1)Domestication
2)Wheel
3)Aristocracy
4)Citizenship
5)Stirrup
6)Conscription
7)Flintlock
8)Infantry Tactics
9)City State
10)Astronomy
11)Radio
12)Republic
13)Combined Arms
14)Mechanical Power
15)Steam Engine
16)Sanitation
17)Rocketry
18)Refrigeration
19)Radio
20)Paper
21)Chronometer
22)Mechanical Clock
23)Eletro-Magnetism
24)Machine Tools
25)Currency
26)Contraception
27)Conscription
28)Compass
29)Astronomy
30)Theocracy
31)Imperialism
32)Indoor Plumbing
33)Civil Engineering
34)Amphibious Warfare
35)Automatic Weapons
36)Adv. Naval Aviation
37)Vertical Warfare
38)Adv. Mobile Warfare
>> Crop Rotation- old Ag. Rev.
>> Electrification- old Electricity
>> Engineering- old Concrete
>> Steel- old Adv. Naval Tactics
>> Composite Bow- old Ballistics
>> Organized Religion- old Religion
>> Paper Currency- old Banking
>> Plough- old Agriculture
>> Mobile Warfare- old Tank Warfare

It has been a slow day at work so I have had the chance to look at your advance chart. Following are some questions and observations I have about it.

1) What advances gives the ability to build undersea cities?
2) Jet Propulsion should probably come before Supersonic Flight.
3) Geometry list Ballistics as a prerequisite, but I don't see Ballistics anywhere on the tech tree.
Mechanical Clock and Compass along with Cannon Making should all come before Chronometer since Chronometer gives you Ships of the Line.
4) From the tech tree it looks like you can get Bombards, Flintlocks, and Cannon Making all without getting Gunpowder.
5) From the tech tree it looks like you can get Carrack and Cog without first getting Hullmaking.
6) The Governments all look good. I especially like the addition of City State and Imperialism.
7) Do you have a Sprite of the War Elephant and what is a Grenadier?
8) What is a Culverin and how does it differ from a bombard?
9) What roles will the Destroyer, PT Boat, Frigate, and Missle Cruiser play with respect to each other?
10) Need to make Nuclear Carrier have a prerequisite of Nuclear Power or you need to rename it Super Carrier or Advanced Carrier instead.
11) What happened to the Cruise Missle? I don't see it anywhere.

Well that is all for now.

Mark, in appreciation of my gratitude for making me the the prettiest host on Apolyton, website-speaking, I am going to give you your Noble even before writing, I think.

quote: Originally posted by WesW on 01-01-2001 10:37 PM 27)Conscription

If I understand this correctly, this is the advance that would provide Riflemen. I think it should be renamed. The existing name implies that the transition from muskets to rifles occurred for socio-political reasons, but that is incorrect.

The transition happened for three technical reasons.

First, there was the development of the self-contained cartridge, with primer, propellant, and projectile all in one. Next, there was the development of a mechanism, or action, that could be used to quickly ( instantly in the case of semi-automatics ) eject the previous cartridge and simultaneously load a new cartridge. Finally, the Industrial Revolution allowed the mass production of accurate, easily maintained rifles.

So I would consider naming the advance "Riflery," "The Cartridge" or maybe "Self-Loading Rifles." Just a thought.

I have now taken a look at your newest Adv. Chart. It looks really good. The only problem that I can see is that it looks like you can get Railroad without Steam Engine. Also one of the Prerequisites for Railroad is Banking, but I can't find Banking on the Adv. Chart.

It also looks like you can get Paper Currency without first getting Paper and that you can also get Printing Press without getting paper. I would suggest making this order change. To get Paper Currency you have to first get Printing Press. To get Printing Press you have to first get Paper. Maybe to accomplish this you could position Paper between Classical Education and Printing Press. Possibly instead of putting Feudalism as the second prerequisite for Paper Currency put Printing Press. That way Paper Currency would still be in the tech tree as a prerequisite for Economics.

Another suggestion I would make is to put Banking right after Currency. I would then make Banks available with Banking instead of Paper Currency. I would advocate putting Banking and Banks so early because Bankers are metioned in a couple of Jesus' Parables indicating that they existed as far back in history as 2000 years ago, if not much further. If I had to guess, I would guess that the idea of banks and bankers was developed about the same time that currency became a common medium of exchange.

The Banking change listed in the previous paragraph would also allow you to change the second prerequisite for Railroad from Banking to Steam Engine. This would eliminate the problem listed at the start of this post while still permitting you to get Industrail Revolution prior to Steam Engine, which is the historic order anyway. The Industrail Revolution was less dependent on Steam Power than it was Mechanical Power anyway.

Hope my 2 cents worth helps.

4 for 5 isn't bad! I know of a lot of professional football teams that would like that kind of record. More seriously though, thanks for explaining the reasoning behind the Bank Improvement. Once you explained the reasoning I can see where it makes good sense in the scheme of things that ya'll are trying to represent with Wes's Mod. Glad you liked my other ideas. Now if we can only get Wes to buy into them we will be set. :-)

#### NEW ADVANCES STRINGS ####
ADVANCE_AGRO_INDUSTRY "Agro-Industry"
ADVANCE_ARISTOCRACY "Aristocracy"
ADVANCE_ASTRONOMY "Astronomy"
ADVANCE_AUTOMATIC_RIFLES "Automatic Rifles"
ADVANCE_AUTOMOBILE "Automobile"
ADVANCE_CITIZENSHIP "Citizenship"
ADVANCE_COMBINED_ARMS "Combined Arms"
ADVANCE_COMPASS "Compass"
ADVANCE_CONSCRIPTION "Conscription"
ADVANCE_CONTRACEPTION "Contraception"
ADVANCE_CURRENCY "Currency"
ADVANCE_DECIMAL_SYSTEM "Decimal System"
ADVANCE_DEEP_BATTLE_TACTICS "Deep Battle Tactics"
ADVANCE_DOMESTICATION "Domestication"
ADVANCE_ELETRO_MAGNETISM "Electro-Magnetism"
ADVANCE_EQUAL_RIGHTS "Equal Rights"
ADVANCE_EVOLUTIONARY_THEORY "Evo. Theory"
ADVANCE_FLINTLOCK "Flintlock"
ADVANCE_GERM_THEORY "Germ Theory"
ADVANCE_HIGH_PRES_CONSTRUCTION "HP Construction"
ADVANCE_HUMAN_RIGHTS "Perspective"
ADVANCE_IMMUNIZATION "Immunization"
ADVANCE_INFANTRY_TACTICS "Infantry Tactics"
ADVANCE_INTEGRATED_MOBILE_WARFARE "Int. Mobile Warfare"
ADVANCE_INTERNET "Micro-computer"
ADVANCE_JOINERY "Joinery"
ADVANCE_MACHINE_TOOLS "Machine Tools"
ADVANCE_MECHANICAL_CLOCK "Mechanical Clock"
ADVANCE_MECHANICAL_POWER "Mechanical Power"
ADVANCE_MILITARY_ENGINEERING "Military Engineering"
ADVANCE_MOLECULAR_SYNTHESIS "Molecular Synthesis"
ADVANCE_OCEANOGRAPHY "Oceanography"
ADVANCE_PAPER "Paper"
ADVANCE_PLASTICS "Plastics"
ADVANCE_PSYCHOLOGY "Psychology"
ADVANCE_PUBLIC_EDUCATION "Public Education"
ADVANCE_RADIO "Radio"
ADVANCE_REPEATING_RIFLES "Repeating Rifles"
ADVANCE_ROCKETRY "Rocketry"
ADVANCE_SANITATION "Sanitation"
ADVANCE_SOLAR_POWER "Solar Power"
ADVANCE_STEAM_ENGINE "Steam Engine"
ADVANCE_STIRRUP "Stirrup"
ADVANCE_TELEPHONE "Telephone"
ADVANCE_THERMAL_IMAGING "Thermal Imaging"
ADVANCE_WHEEL "Wheel"
ADVANCE_WOUTER "Locutus"

Somebody mentioned "Imperialism" as a governement which I feel it's more like a doctrine than a form of gov.

Does the "Paper Currency" mean that you leave "Banking" away completely? What happens to the E-Bank then?

Just my two cents.

Your proposed new techs and renamed old techs look good. I look forward to seeing how they work out in you tech tree. I have just one question, what does the Locutus tech give you and what are its prerequisites?

Your current tech tree (05 Jan 2001) looks excellent, incorporating many of the advances neglected by the standard offerings.

As far as I can determine (from your advances chart) the sequence of your basic infantry units & advances works thus -
ARCHER - (Enabled by Composite Bow)
ARQUEBUSIER - (Enabled by Gunpowder)
MUSKETEER - (Enabled by Flintlock)
GRENADIER - (Enabled by Conscription)
RIFLEMAN - (Enabled by Repeating Rifle)
MODERN INFANTRYMAN - (Enabled by Automatic Rifles)

Please correct me if I have got this wrong... (I know the Med Mod is a "work in progress")

Assuming that the Tech Tree of 05-Jan-2001 is accurate I would still be inclined to add the following extra military advance to your tech tree to better mirror the changes in tactics over last thousand years or so.

Maybe this advances should be a 'simple' advances (i.e. requiring less research or
"Cost in science points" than some of the other, more complex ones such as "Deep Battle Tactics")

Bayonet. (& Infantry Drill) Advance :
At the end of the 16th century foot-soldiers adopted a more flexible battle array and abandoned their closed ranks, initiating the line formation, which foreshadowed the extended order for infantry. The addition of the Bayonet to the Flintlock Musket in 1670 spelt the end of the Musketeer / Pikemen combination on the medieval battlefield. The Bayonet is widely recognized as being one of the decisive weapons of the 2nd millennium, both from the extra advantage it conveyed to the foot-soldier in close-quarter combat or when ammunition had run out, as well as from its psychological impact on the enemy. A line of disciplined advancing British infantry, bayonets drawn, screaming their battle cries in the 18th century struck fear in the hearts of the enemy and often caused the opposing ranks to break and run with nary a shot being fired.

Such an advance should allow an "Infantryman" unit equipped with Flintlock & Bayonet (the unit should perhaps combine the best advantages of Pikemen & Musketers or slightly better attack & defense than a standard Musketeer) - Maybe this is what you intended with your "Grenadier" unit, but that is currently enabled by Conscripton. If "Grenadiers are the assault infantry of their age, and an elite unit" shouldn't they be enabled by something other than Conscription ?

Reason ?
In the middle of the last Millenium after the invention of smallarms Musketeers formed the bulk of an infantry regiment's soldiers. They usually outnumbering the pikemen two or three to one. They were armed with a smoothbore matchlock or flintlock musket and a sword. Their role was to weaken the enemy from a distance with fire power, prior to the pike block advancing to contact. When the pike block advanced they drew swords or used their muskets as clubs and advanced along with them. Prior to the development of the Bayonet a regiment's musketeers had no effective defence against enemy cavalry and depended on the "pike block" for protection against their charge. Pikemen were often held in reserve while the musketeers weakened the enemy with their firepower. When the pike moved forward to engage the enemy infantry it meant that the crucial point of the battle had been reached. Either the enemy looked to be ready to break and a determined charge would see them off or support was needed to reinforce the musketeers. In any event the pikemen had to be prepared to move forward, often through a hail of musketry, to come to grips with the enemy. The slow rate of fire and lack of bayonets meant that without pike support Musketeers were very vulnerable to cavalry attacks.

Thus, it wasn't the development of the flintlock over the match-lock/harquebus or wheel-lock per se that revolutionised the infantry wwarfare of that period , but rather the bayonet (and the change in infantry tactics that went along with it).

Also, whilst Conscription in Modern times was first employed by Napoleon in the Early 19th century (although there were the beginnings of Citizen Militias during the French Revolution, though not necessarily well trained), we did not really see en-masse conscription of a civilian populace until the advent of the First World War. Prior to this most armies were made up of professionals and eager volunteers in times of crisis. Traditionally conscript armies are generally less effective than professional or volunteer armies.

Should Conscription therefore enable a slighter cheaper (and slightly less effective) infantry unit (e.g a "Conscript" or "Reservist" unit) which is available to be built at the same time as a professional infantry unit (whether Grenadier or Riflemen) ? This would allow players to build up small (more expensive) professional armies or alternately keep cheaper conscripts in reserve - as existing units or units that can be mobilised more quickly in time of war / peril.

Perhaps the Conscript/Reservist Unit/s could also have an early analogue (enabled after Flintlock & Bayonet) & a later more powerful analogue (Enabled after the repeating rifle).

Also (referring to your post in the other thread - dated Wednesday, January 03, 2001
) regarding a discrete precursor advance for Pikemen - What about "Medieval Warfare" ?

Also (2), what about the Longbow which is also recognized as being one of the decisive weapons of the 2nd millennium ? The longbow, was a cheap, low-class weapon. It had a higher rate of fire than the crossbows of the period as well as a longer range as well as being much simpler and cheaper to produce. The English longbow broke the stalemate of medieval cavalry battles, the showers of heavy quarrels easily punctured the heavy plate armor of knight and foot-soldier alike. English use of the longbow decimated the French knights at the battle of Agincourt, allowing the English to defeat a vastly superior French force. (A turning point in warfare - The Longbow and the Pike basically spelt the end of the age of the Knight in Europe). The longbow remained the standard infantry weapon in the English army until the end of the 16th century when Smallarms arrived in a big way. Is there room for a Longbowmen Infantry Unit in CTP2 Med Mod II ? Maybe it is another Unit that could be enabled by an advance such as "Medieval Warfare".

Happy idea sifting.

Rgrds,

"About 1670 the bayonet was invented, causing pikes to be discarded and homogeneous infantry to be created throughout Europe (though the expression "to trail a pike" lingered for another century). Apart from predicaments when it had to form squares in order to confront attacking cavalry, infantry now fought in very long, thin formations. Throughout the 18th century a lively debate was carried on concerning the best ways to employ these formations, but basically each side organized its forces in two lines separated by perhaps 300 to 400 yards and moving forward one behind the other. Though the precise arrangements varied from one army to the next, inside each line the units were organized by platoon, company, and battalion. Advancing toward each other, each side would hold its fire for as long as possible in order to close range and obtain a better aim, and then, acting upon the word of command, the opposing lines would fire salvo after salvo into each other. The final step consisted of fixing bayonets and storming the enemy--although, since one side usually broke, actual hand-to-hand fights seem to have been rare.

The plug bayonet, as the first type of bayonet was called, had some serious defects; once it was inserted into the muzzle, the gun could not be fired, and if driven in too tightly, it could not easily be removed. Before 1689 a new bayonet was developed with loose rings on the haft to fit around the muzzle. This design was in turn superseded by the socket bayonet introduced into the French Army in 1688. This new bayonet had a sleeve that slipped over the muzzle and was held in place by a stud on the barrel that locked in a right-angled slot in the socket. The blade was normally triangular in cross section. With minor alterations, the socket bayonet remained the basic form.

To maximize efficiency, Infantry drill was invented. Standards, often modeled after Roman ones, were introduced to help units align themselves, and tactical movements were carried out to the sound of trumpets, bugles, and drums--the latter an Oriental innovation apparently brought to Europe about 1500. In this age the military ideal was to achieve maximum reliability and efficiency by training troops to operate in a machinelike manner. This implied much tighter discipline and organization, which in turn required a shift toward the type of regular, professional forces that alone were capable of achieving them.

The longhow has a much longer history. It was used widely in India way back (its included in my Alexander the Great scenario for instance). There is no technological difference between a longbow and any other composite bow, its just longer! The reason it wasn't more widely used is because of the incredible strength it takes to use such a bow- one needs many years of training, and typically kings didn't have the patience and the resources it took to invest in a type of soldier that wouldn't pay off for decades. This is one reason why its use didn't sweep Europe after Agincourt, or spread from India.

"Decisive Weapons: The Technology That Transformed Warfare" by Martin Davidson, Adam Levy

wherere they claim the six were :
THE LONGBOW (and the training of the commoners to use it as a feature of english society of that time)
THE BAYONET (and the Infantry Drills that went with it)
THE PANZER AND THE T-34
THE P-51 MUSTANG
THE BELL 'HUEY' UH-1 HELICOPTER
THE HARRIER

But as you say opinions are (and will always be) divided on the subject and you can't include everything in CTP2 and gameplay is really the most important feature.

I can accept all that you say about the Bayonet and the Longbow (and yes, those authors were British) and I can see good reason for not including them in the CTP2 Med Mod list based on all the other possible Units and Advances out there.

But with respect to the Grenadier :

"Grenadier - (late 16th century) soldier particularly selected and trained to hurl grenades. Exceptional strength and courage were needed for hurling the grenade, and accidents were not uncommon. Grenadiers earned higher pay, received special privileges, and were distinguished by their height, dashing uniform, and tall, mitre-shaped headdress (shako). Armed with heavy hatchets for chopping through barricades and other obstructions, they were employed particularly in siege and trench warfare. During the 18th century there was a gradual decline in the use of grenades, but grenadiers were retained as elite troops."

Crossbow: The leading missile weapon of the Middle Ages, consisting of a short bow fixed transversely on a stock, originally of wood; it had a groove to guide the missile, usually called a bolt, and a trigger to release it. The crossbow, or arbalest, was an important technical achievement that enjoyed the further distinction of being outlawed (at least for use against Christians) by the Lateran Council of 1139. Its origins are obscure, but its earliest appearance in Europe was in the technologically advanced Italian cities of the 10th and 11th centuries.

Despite the introduction of the English (or Welsh) longbow, with its quicker rate of fire, the crossbow continued its reign as the supreme hand missile weapon until, and even for a long time after, the introduction of firearms. In addition to its power, it owed its long success to its versatility (it could be fired from a reclining position or from behind a parapet) and its less bulky ammunition. The slower rate of fire (compared with the longbow) may also have been an advantage in some situations. Not until the late 15th century did it definitely give way to the harquebus.

----

A good entry, except for the sentence "its origins are obsure", which staggerly cuts out over 1000 well known years of its history. The effect is to present it as a weapon invented in Europe in the middle ages, which it clearly isn't! These are the kind of biases still common in historical writing, and the book on the the 6 most decisive weapons in history clearly shows this kind of bias. Its funny how some things in history are remembered or overemphasized and others forgotten, and strange how the longbow falls into this first category and crossbow in the latter. An example of a completely forgotten weapon: paper armor, which was preferred to metal armor in Asia through the end of the middle ages. Hard to believe, paper better than metal, but I'm not pulling your leg. If we were all Chinese, the tech tree would look very different.