.I have a couple scenarios where 8 is the number but regular game is 10.So which is it? 8 or 10? I hope there isn't a difference between versions. |
Scouse Gits
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted June 11, 2000 17:54
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Smash - 8 but I run a standard PC not a Mac.
Fanatics - no support at all.
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SG (2) |
MasterBob
Prince
Liverpool, United Kingdom
Nov 1999
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posted June 11, 2000 18:23
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Democracy is the best goverenment(especially if you want a high score). Fundy is good for war if all your research is done and communism is like a compromise between Fundy and Democracy. The goverenments are pretty well balanced. On deity level many Comp. Opponents also switch to fundy is the late game, if you let them lvie that long.------------------
Come Drink with us at the
The Drunken Pub
"If you cannot beat them, don't join them, instead corrupt them, make them join you, then throw them off a cliff." "The seeds of evil are the the same seeds of greatness." |
Smash
King
Vancouver Canada PST
Jul 1999
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posted June 11, 2000 19:46
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Does it say 8 in the rules.txt? |
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