Edit: I've found the problem. I used a "Consider" statement when I should've used a "Change" statement. Will fix for version 2.3

I remember this being an issue in the MedMod for CTP1. Wes added mines to be built in forests, but the AI seemed incapable of building them.

There's a tile impovement build list in the default game that only has the basic elements; Farm, Mine and so forth. Shouldn't that list be filled out with all of the tile improvements? I was looking at that list earlier, and it seem a little thin. I believe that there weren't even any of the Net improvememts on that list, but the AI seemed to have no trouble building nets so I didn't do anything with it.

And with the edit you made to the BuildingBuildList.txt file is there any other file you need to edit so the AI will use that sequence? (Dumb question, I'm sure, but I'm still learning...)

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian on 02-06-2001 11:30 AM I've noticed that the AI did not place a high priority on building Trading Posts. I normally build a lot of them, so I do well economically. Adding a production boost only helps me out further. I remember this being an issue in the MedMod for CTP1. Wes added mines to be built in forests, but the AI seemed incapable of building them.

That'll be a major downer if thats still true. I'll test it tonight (i hope).

quote: There's a tile impovement build list in the default game that only has the basic elements; Farm, Mine and so forth. Shouldn't that list be filled out with all of the tile improvements? I was looking at that list earlier, and it seem a little thin. I believe that there weren't even any of the Net improvememts on that list, but the AI seemed to have no trouble building nets so I didn't do anything with it.

I thought the lack of nets was strange too. Got me to thinking whether tile improvements might be hard coded into the program.

quote: And with the edit you made to the BuildingBuildList.txt file is there any other file you need to edit so the AI will use that sequence? (Dumb question, I'm sure, but I'm still learning...)

I havent had a chance to play since I made the changes but it loads ok so it should be just those files.

BTW, no such thing as a dumb question if you learned something useful

On a new note, you might need to lower the war discontent. I had to build a fairly good sized army to defend against the barbs, and all my cities were extremely unhappy about it. Aint that typical, ya build an army to protect them and they complain...ungrateful cretins I'm assuming that the AI is similiarly afflicted.

The new design for your website is substantially better.

I tried to link up to your site, but its not active anymore.

Got a favor to ask. Could you send me the files that you altered for the trading post fix.(or did you just enter trading posts into the BuildImprovement list - if so, then don't bother. The boost for production is an easy enough fix - as long as I can get the AI to use them I will make that boost too.

And the BuildingBuildList file for the City Improvement sequence (or at least the entry) I want to make sure I have the verbage correct.

I would guess that the lists work in descending order, as the more advancesd stuff is at the bottom of the lists, so placing trading posts before mines might make the AI bypass building them to build mines instead.

Would you also be interested in taking on the challenge of boosting the AI for my Cradle Mod. I have been implementing stuff as I see it on the forums, and your tips have been very good. This mod is currently being playtested, with generally good reports, but it definitely needs tweaking in some areas. As I see it, you have a wealth of practical knowledge with your experimenting, and a look at my files would be much appreciated, to catch some changes that definitely need to be made.

My initial goal has been to implement improvements outside of Slic (as I have no ability in that area)

I have sent version 1.02 to OmniGods website, and can email you the text files to look at too, if you are interested.

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian on 02-07-2001 09:52 AM I tried to link up to your site, but its not active anymore.

I was one of those that had something happen to my account the other night, and it was pointing to the wrong place (notice my new settler status ) I'm trying to get the link to work again but so far no luck.

quote: Got a favor to ask. Could you send me the files that you altered for the trading post fix.(or did you just enter trading posts into the BuildImprovement list - if so, then don't bother. The boost for production is an easy enough fix - as long as I can get the AI to use them I will make that boost too. And the BuildingBuildList file for the City Improvement sequence (or at least the entry) I want to make sure I have the verbage correct.

ImprovementList:
IMPROVEMENT_LIST_PRODUCTION {
Improvement TILEIMP_TRADING_POST ## JAW
Improvement TILEIMP_MINES
}
-----------------------
BuildingBuildList.txt:
add 1 to the number at the start of the file.

BUILDING_BUILD_LIST_START {
Building IMPROVE_CITY_WALLS
Building IMPROVE_GRANARY
Building IMPROVE_BAZAAR
Building IMPROVE_ACADEMY
Building IMPROVE_MILL
Building IMPROVE_FACTORY
}

quote: Would you also be interested in taking on the challenge of boosting the AI for my Cradle Mod. I have been implementing stuff as I see it on the forums, and your tips have been very good. This mod is currently being playtested, with generally good reports, but it definitely needs tweaking in some areas. As I see it, you have a wealth of practical knowledge with your experimenting, and a look at my files would be much appreciated, to catch some changes that definitely need to be made.

I'll gladly take a look at them, but it wont be until next week as this weekend I go to get firsthand knowledge of barbarians, i mean cheeseheads, ooops, I mean Wisconsinites

quote: My initial goal has been to implement improvements outside of Slic (as I have no ability in that area)

I dont blame you on this. Every attempt of mine to code SLIC fails on my PC even tho I've been assured the same code works on other machines.

BTW, expect v2.3 (maybe v3.0 if I re-write the lot) after the weekend. I'm starting to code the full AI diplo-handling routines. In previous versions I left it to the program to handle the considerations, but now I've got the mod-skeleton I'm going to add them in.

The AI diplo-handling routines will be the ones that look at the current position and force a proposal/response based on that analysis.

EG. Player[a] looks at player[b] and says "Hmm, nice border-city. I'll extort that." Player[a] sends player[b] a request_give_city. Player[b] looks at the proposal and says "Hang on a second, he receives THIS bonus, and I receive THIS bonus. My bonus is less so I'll counter-request." Player[b] sends player[a] a counter-request for GOLD equalling value of CITY. Player[a] looks at player[b] and says "Hmmm...... I don't have much gold left so NO SALE!" and refuses counter-proposal. BTW, I got this routine running. It seemed like the easiest to do. Obviously, if player[b] receives a 'gift' proposal it's gunna say "Cool! Free stuff!" and accept.

quote: Originally posted by Dale on 01-15-2001 07:59 PM I've found the problem. I used a "Consider" statement when I should've used a "Change" statement. Will fix for version 2.3

Could you please let us know the bugfix for this i.e. where we need to replace the "consider" statement with the "change" statement ? I feel I can change this on my own in the 2.2 version (so no publishing of the bugfix version necessary) but I would need to know where....

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian on 02-08-2001 09:53 AM Thanks - Make sure you read the posts about the Mod to get an idea what is happening.

Will do

In SMAC you could cripple the AI by giving faction A a city of yours that is about to be overrun by faction B. Faction B is going to take that city, even if they are allied with faction A. You could keep doing this and always keep everyone fighting.

If it is possible, I would suggest that the AI consider the diplomatic status outcome for accepting a free city. If the sender is at war with a faction that shares a border with the gift city, then the AI should probably turn down the free city offer.

The AI wasn't changing it's diplomatic strategy. It considered it but didn't change it. Therefore, in the 'BeginTurn' routine you need to change all the ConsiderDiplomaticState's to ChangeDiplomaticState.

Kinjiru:

At lunch I drew up some flowcharts to map the flow of diplomatic proposals and what to check (on paper of course). Pity I got beetroot juice all over it. Anyways, I thought of just that problem you mentioned. I figure it could be overcome if CityToExtort is within 10 squares of OwnCity which would make the city a border-city. That way, at least it has a fighting chance of getting defense there quickly. If you take into account the reality of supply problems, you don't want to accept a city that is too far from your borders, or on another island totally. I think this simple measure could simulate that. Any suggestions anyone?

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

I have followed the slic and non-slic AI improvments and have toyed myself. One of the main complaints I see repeatedly is that the human player makes gains and eventually "turns the corner" in the 1st century or so and then the game is boring. I have not seemed to encounter this. If fact, if anyone is "turning the corner" it is the AI that is wiping me off the planet.

Here are examples of setting in DiffDB from Alpha.

Beginner=
# % amount to multiply production cost by per age for ai
AI_MIN_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0
AI_MAX_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 0.7 0.7 0.8 0.8 0.9

Impossible=
# % amount to multiply production cost by per age for ai
AI_MIN_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 ## JAW
AI_MAX_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 0.25 0.3 0.35 0.4 0.5 ## JAW

Obviously, smaller numbers benefit the AI as seen between "Beginner" and "Impossible" levels.

The same logic goes for the scaled bonuses over the ages. So why is everyone scaling the values to DECREASE the AI's bonuses as the game progresses. The reason the AI is falling behind is because the human is gaining while the scaled bonuses for the AI are DECREASING!

I have scaled my bonuses in the DiffDB as well, but in the REVERSE direction. My AI gets TOUGHER as the game goes on, making "Impossible" level live up to it's name.

Has this been covered before? Am I missing something?

quote: Originally posted by Dale on 01-16-2001 09:32 PM Therefore, in the 'BeginTurn' routine you need to change all the ConsiderDiplomaticState's to ChangeDiplomaticState.

Thanks a lot, Dale! I did exactly that (in the 'BeginTurn' routine, changed from 'ConsiderDiplomaticState to ChangeDiplomaticState in total 3 times), however still I can get each and every city I request from others (independent from the tonality of my request).

Did I miss something ?

Alpha - any input on this, especially if the AI generally dies out after a certain period of time, based on ranking?

quote: Originally posted by Howie on 02-13-2001 11:49 AM I rarely post, but I have not seen this issue addressed, or I may have missed it. I have followed the slic and non-slic AI improvments and have toyed myself. One of the main complaints I see repeatedly is that the human player makes gains and eventually "turns the corner" in the 1st century or so and then the game is boring. I have not seemed to encounter this. If fact, if anyone is "turning the corner" it is the AI that is wiping me off the planet. Here are examples of setting in DiffDB from Alpha. Beginner= # % amount to multiply production cost by per age for ai AI_MIN_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0 AI_MAX_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 0.7 0.7 0.8 0.8 0.9 Impossible= # % amount to multiply production cost by per age for ai AI_MIN_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 0.7 ## JAW AI_MAX_BEHIND_PRODUCTION_COST_ADJUSTMENT 0.25 0.3 0.35 0.4 0.5 ## JAW Obviously, smaller numbers benefit the AI as seen between "Beginner" and "Impossible" levels. The same logic goes for the scaled bonuses over the ages. So why is everyone scaling the values to DECREASE the AI's bonuses as the game progresses. The reason the AI is falling behind is because the human is gaining while the scaled bonuses for the AI are DECREASING! I have scaled my bonuses in the DiffDB as well, but in the REVERSE direction. My AI gets TOUGHER as the game goes on, making "Impossible" level live up to it's name. Has this been covered before? Am I missing something?

I'd be interested in seeing what numbers you use also. There was a thread awhiles ago that talked about these numbers. I went by the concepts there and changed the numbers until I achieved my goals of the AI always outproducing me, and it seems to catch up when behind, and its hard for me to catch up science wise. The last game I played is on 1700 and I'm behind by 4-6 advances, and havent been able to catch up. We all have about the same number of cities, so I achieved my goal but that doesnt mean I'm using the the most efficient numbers. So much of moding is nothing but trial and error.

So question for you guys:

Do ya want me to bug-fix or continue till I get a v3.0 alpha for you to play with?

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

I don't know if this is a bug in the game or in your mod cause I never tried exhanging advances for gold with the AI before.

Maybe it is just my version or something so I would like to have it confirmed. Otherwise I will have to reinstall the game/mod.

Keep up the good work. Looking forward to v. 3.0

DIP_NumOfPlayers = Preference("NumPlayers") + 5;

TO

DIP_NumOfPlayers = Preference("NumPlayers");

fixed the problem. Of course, if you're in a saved game you need to reload SLIC (either through the chat dialog or the cheat menu).

Just on version 3.0, I had an interesting test last night. Started a hard - small map game (so contact is made quickly). Found the Greeks about turn 5. They immediately demanded my capital. Over the next ten turns they demanded my capital 3 times, and on the last one threatened war. I rejected all of them, they declared war and sent their army at me (which consisted of a hoplite and a warrior). He beat me as I only had a warrior in my captial. The other was getting ruins. This was all within 30 turns. So how's that folks? I just don't know if it was an isolated incident.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

quote: Originally posted by Changmai Beagle on 01-18-2001 08:16 PM I'll probably wait until version 3.0 so that's my vote. (But just in case - in which files would I change the numplayers and the considerdiplo.... statements?)

diplomod.slc

quote: P.S Thanks for all the effort. Sounds good and I look forward.

No problemo.

quote: P.P.S It might be a while before you see any mods from me, being a beagle of little programming ability. For example. I was trying to do a bit of tweaking the other day and couldn't figure out why I was crashing. Then I realized I had left Net Nanny on and she had edited out all the "naughty bits", like "bomb_cabinet".

It'll do that. haha.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.

quote:
P.P.S It might be a while before you see any mods from me, being a beagle of little programming ability. For example. I was trying to do a bit of tweaking the other day and couldn't figure out why I was crashing. Then I realized I had left Net Nanny on and she had edited out all the "naughty bits", like "bomb_cabinet".

That was very funny! Computers, you gotta love them!

I'm rathern new on the block here but that solution to the array out of bounds error don't work when you take away the + 5.

In the for statements you have to change DIP_civ1 to player[DIP_civ1] and you have to change all of these statements !
This is a simple C programming language error...you have to let the SLIC know which array it's about !
The player array !

But having changed this leaves me with a new error. To many arguments in ConsiderDiplomaticState.

I'm very pissed off with the support we've received for CTP2. While a good game, the glaring problems will not be addresses (namely diplomacy and AI ferocity). In response to the frustration I'm facing in trying to get the AI to perform diplomacy, I'm putting Diplomod V3.0 on the shelf. If I don't have anything else to do, I may go into it. But considering how many crashes I get with patch 1.1, and the fact that the unpatched CTP2 has almost no diplomacy SLIC available, I doubt very much that I'll continue. Thanks for your support though.

Except for the fact the AI will NEVER make a treaty or alliance (because of the internal programming settings and there is no SLIC to force a proposal/acceptance), I actually had a pretty decent AI diplomacy model working. But without treatys or alliances between AI's, what's the point of using diplomacy? These two options make diplomacy, not all the others which I have working well.

PS. If there is interest for the AI diplomacy script that I do have working, then let me know and I'll send it to Rich to update his link on V2.2.

Wes, it's a SLIC script, not just txt file changes.

------------------
Author of Diplomod. The mod to fix diplomacy.