i was tinkering around looking for ways to make barbarians use better units and stealth units in the game (u might recall my desired to have them use stealth units from a previous post). i played around with the strategies.txt file and changed it so they would start to produce "special units" along with the offensive and defensive units. so far though, and this is only with 1 game going at the moment, i've not seen ANY barbarian activity. odd...but it would seem when u go into the cheat menu as i did so i could see where the barbarians were, it defaulted my game to no pollution and pretty safe (aka hut barbarians only) mode. this is rather annoying.

i also changed the settings for the risks.txt to all the barbarians to use all kinds of units. basically set the max and min to 0 and 1 accordingly for impossible level. i'm hoping that by doing that it'll basically choose the best of the best. this however does NOT help with "special units". i do wish mr. orge could clue me in on how to set the barbarians to use ONLY special units later on in the game. perhaps this can be done with SLIC...but perhaps not...well back to my testing.

also, i haven't installed either the patch or your mod yet. just haven't had the time to do the necessary downloading.

Tim, I didn't see your second post until now. I am going to begin work on the advances this weekend, after which I will begin adding all the new stuff to the mod, at least up through the Renaissance. This may require a few days. When the beta is ready, we can dispense with the scen0001 setup, and only have the "real" mod.
Harlan is having this same problem with his Alexander mod, however, so I don't think making the mod one-layered will solve the problem. I am still trying a couple of things, and I will try and list anything I can that will help when I post the beta version of the mod.

I will also have to try and work the unit lists the AI uses so that it will make use of all the new units. It does a poor job of using the existing ones, imo. I may need the help of an slic programmer, so once again, if you are out there and want to get involved, please let me know.

I have posted a huge pack of pics from Harlan on the webpage. They are of new Wonders, for you mod-makers out there. More stuff will probably be on the way in the next few days for advances and city improvements.

Woodstock asked earlier about unit sprites. I have tried to include about all the sprites that anyone would want to use for a mod in the graphics already posted. There will be new units people make like the Chariot Morgoth is working on, and maybe some others that I didn't include. I have numbered the sprites consecutively so that those who wish to add on to the Med mod will know where to begin. I don't think there would be any use in saying "if you add a heavy tank, it should be number xxx". There are too many units that people might want to add, and I don't know off-hand what numbers are legal, though I suspect any up to 999.
If you wanted to add units, I am sure that you would be safe starting at 150.

This procedure is how you get the correct civ name and leader to appear on the new game screen. You have to start a scenario game to get all the scenario files to replace the default files.
This is the same way it was in Ctp1, and I don't know why there is a bug with this in Ctp2, unless it has something to do with the multi-player diplomacy problems they have been having.
Maybe Don can figure it out, or at least we can find a way to avoid it, as in the procedure above.

Anyway, back to the mod...
I have spent tonight making new unit build lists and implementing them into the mod. I am pleased with what I was able to improvise, at least in theory. We will have to play-test to see how well it works in the game.
Basically, when at peace AIs still use a set of general, default lists as they do currently for conventional units. I have changed the Special units lists that they use so that each of the five basic personality types has a different combination to pick from. The changes to conventional units come when the AIs go into Seige, Attack or Defense mode. When this occurs, most of the unit lists change to specialty lists I constructed tonight.
You will notice that I managed to basically increase the number of special unit lists by shifting away from things the AIs won't be too interested in building during war-time, like settlers, to specialty units like Marines, whom you only need a few of even when at war.
For standard units, I divided the default lists (offense, defense, ranged, sea and air) up into sub-lists, each customized to the specific situation (siege, attack or defense).
Here are a couple of pastes from the two files which call up and execute the lists. The first series of pastes gives you the lists, and the second series shows you the units in the various lists.

From strategies.txt

STRATEGY_SEIGE {

// Number of special units that should be built
SettlerUnitsCount 4
SeaTransportUnitsCount 3
AirTransportUnitsCount 2
SpecialUnitsCount 3

// Types of special units that should be built
SettlerUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MARINES
SeaTransportUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_TRANSPORT
AirTransportUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_TRANSPORT
SpecialUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SCOUT
//FreightUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FREIGHT

// Unit Percents must total to 1 (100%)
OffensiveUnitsPercent 0.30
DefensiveUnitsPercent 0.10
RangedUnitsPercent 0.30
SeaUnitsPercent 0.10
AirUnitsPercent 0.20

// Types of standard units that should be built
OffensiveUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_INFANTRY
DefensiveUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SAMS
RangedUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_RANGED
SeaUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA
AirUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_BOMBERS

STRATEGY_ATTACK {

// Number of special units that should be built
SettlerUnitsCount 3
SeaTransportUnitsCount 3
AirTransportUnitsCount 2
SpecialUnitsCount 3

// Types of special units that should be built
SettlerUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_PARATROOPERS
SeaTransportUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_TRANSPORT
AirTransportUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_TRANSPORT
SpecialUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SCOUT
//FreightUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FREIGHT

// Unit Percents must total to 1 (100%)
OffensiveUnitsPercent 0.35
DefensiveUnitsPercent 0.15
RangedUnitsPercent 0.25
SeaUnitsPercent 0.15
AirUnitsPercent 0.10

// Types of standard units that should be built
OffensiveUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FLANKER
DefensiveUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SAMS
RangedUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FIELD
SeaUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SURFACE
AirUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_ATTACK

STRATEGY_DEFEND {

// Number of special units that should be built
//SettlerUnitsCount 4
//SeaTransportUnitsCount 3
//AirTransportUnitsCount 2
SpecialUnitsCount 2

// Types of special units that should be built
//SettlerUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_PARATROOPERS
//SeaTransportUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_TRANSPORT
//AirTransportUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_TRANSPORT
SpecialUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SCOUT
//FreightUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FREIGHT

// Unit Percents must total to 1 (100%)
OffensiveUnitsPercent 0.10
DefensiveUnitsPercent 0.35
RangedUnitsPercent 0.25
SeaUnitsPercent 0.15
AirUnitsPercent 0.15

// Types of standard units that should be built
OffensiveUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_OFFENSE
DefensiveUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_DEFENSE
RangedUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_CITY
SeaUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_UNDERSEA
AirUnitList UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FIGHTERS

From unitbuildlist.txt
NOTE: These are the text file names, and may not be the names which you see in the game.

# 13

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SPECIAL {
Unit UNIT_NOBLE
Unit UNIT_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_SLAVER
Unit UNIT_ABOLITIONIST
Unit UNIT_CLERIC
Unit UNIT_SPY
Unit UNIT_LAWYER
Unit UNIT_SECRET_AGENT
Unit UNIT_CORPORATE_BRANCH
Unit UNIT_TELEVANGELIST
Unit UNIT_EMPATHIC_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_NUKE
Unit UNIT_CYBER_NINJA
Unit UNIT_INFECTOR
Unit UNIT_ECO_TERRORIST
Unit UNIT_ECO_RANGER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SPECIAL_PEACEFUL {
Unit UNIT_NOBLE
Unit UNIT_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_ABOLITIONIST
Unit UNIT_LAWYER
Unit UNIT_SECRET_AGENT
Unit UNIT_EMPATHIC_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_CYBER_NINJA
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SPECIAL_MILITARIST {
Unit UNIT_SLAVER
Unit UNIT_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_SPY
Unit UNIT_LAWYER
Unit UNIT_SECRET_AGENT
Unit UNIT_CORPORATE_BRANCH
Unit UNIT_CYBER_NINJA
Unit UNIT_INFECTOR
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SPECIAL_ECONOMIC {
Unit UNIT_NOBLE
Unit UNIT_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_SLAVER
Unit UNIT_ABOLITIONIST
Unit UNIT_SPY
Unit UNIT_LAWYER
Unit UNIT_SECRET_AGENT
Unit UNIT_CORPORATE_BRANCH
Unit UNIT_EMPATHIC_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_CYBER_NINJA
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SPECIAL_ECOTOPIAN {
Unit UNIT_NOBLE
Unit UNIT_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_CLERIC
Unit UNIT_SPY
Unit UNIT_LAWYER
Unit UNIT_SECRET_AGENT
Unit UNIT_TELEVANGELIST
Unit UNIT_EMPATHIC_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_CYBER_NINJA
Unit UNIT_ECO_TERRORIST
Unit UNIT_ECO_RANGER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SPECIAL_DIPLOMATIC {
Unit UNIT_NOBLE
Unit UNIT_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_SPY
Unit UNIT_ABOLITIONIST
Unit UNIT_LAWYER
Unit UNIT_SECRET_AGENT
Unit UNIT_EMPATHIC_DIPLOMAT
Unit UNIT_CYBER_NINJA
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SPECIAL_NUCLEAR {
Unit UNIT_NUKE
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CATAMARAN
Unit UNIT_COG
Unit UNIT_PRIVATEER
Unit UNIT_TROOP_SHIP
Unit UNIT_CRAWLER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR_TRANSPORT {
Unit UNIT_CARRIER
Unit UNIT_CARGO_HELICOPTER
Unit UNIT_AIRCRAFT_CARRIER
Unit UNIT_SPACE_PLANE
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_LAND_SETTLER {
Unit UNIT_SETTLER
Unit UNIT_URBAN_PLANNER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA_SETTLER {
Unit UNIT_SETTLER
Unit UNIT_SEA_ENGINEER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SCOUT {
Unit UNIT_WARRIOR
Unit UNIT_LIGHT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_HORSE_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_GERMAN_TANK
Unit UNIT_SPY_PLANE
Unit UNIT_SCOUT_SUB
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_MARINES {
Unit UNIT_MARINE
Unit UNIT_STORM_MARINE
Unit UNIT_HOVER_MARINE
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_PARATROOPERS {
Unit UNIT_AIRBORNE
Unit UNIT_PARATROOPER
Unit UNIT_SWARM
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_DEFENSE {
Unit UNIT_SPEARMAN
Unit UNIT_PHALANX
Unit UNIT_FYRDMAN
Unit UNIT_MUSKETEER
Unit UNIT_RIFLEMAN
Unit UNIT_MACHINE_GUNNER
Unit UNIT_PLASMATICA
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_OFFENSE {
Unit UNIT_SWORDSMAN
Unit UNIT_LIGHT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_SWORDSMAN
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_PIKEMEN
Unit UNIT_KNIGHT
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_GERMAN_TANK
Unit UNIT_GERMAN_TANK2
Unit UNIT_FASCIST
Unit UNIT_TANK
Unit UNIT_HOVER_INFANTRY
Unit UNIT_HOVERTANK
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_INFANTRY {
Unit UNIT_SWORDSMAN
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_SWORDSMAN
Unit UNIT_PIKEMEN
Unit UNIT_INFANTRYMAN
Unit UNIT_GERMAN_TANK
Unit UNIT_FASCIST
Unit UNIT_HOVER_INFANTRY
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FLANKER {
Unit UNIT_LIGHT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_HEAVY_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_KNIGHT
Unit UNIT_CAVALRY
Unit UNIT_GERMAN_TANK2
Unit UNIT_TANK
Unit UNIT_HOVERTANK
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_RANGED {
Unit UNIT_SLINGER
Unit UNIT_JAVELINEER
Unit UNIT_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_MOUNTED_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_CATAPULT
Unit UNIT_HORSE_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_CULVERIN
Unit UNIT_CANNON
Unit UNIT_ANTIAIR
Unit UNIT_SELF_PROP_GUN
Unit UNIT_ARTILLERY
Unit UNIT_WAR_WALKER
Unit UNIT_AT_ARTILLERY
Unit UNIT_FUSION_TANK
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_CITY {
Unit UNIT_SLINGER
Unit UNIT_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_CATAPULT
Unit UNIT_CULVERIN
Unit UNIT_ANTIAIR
Unit UNIT_ARTILLERY
Unit UNIT_AT_ARTILLERY
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FIELD {
Unit UNIT_JAVELINEER
Unit UNIT_MOUNTED_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_HORSE_ARCHER
Unit UNIT_CANNON
Unit UNIT_SELF_PROP_GUN
Unit UNIT_WAR_WALKER
Unit UNIT_FUSION_TANK
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SAMS {
Unit UNIT_MOBILE_SAM
Unit UNIT_WAR_WALKER
Unit UNIT_FUSION_TANK
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SEA {
Unit UNIT_TRIREME
Unit UNIT_CARRACK
Unit UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE
Unit UNIT_IRONCLAD
Unit UNIT_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_DESTROYER
Unit UNIT_FRIGATE
Unit UNIT_BATTLESHIP
Unit UNIT_NUCLEAR_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER
Unit UNIT_KRAKEN
Unit UNIT_MOREY_STRIKER
Unit UNIT_PLASMA_DESTROYER
Unit UNIT_DREADNAUGHT
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_SURFACE {
Unit UNIT_TRIREME
Unit UNIT_CARRACK
Unit UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE
Unit UNIT_IRONCLAD
Unit UNIT_DESTROYER
Unit UNIT_BATTLESHIP
Unit UNIT_KRAKEN
Unit UNIT_DREADNAUGHT
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_UNDERSEA {
Unit UNIT_TRIREME
Unit UNIT_CARRACK
Unit UNIT_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE
Unit UNIT_IRONCLAD
Unit UNIT_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_FRIGATE
Unit UNIT_NUCLEAR_SUBMARINE
Unit UNIT_MISSILE_CRUISER
Unit UNIT_MOREY_STRIKER
Unit UNIT_PLASMA_DESTROYER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_AIR {
Unit UNIT_FIGHTER
Unit UNIT_DIVE_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_INTERCEPTOR
Unit UNIT_ATTACK_HELICOPTER
Unit UNIT_JET_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_MOBILE_SAM
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_FIGHTERS {
Unit UNIT_FIGHTER
Unit UNIT_INTERCEPTOR
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_ATTACK {
Unit UNIT_DIVE_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_ATTACK_HELICOPTER
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_FIGHTER
}

UNIT_BUILD_LIST_BOMBERS {
Unit UNIT_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_JET_BOMBER
Unit UNIT_STEALTH_BOMBER
}

I haven't worked with the new text file, but I would like to comment on something somebody said about the bug. They said that they didn't think that the game was loading the database the second time around. I think this may be correct. I noticed when I was experimenting with the bug that when I loaded the first saved game, the load bar came up twice. Once to presumably load the scenario files and the second time to load the saved game. When I tried to load the second saved game, the load bar came up only once. What seems to me to be happening is that when loading the second game, CTP2 doesn't know to load the scenario files first.

Just my 2 cents.

P-man, you are using the top, "units" version of the mod. This version is not ready for testing, hence the errors.
I worked last night and got rid of all those errors, but the beta version will not be ready for several more days. I am still getting ideas for techs from Harlan and Diodorus, then I will have to re-organize the entire first half of the game at least. By then, Gedrin should have sent me a version of his XLS which I can use to set the advances costs and enabling settings for all the stuff in the game. I am looking at the end of next week before all this will be ready.

i may have to tone it down but i'm gonna play this game on thru the diamond age. i need to see if it will acquire any stealth units (i have given it tech increases to merit it's units). i did do one other thing. i gave the barbarian AI 1000000 cash and PW and it IS building farms and roads and mines like any OTHER AI AND whilst looking into one of it's cities, it will build happiness buildings to keep it's cities in line. also, it will have it's cities fully defended.

so far, there are 5 barbarian cities on the map. i've lost 4 cities to them through the game, but have managed to reclaim my lost cities. NOT an easy task.

It seems that my changes to AI settings have made a big improvenment, because I have not touched the DiffDB settings at all.
I will go back and reduce the human handicap, and see if that addresses the growth and science problems you are all reporting compared to the AI.

I have finally been able to do some testing with the new text files. Here are some things I have noticed.

1) Barbarians are more willing to attack. Especially if they are evenly or better matched to what they are attacking.
2) The AIs are using slavers again.
3) The Brazilians started a war with me. They then sent a stack of 4 or 5 directly to my capital city. If I had not intercepted it on the way with a much larger stack, they probably would have been able to take it too. The stack I intercepted it with was on its way to the Brazilian city. Too bad for them.
4) Once my stack was back up to strength, I sent it on to the Brazilian city. The Brazilian city was very well defeneded. It even appeared to evenly distribute its troops between Hoplites and Archers. My first stack of 12 was wiped out when I attacked it. By the time I got another stack of 12 together to attack again, it had built its city defenses back up to 5 or six units, again well distributed. Once I moved on the Brazilian's two remaining cities, both cities again had 4-6 units in them, again well distributed. I lost units at each city I took. Overall, the Brazilians did pretty well for a civ that only had 3 cities while I had 6 or 7. The only thing they did wrong was start a war with me, which they may not have had much choice in because there were pretty limited in their territory and I was the main limiter.
5) Science is still going way to slow for me. Putting Monarcy earlier may alleviate this problem somewhat.
6) My cities grow much slower that the AIs.
7) Preacherman's complaints are valid, but I am not sure they are something we want to change too much. After all, this mod is designed to make the AI much for difficult to beat. If it is too difficult at one level then the player should move down a level or too. Otherwise the really good players will still not get the challenge they crave.
8) The AIs still don't appear to be using navies very much. I am in 12 or 14 hundred AD and I have only seen one AI Corcale. This is not good in my opinion.

That is all for now.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The AI shouldn't start with upfront cheats, or at least as few as possible. I don't like this in the regular game, and I wouldn't want it in a mod. There's a better way to have them cheat, if they must: long term cheating. Let them start with pretty much the same stuff, but be able to produce things faster, research things faster. Its sooo much better to have the game start off easy (relatively)and get harder than the reverse, which is what always happens in CTP2, and is one of its worst problems in my opinion.

Getting rid of the upfront cheats and toughening the long term cheats alone will make this modpack a great improvement over the regular. The tougher levels should just have greater long term cheating, not any more up front cheating.

And also, why not make Impossible live up to its name? It seems the tough levels aren't tough enough.

quote: Originally posted by WesW on 01-01-2001 10:46 PM The first time I looked at the DiffDB I was surprised at how much advantage the AI was given. Yet all everyone talked about was how they could easily wipe the floor with the AI on Impossible level. It seems that my changes to AI settings have made a big improvenment, because I have not touched the DiffDB settings at all. I will go back and reduce the human handicap, and see if that addresses the growth and science problems you are all reporting compared to the AI. Btw, check out the advances thread. I have posted the techs I plan to add to the game, and will shortly upload the advances chart for you to look at.

Apparently, IMPOSSIBLE to activision means playing catchup from way way behind. i agree completely with harlan and have removed some of the AI's big lead as the Ai gets tougher militarily. Isnt it funny that the AI starts with a big lead, but then slows down so its not so far ahead. I may be behind in tech, but the Ais cant match me militarily and I just build a few armies and kick butt.

It looks like files of 'Advances.txt' and 'Units.txt' have different versions. Such 'Units.txt' has in 'Unit_Archer' section string of "ObsoleteAdvance ADVANCE_ENGINEERING" but Advances.txt don't contain
such advance. There are several links to unexisting advances such as RADIO, MICROCOMPUTERS, STIRRUP etc. Maybe these files are from CTP1 mod?

Please, send me (akrav@ibrae.ac.ru) correct file (files) and of course correct this bug in your MOD's site.

Remember, you don't have to get the graphics files again unless specifically stated.

Sorry about the crashes, guys. I didn't realize that altering the unitbuildlist.txt would crash the domestic version. I apoligize for accusing P-man of loading the wrong version, when I had made the mistake.
I have added a version of unitbuildlist.txt which has the new build lists, but not the new units. Now, the AIs will switch build lists depending on the situation. You may not notice a great improvement to their unit choice due to the fact that there not really enough units in the standard version of the game to fill out all the new lists. However, you should see some things that are different, so let me know what you do or do not notice.

I have also drastically reduced the amount of gold that the AIs start with in the game. I think that this was accounting for the large starting advances the AIs had. They could rush-buy about everything available on the two hardest levels. They started very hard with 2000 gold, and impossible with 8000! With all the units you guys were reporting, this may have actually hurt them in the long run by giving them high unit support costs from the outset of the game. Now they start with 750 and 1000, respectively.
I also reduced the number of advances they started with on impossible from 8 to 6, and reduced the human penalty in science and food on very hard.
I have also reduced the science handicap for the human player from 25 to 20 for all levels. This is the amount of extra science points added to advance costs for each advance you have discovered. (This is why the number of turns to discover an advance sometimes increases when you get another discovery through trade or goody hut.)
All of these things should reduce the starting advantage of the AI relative to the human, without substantially affecting AI performance in the long run.

Finally, I greatly reduced the chances of starting with an extra settler. It seems that I get the extra settler 90% of the time on very hard level.

Also, I have added three new ages to the game, the Classical, Medieval and Industrial. I only have new city sprites for the Industrial, which come from Harlan's Ctp1 mod.
The Ancient and Classical eras will use the current Ancient sprites. The Medieval and Renaissance eras will use the current Ren age sprites. The Industrial age will use Harlan's Industrial age sprites. The remaining three ages will use their current sprites. Btw, I have re-named the Genetic age to the Computer age.
I have noted the years when all the ages begin at the top of the Advances chart, which is included in the new text upload. What do you think about changing the Diamond age, which will begin in 2040, to the Genetic age?

Be sure to look over the new advances chart, since we are about finished with the placement of advances and the things they enable. It has been a lot of work. In fact, it has been about all I have done this week. Classes start again Monday, so I hope to have everything settled by the end of the weekend. I am detailing all of the changes in this aspect of the mod in the advances thread.

There are a lot of discrepencies between your Advance Chart and what is found in your Units.txt and Advance.txt files. Some examples are as follows, but they are by no means the only ones.

Chart says Battleship comes with Modern Metalurgy, but Units.txt says Advanced Naval Tactics. Advanced Naval Tactics doesn't even appear on your chart.

Units.txt says Sea Engineer comes with Nano-Assembly, but Chart says Ultra-Pressure Machinery.

Chart says Oil Refining is the Prerequisite for Modern Metallurgy, but Advance.txt says Age or Reason and Iron Working.

These are just a few discreptancies. There are many more, but I don't have time to isolate them all right now. Mayby I will later.

Just a heads up for you.

Tim, it's like I told Pink- I have not yet begun to edit the text files to match the advances chart. We are not yet through deciding on new advances and so-forth. Once we get everything settled, I will send the necessary text files to Gedrin so that he can place them in his Chop spreadsheet. Then I will begin altering the text files and hopefully have the beta ready by sometime next week.

I have played some with the most recent text update now. Following is what I've noticed.

The first game I played I lost. I wasn't defeated per se, but I was so far behind everyone else in the post AD years that there was really no hope of catching up. This I think was a combination of a bad start and lots of problems with Barbarians. I didn't even get my second city until after 0 AD. Like I said, I was in bad shape.

I started a second game. This one went quite a bit better. I got a good start and even make 2 peace treaties with the Hebrews and the Native Americans. Both seem to be keeping them very well and are extremely happy with me. I will try to get an Alliance with the Hebrews soon. This will protect my southern flank from that "evil genuis" Gahndi of the Indian civilization and it will allow the Hebrews to expand in areas on the otherside of my empire. There is more than enough room there for both of us and it will make a good buffer between me and the Zulus who really don't like me for some reason. It may have something to do with my conquering of an isolated Zulu city that was very close to my capital, but who knows. :-)

I have some observations about the AI behavior.
1) The Barbarians can really mess you up now. For evidence I use my first aborted game.
2) The AIs seem to be more aggressive, but they still have a hard time actually getting up the nerve to attack you directly. Alpha Wolf has posted some modified files on his website, that he says has made the AI quite a bit more aggressive and hard to beat. he says that using these files, he has even lost some cities to the AI. Those might be worth looking at.
3) The AIs are very good at managing their empires both economically and scientifically. I am last in both areas in my current game, even though I have 6 cities, which is about the same number of some of the middling empires. I am also last militarily, but I have not seen where any AIs have conqured any others. Not in this game anyway. One AI did take a city of another AI in the last game that I abandoned though.
4) I haven't seen any slavers in this game, but I did in the other game so the AIs are using those if they are of that kind of personality.
5) I am still not seeing much of an Navy on the part of the AI.
6) In their older and larger cities, the AIs are doing a fairly credible job of defending them with a fairly good mix of ranged and assault troops. Seems to be about 40% defense/assault troops, when you include militia, to 60% ranged. The result is that you are not likely to be able to take a well established AI city without atleast 1 stack of 12 and 2 may be needed even in the relatively early part of the game. This bodes well for the AI when units like the Infantry and cannons come out. It may be very hard to challenge then. At least in regards to taking over its cities.

I will play this game much further out and give you more information as I discover it.

Thats all for now.

You actually succeeded to make a real challenge out of CTP2. With your Mod the game finally has the features I was looking for since Civ1 (must have been in the 60s).
I just finished a first round and would like to share some observations with you and the others around here (actually the computer told me that this round is finished):

+ setting was hard, 8 civs, huge map. (I should mention that I prefer staying defensive with 4 or 6 cities only. Enough to beat the AI in the normal game in next to impossible level.)
+ costs for the upkeep of city improvements are not reflected (upkeep allways 0, however I am charged like hell).Its very difficult but not impossible to keep a "positive income" and keep science over 50% at the same time. The reason might be that the first commerce improvement comes in relatively late (trade posts).
What about giving roads (to be invented earlier) at least +5 commerce?
+ You have linked aristotles lyceum with gunpowder a second time. I invented it earlier already. Though it didnt show up again after gunpowder arrived.
+ After the invention of internet and building that wonder I have been charged for something in all cities. (computer centers?, software licences?)
+ I was leading in science very early 500AC and remained first until 2150, which could not work in economics and military with regard to my four cities only. But I had to micromanage my cities each turn to avoid loosing money permanently.
+ In 2150 the Ai civs came to close to my territory, so I had to take over 3 cities to re-establish a moderate distance.( in order to keep my 4 cities, I sold everything and went the "diet? way" down to 3 to disband the cities. During that action strange strings appeared in the message box and all of a sudden lots of new units showed up in the build managers which finally took me back to win98.
+ Barbarians: Two or three stacks came across may way early on without being a challenge (you may guess that I have forts around my four cities, ha). Nevertheless their behaviour was reasonable. (attacked weak points and withdrew after reinforcements went into my positions.
+ AI civs: Not to much exchange throughout the game, which changed dramatically after I cleared the land around my zone. Consequently he attacked with a bomber stack (doh) and followed on with three 10stacks of a deadly mixture of inf, tanks, arty and machine gunners. This was the moment when the program decided to switch back to windows. (a good choice!)

Enough for now, colleagues, I think i should show those guys now that 3 10-stacks are not really a problem.
(Im sure I left one or two nukes somewhere near my capital, he,he)

Hope you can understand my austrian-german english

(( 1.) Overall MOD AI changes.

a.) Units. The MOD AI uses few if any special units. I've never seen a slaver used before or after the MOD. I did see a Corporate Branch used, but the computer only moved it around never actually USING it against another player.

b.) The AI is MUCH more agressive! What an improvement! In the early game, the MOD AI game me a real run for my money. Between the AI and the Barbarians, I was harassed well through the game. The AI also does an ecellent job of scouting. I don't do nearly as good a job of exploring the world. It's JUST TOO BAD that the AIs seem very willing to TRADE their better maps for my dinky one!

c.) Specialists. The AI uses a lot of specialists. When I take an AI city, I turn all but really necessary specialsts off for efficiency.

d.) Economy. The AI stil can't create a good economy. The graph readily shows that I pull way ahead of the computer in economy ver early in the game. Some of the warlike AI personalities NEVER even build bazaars!

e.) Science. Even with weak economies, the one or two competitiors in the late game (1900AD on)can still beat me to advances. I conquered one AI and found that he was using an extremely high percentage of scientists in his cities. That explained why the other AIs were beating him up before I moved in.

f.) Navies. The computer still has no naval sense. It's still using aircraft carriers without aircraft! I've never seen it use a stacked fleet either except for two or three submarines that would seem to act as a wolfpack under certain conditions.

g.) Technology Exploitation. The computer doesn't know that since it discovered airplanes before me that it could use that against me to strike my units from the field. I do it to him. If I hit airplanes first, my bombers clear his cities for my armies Blitzkrieg style.

h.) Tile Improvements. While the AIs seem to be using a very high level of improvements in comparison to me (at least twice my 20% pw rate), it never terraforms. It makes toms of mines and farms but never changes a desert to a plain. Terraforming seems more productive in both the short and long term. It will also fill an area with mines to the last square in many areas. Changing a plain to a grassland is better than farming a plain. Sure it's more expensive but it pays more in the long term. I can match the computers heavily aided manufacturing by having bigger populations which is largely due to terraforming bad tiles to grassland. Why the computer would mine a river is beyond me. Rivers mean more population in my book.

(( 2.) MOD City Growth and Development: Size, Production, & Commerce.

a.) Science. Some people mentioned that their cities grew at a slower rate and that science was slower to research. I found the opposite to be true. My cities grew VERY Quickly and science came more quickly than ever thanks to my ajusting empire settings to low wages and food levels. Even so, the computer still grew much more quickly than I did. Is the AI cheating? My cities had Max level 5 or 6 pop while he had large groups a pop 9 cities! Does he no longer lose a population by creating a settler. That's what it looked like to me.

(( 3.) MOD Diplomacy.

a.) Trade. The computer doesn't realize when there are more than two trade routes at certain points. Here's the situation. My computer "ally" was waring with a nearby neighbor who had a trade route that "coincidentally" crossed one of mine. My computer "ally" repeatedly pirated the enemy route which "accidentally" ruined our relations. The computer could have moved one square over and pirated the "enemy's" route where it didn't cross mine. Note: This is not a change from the pre-MOD, but it is still bloody annoying.

b.) No overall Change. I didn't notice any significant change. The only useful diplomatic gambit is Blackmail. Threatening gets the player everything with most enemy civs who aren't warlike. Warlike civs simply dislike you and won't change their opinion no matter how many advances, cities, money, etc. is given to them. Not even the wonders seem to help. The AI civs due seems to be much more agressive to one another than previously. After about 800AD, the AI civs were all at war with each other, EVERY ONE OF THEM. I sat back and laughed while they destroyed each other. This held true in the game I won and two shorter games that I experimented with.

c.) Diplomatic Victory. Diplomatic victory is only possible by conquering militaristic nations that will never make peace with the player. The weaker nations can be threatened into alliances but the militaristics will never do so.

(( 4.) MOD Barbarian Occurrences and Goody Huts.

a.) Barbarian HORDES. A very large number of barbarians prowl around my cities so I was forced to build a mobile defence to scare them off of my tile improvements and to strenghten my garrisons to discourage attack. In the ancient era, all of my cities had a phalanx and an archer. I could get away with just a phalanx before. They probe my cities constantly and try to destroy my tile improvements. However, they don;t seem to use knights or other large MP units to do this. I use knights to destroy a tile improvement and then move away from the city so that it isn't smashed by catapults. The computer hasn't figured out how to do this.

b.) Goody Huts. I don't us the savegame cheat with goody huts and noticed that I found an abnormally high level of huts with NOTHING in them. It could have been random chance. (Game 1: 3 empties/8, Game 2: 4e/6, Game 3: 3e/7.) Hwever, more settlers came up and I never found a "lost colony" insta-colony. This was no loss in my book. I prefer settlers so I can choose position.

(( 5.) CTP2 Comments not related to the Mod.

a.) Terraforming. I desperately wish that I could terraform outside of my controlled areas. Connecting roads becomes very problematical over any distances. For example, in the Alexander scenario, I can't build roads to the Arabs which makes any trip down there a LONG one. Perhaps we could change the system to allow terrain tile changes at double cost ONLY in areas not controlled by another player. Alexander cerainly brought engineers who could bridge and road difficult areas for his armies.

b.) Combat. I wish I could arrange my stacks (in combat) so that my arty didn't get stuck up front sometimes like it does in the new WWII scenario. Warlords II had a superior sytem where stack order could be changed at any time.

c.) Units. Can we figure out some way to be able to UPGRADE obselete units a la SMAC? It would of course have to be slightly more expensive than buying a new unit, but it would be worthwhile and take less time than building a new one. I end up with several generations of "town miltia" in my cities. The obselete units do have their uses but I'd prefer "modernized" units.

d.) Statistics. I really miss the statistics screen from Civ2 which told me who hit writing first and who had the largest city. Those little numbers made it more fun for me.

e.) Pollution. Why isn't there an empire screen that tells me my civ's TOTAL pollution score. Right now, the best way I can figure is to tally my city screen. This would be much more useful in trying to make pollution treaties. It would also be nice to have a "seer" function which would tell me my estimated pollution total before I bought a city production building.

f.) Governments. I find it really easy to surpass my maximun # of cities with the current limits. Perhaps they maximum could be upgraded witha large financial output. It could work.

g.) Units. Why can't bombers destroy terrain tiles? Bombers cartainly went after industry in WWII. I find that war is much easier if I just wipe out all of the computer's tile enhancements. It's easier than trying to take a fortified heavily defended city and I can do it with only a few "skirmishers" (cavalty, tanks, etc.).

h.) Units. In Alexander, it was easier to destroy Persian and other Enemy fleets by stationing a few catapult armies around coast and bombarding them. It sinks enemy navies quickly and protects expensive nets. I think all ranged units should be able to bombard sea or at least most of them.

i.) Units. What happens when two player use Corporate Franchises on a city? Does the last Branch take the production? Do both?

j.) Terrain. It would be really royal if I could perform multiple operations on a tile such as changing a mountain to plains and building a road at the same time.

k.) Alexander. Has anyone been able to get the colonists that seem to be possible from the Corinthian league? How about the three other wives? I can on;y find the Sogdian one.

l.) Ending. Where in the @%$^#$#@ directions did it tell us that 60% of the globe must be covered by the obelisks to win? I read everywhere including within the game's reference before I read that here and WON my first science victory. That wasn't very clear IMHO.

m.) Population. I wish the game would tell my what my city's maximum population was ata ny time so that I'd know when to by aqueducts, hospitals, etc. I had the timing down to a fine science in earlier games but the CTP series doesn't seem to make that clear. Any ideas anyone?

n.) Buying. I wish I could "partial" buy things to speed up production.

o.) Slavery. Why can't I choose which city to send my slaves to? The slaves certainly don't have any choice in the matter! I end up getting one or two cities closest to my enemy that are turned into "super cities" in ancient periods by massed slaving. I literally has a size 36 city (in the MOD) nearest to two enemies in 100BC! I would rather spread slaves out over my empire to decrease revolt chances and to spread my good fortune.

p.) City Tiles. I wish I could choose which city tile set that I was going to use. I wouldn't mind using the little Asian Pagoda building just once.

q.) Razing. I wish we could DESTROY large enemy cities. The only way to do it currently is to either conquer a size 1 city or to "SETTLER" it to death. Even after the city is destoyed, my larger cities won't expand to use the newly freed territory. A large city a much greater potential than two or three small cities. This makes planting cities by an enemy a good policy because it limits the enemies growth while providing a defendable area that's better than a fortress.

quote: Originally posted by tdean001 on 01-06-2001 09:58 AM My roommate and I are interested in running the Med mod i multiplayer. Any suggestions as to how I would go about setting this up? I was gonna try just over-writing stuff in the CTP2/CTP2_data directory, but I'm understandably hesistant

Please don't overwrite the original game files just to get the mod to work.
If you and your buddy use the same version of the mod, then you should be able to play the mod in multi-player.

Thanks to Tim and Thomas for their posts. I especially need info on how income works under the new improvement cost setup in the late-game stages.
I didn't realize that building a wonder which gave you the effects of a building (Internet) would result in you being charged for such a building in all your cities. I will have to keep this in mind to see if it needs to be changed. I will also need to remember to change the preq of the dummy wonder (the second Aristotle one) when I make the beta.
Thomas, you need to review the "Med charts" spreadsheet in the "Med readmes" folder. It details how I have changed improvement costs for some types of improvements.
If you suddenly started getting access to all sorts of strange units, then that means the game was not loading the mod correctly. This is why the game crashed on you shortly afterward. I hope that Don or someone else will find an answer to this problem soon.

Getting the beta files in shape to send it to Gedrin will take a lot of work, and I have been under the weather lately, so it may be a week or more before I have the beta ready to upload.
On the other hand, if I can get somemore info on how the AI works, I may be able to upload another text version of the Alpha with further refinements to AI behavior. This will at least give you something else to study while I work on the beta files. Myself, I would rather get the AI settings nailed down before throwing all the beta stuff at you as well.

We are just about finished with the new advances chart, at least as far as picking the advances and names (the links between advances may take days more to iron out). I am going to post a chronological list of the emails I have sent during this tech development phase, so that all of you interested can see the work, formation and quality of the chart that has emerged.
I was pretty proud of myself for putting together the Med mod I chart, but I can safely say that this new chart is several grades better than that one in both historical accuracy, and, I hope, in gameflow.

edit: Thanks, Maksim, I didn't see your post until I had already made this one.

I have made some more changes to the strategies.txt. Among other things, I have restored settlers at the expense of air transport units when in the attack and seige modes. I have raised the attack and seige settings for some peaceful ai types so that they are closer to the level of defense. I have raised the pillage setting for attack mode so that the AIs will pillage more if they are not strong enough for an outright attack.
I am setting 600,000 as a neutral value for the various settings here. (You guys need to remember this in case I forget someday.) This means that the defend goal is over 600,000 for defense mode, while the offensive goals are under 600,000, and vice-versa for the offensive modes. I have set the difference between the various goals at 5,000. I hope this is close enough so that the AI might switch from one goal to the next depending upon the situation.
Ideally, I would like to have an AI that could go from defensive to seige or attack mode if the opportunity presents itself. Right now I am just guessing at how to do this, but if I can get enough feedback, then maybe we can hit upon the right settings.

I also added Sea Settlers to the land settlers list, so maybe the AIs will start building more of those units.

I downloaded the med mod 2 files off of Wes's site and I unzipped them into the scenario file as directed. I made a file called Med Mod 2 in which I placed them. When I went to create a new game using the mod, I got as far the med mod scenario screen, but there wasn't a "scenario" I could pick to start a game, it was just blank. I realize that I must have done something wrong so if anyone has any suggestions I would be most grateful.

My ideas. Some possible additional advances that might be interesting: aeronautical metals (aircraft grade aluminum & titanium made a big difference in aeronautics), and herbal medicine (in the ancient age, may want to link it to religion and to trade, can even add a trade good for medicinal plants (i.e. frankensense & myrrh, ginseng, etc).