Well, I am in the process of repackaging the files for Apolyton. These files will have a Readme and some additional information.

I didn't do that initially with the maps because I created a section called 'Instructions' on my site. It has 'instructional' information in it and available for download as well. Like how to load, save, setup, add Civs, specify start locations, change map sizes, etc. The stuff you need to create a playable map. Basically the same type of information found in a Readme.

What I have found though is, nobody reads any instructions nor do they read any information on the front page. I'm hoping they might read a readme if I include one with the maps. Other than that, I don't know what else I can do to make it easier.

I welcome comments, ideas, thoughts, etc on this subject. Knowing all this by heart, it is hard to judge what others can and can't understand.

quote: Originally posted by skorpion59 on 03-14-2000 01:09 AM What I have found though is, nobody reads any instructions nor do they read any information on the front page.

skorpion59 - Well, I did. And thanks. I got some of them to work. there was a world map that wasn't a CTP size, that i didn't get to load up though. I'm assuming I just have to change the dimensions in the text file first? I just haven't bothered to do it yet.

I was just about to start a game on a map of Australia until I realised that because these were civ2 maps, they didn't have any trade goods on them. (silly me ). I was going to throw a few on there, but then I decided I couldn't be bothered.

Is anyone planning on going through a few maps and putting trade goods on them?

Thanks again.

Yeah, me. I am putting together developement maps and finished maps. Finished take much longer so I figured I would put what I had out there. This way people could look at them and tell me which maps they want customized (or build their own).

Either nobody understands (likely) or nobody really wants maps. Either way, I can just pick the maps I want to do. Since map philosophy seems to be to hard or to much trouble for most people, I have decided to go back to Map Scenario Pack setups. This was my original way but I gave it up because the file sizes were quite a bit bigger (I have a 30-map pack which I had been working on but it is about 8.5M). That is what I am doing now. I will create 1-map packs, 10-map packs, country-specific packs, etc. I just hate to spend hours and hours on a map nobody wants when it could of been put in on a map which people would like.

So, yes, better maps will become available soon. In fact, I am putting together a second computer right now just to speed up the process.

Which World and Australia maps are you referring to?

I was looking at Aus5-70x140F and JWorld-100x100R

btw, what does the 'F' and 'R' stand for? Excuse my ignorance. I never got into importing Civ2 maps.

Realistic maps are good for scenarios, and if people want to take the time to do it, they could make scenarios that played out like the Conflicts in Civ scenarios "should" have played out. (Anyone else think that was a very disappointing expansion? The only ones worth fooling with were some of the Best of the Net.)

I would like a really good map of, well, everything *but* the New World, and one of the US east of the Rockies for a Colonial and/or Civil War scenario. This is addition to Europe and Eurasia. Also, world maps normal, huge and gigantic sizes. People will probably want one of the Med-Cradle of Civ area (basically Spain to Persia), like the Roman scenario in civ 2.

Wes,
As far as finishing a few and then taking requests, I couldn't agree with you more, now. You know what they say about hindsight.

Markos,
You have any Civ2 'Alexander The Great' resembling maps in mind or are you speaking in general terms?

Part of the reason for doing the maps is my hope that others will start creating scenarios like they do with Civ2. As it stands now, we have everything needed to do a WW2-based scenario.

One additional thought. When I don't play on realistic maps, I do like Wes said and spend some time customizing the random map which was created. Anybody have any thoughts on adding these types of customized maps to the database?

Anyway, thanks for the information guys. It is appreciated (very much so) and gives me a direction to go in. The work I do is for the benefit of others, not myself. Heck, I find it hard these days to actually find the time to play a game just for the fun of it.

When you say images, are you referring to new unit graphics? If so, not really. I did some images in Civ2 but Gemini and Morgoth seemed to have a really good handle on the CtP side. The work they do is simply outstanding. If it meant getting some quality scenarios going, I would consider jumping back in with both feet. Although, with all I am doing now, that should probably say, jumping back in with one-third of a foot.

I can check out the Civ2 DB and CSC for the Alexander files. I don't know why I didn't think about that myself since I practically live in your Civ2 DB.

quote: Originally posted by skorpion59 on 03-16-2000 08:26 AM Part of the reason for doing the maps is my hope that others will start creating scenarios like they do with Civ2. As it stands now, we have everything needed to do a WW2-based scenario.

Well, I've thought about this myself. One of the reasons for me to go into SLIC was because I thought it could in the long run prove very useful in scenario-making. But I still have doubts about the AI. If you make a WWII scenario you want the British helping out the French and Belgiums on the continent early on in the war and you want the Americans to help out the Brittish later on. But how do you get the AI to do this? An alliance still means so little to the AI. Of course the easy solution would be to take the Brittish and Americans as one nation, the Axis-forces as another and the Russians and French as a thrird and fourth (ala Civ2) but that's a bit crude if you ask me...

But apart from that, your map-work is a large step in the direction of CtP-scenarios. In the least it made me think about giving it a try (and maybe I will someday, when I have more time).

Regular BMPs don't work at all but they never were supposed to. Only the special NOAA-type BMPs are supposed to work and I have yet to find any of those. I have also tried SMAC maps. They will give you some kind of outline but nothing else. The problem is these maps use map elevations different from how Civ2 and CtP use them.

You also have to remember the Map Utility program doesn't work correctly. No CtP map that is produced by it is playable and I have found only about 40% of the Civ2 maps will be read by it. Of that, 50% will not convert at all. The majority of the work is done by hand, tile-by-tile. If you look at my maps, some are Civ2 sizes and some are CtP sizes. This is because early in the game I had not figured out how to make a smooth translation from a Civ2 size to a CtP size. As it stands now, most maps have about a 1.5 ratio and are pretty easy. The odd size Civ2 maps are still more trouble than there worth and will be saved for last.

Locutus,
But who says the British have to help out the French? Ultimately, one country has to win which is not how it really happened. No game, not even Civ2, follows history exactly and I don't think I would want it to. After one game, it would be boring. It is the concept and theme of WW2 that the scenario would be about. And you are right about the CtP alliance strategy, it is not the best. However, since the AAIPs came out, I have maintained an alliance through the entire game in CtP but have never been able to do this in Civ2. IMHO, most people understand the shortcomings of the game they like and would be willing to overlook certain issues which can't be controlled because of that. Just my 2 cents worth.

If nobody else does anything by the time I finish my major projects, my next agenda will be to create a totally new scenario. The first thing I will do is remove Sea cities, space (entirely), half the wonders, two-third the units, etc. Instead of 4000 years it will be 40 years (or 400, whatever fits the timeline). The point is, there is a lot that can be done with CtP but nobody is doing it. Look at Wes' Med/Mod mod work.

I see your point but I actually think that can be addressed. Since it is a scenario, customization will help. You can make the Americans, Britains, French the same personality types while making Germans a separate type and even the Russians something else. This alone will not fix the problem but I think you see where I am coming from. Even new, custom types can be created.

You are like me. You need to add one more thing to your plate about as much as you need a hole in your head. However, if your willing, I would be willing to help. (Did those words just come out of my mouth?) I firmly believe that once people see what can actually be accomplished, they would be more willing to start creating some scenarios.

UPDATE: I just read Paul's government idea in the Creation-Different Racial Attributes thread. This concept could also be applied to further bind together allies as well as be used to keep Civs from building other Civs units. Just a thought.

So you're saying I'm gonna have to go into the AI-files he? I was afraid of that. I tried it several times already but so far I can't make heads or tails of it Well, I guess I give it another try. I think I'll eventually need some help from the specialists on this area though...

Don't worry about me doing too much: once the MedMod stuff (can't be too much work anymore) and the flat-map stuff (which has to be finished first anyway, it's needed for the scenario) is finished , I only have the SLIC work for the SLIC-group and the WWII scenario. I should be able to handle that. And as you said, once people see what is possible, they'll start making things themselves, so it's important someone starts it.
I'm going to need help with this scenario, so your offer is much appreciated and gladly accepted. I'll start a thead about this in the Creation Forum tomorrow or so (I first have to pass an important exam) and see what help I need and can get.

Yes, the Racial Attributes thread offers some interesting points for this and any other scenario.

Well, off to my study-books now...

Locutus:
You and Gemini really ought to talk--he's still working on his own WWII scenario, but I'm sure he'd appreciate some help (he wants to finish before next winter!)
Maybe start a thread on it...maybe there'll be some people open to help on it now, I dunno....

------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.

"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.

The AI flat doesn't use Nukes. Even when I have given them Nukes and then started Nuking them, they wouldn't Nuke back. (Locutus, this is one reason Nukes will not be a problem for flat-map support.)

And, yes, to do the allied thing like you are talking about (in a WW2 scenario), AIPs will have to be altered.

The thing to do would be to get into the aips and play around with the PRIORITIES of the AI--like double plant_nuke_priority (when does the AI actually do this?) and double nuke_city_priority.

[Hey, just saw this-->
double defuse_mines_priority
again. Forgot about that--they had tried to get mines into CtP, hey? I wonder if that is possible with Slic....]

Nope, the code for the mines (land mines) has not been completed. It is just another unimplemented feature.

I think we all know it is impossible (those of us that have worked on this area before anyway) and I personally don't want to play the game that way.

However, others want scenarios to work that way so I figured it wouldn't hurt to try a few things just to see what happens.

No Civ game yet has even come close to getting past the "All Civs for Themselves Only" mentality. That is simply not built into the game.

I've been off-line for a week or so (due to problems with my computer), so you haven't heard much from me (anyone miss me? ) but I'm still interested in that WWII scenario. I'll continue with it this weekend or so, I'm a bit busy with school right now. Just letting you guys know I'm still alive...