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Topic: Is FreeCiv more than an ICS slugfest? |  |
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ChrisShaffer
Warlord
Chicago, IL, USA
Aug 1999
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posted January 17, 2001 07:12
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I'm trying to decide whether it's worth the effort to either run FreeCiv under Windows or try to get an X-Windows client to connect to my Unix account at work (something I've never done before).However, the strategy and tips guides for FreeCiv leave me wondering.... they all seem to say "build as many settlers as you can, go for these techs, kill your enemies." Does anyone play FreeCiv in builder mode rather than warmonger mode?
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CapTVK
Prince
Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
b.02-15-99
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posted January 17, 2001 15:41
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Follow this thread in the FreeCivDev Archive
http://arch.freeciv.org/freeciv-dev-200101/msg00199.html |
Jing
Freeciv Developer
New York, NY, USA
May 2000
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posted January 17, 2001 17:00
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Hi Chris,Your suspicion is not unfounded. ICS is indeed the "official" strategy of Freeciv. You will find detailed reasons for that in the thread given above by CapTVK. I consider it a rather sorry state of affairs, and am trying to "fix" it. I think I have found a simply way of doing that, but apparently not many people agree with me. Anyway, it's good to see more people who want to play in builder mode rather than warmonger mode. And I hope we will be able to do that in Freeciv soon.
[This message has been edited by Jing (edited January 17, 2001).] |
CapTVK
Prince
Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
b.02-15-99
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posted January 17, 2001 17:33
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Jing,I've followed the thread and think you forgot to stress an important point of ICS: exponential growth a one size will always get two squares of production, a two size city has three. This means that it's far more economical to build settlers to build even more one size cities, who again build setters andsoforth. Once this 'wave' gets going there isn't much you can do. If a player is patient and good in city management, an ICS'er will always come out on top of normal players, there's no way to counter it effectively. Players have proposed countless strategies to counter this, but there's always a catch whereby ICS wins out. One of the ways to curve ICS is to put a limit on initial production squares if you reach a certain number of cities under a specific government. If you hit those limit you first have to build specific city improvements (granary to get food prod, marketplace to get shield/trade) to get full benefits of a square.
note:
ICS has been extensively discussed on these forums, if you want to know more about ICS (or I(nfite) C(ity) S(leaze) as it's called)  do a search on the word ICS in the strategy forum or check out the great library there (all Civ2 mechanics known are also posted here). Also check out the civ3 suggestion list (this document is huge!)
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CapTVK
Prince
Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
b.02-15-99
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posted January 17, 2001 17:40
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P.S Note to all Civ2 players who haven't played FreeCiv:
There's no working diplomacy model for AI players in FreeCiv at the moment. Meaning you can't make peace or alliances with the AI. So in practice this means your in a constant state of war with the AI. So if you meet an AI civ, you'll raise it to the ground. Peace is no option, only war. And ICS is perfect for war...  |
Jing
Freeciv Developer
New York, NY, USA
May 2000
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posted January 17, 2001 18:06
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CapTVK,You are absolutely correct in pointing out that the root cause of ICS is exponential growth, i.e. a one size will always get two squares of production, a two size city has three, etc. We did our research on this problem, including reading the extensive discussions on ICS in this forum. I even wrote a patch to remove the free worker on the center square. There have been many other ideas and suggestions on the mailing list. You are also correct in saying that there has to be some kind of limit when you reach a certain number of cities. And I believe the answer is (un)happiness. Of course, there is a catch in Civ2 that let you get around this. But this is easily fixed in Freeciv, and I have already submitted patch for it. Basically, leftover unhappiness factors will no longer be ignored, but has to be dealt with first before any citizen in a city can become content. This will defititely curb ICS after the initial expansion phase of the game.
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CapTVK
Prince
Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
b.02-15-99
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posted January 17, 2001 18:42
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Glad to hear ICS will be curbed in Freeciv, now a working diplomacy model and we're all set.Nice to hear that the Apolyton forums are of use to the Freeciv developers. Why don't you drop by more often? We are the public that Freeciv is supposed to be for (well, as soon as there is a working windows version or if linux becomes more popular  ). You can get very good feedback about gameplay issues here. If you asked a question about how to fix ICS in the strategy you would get tons of replies in a few days. |
St Leo
Emperor
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
b.02-15-99
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posted January 17, 2001 20:12
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Why don't you make the size 1 citizen the one in the centre square instead of removing the centre square production? ------------------
St. Leo
http://www.sidgames.com/hosted/ziggurat/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/ |
Jing
Freeciv Developer
New York, NY, USA
May 2000
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posted January 17, 2001 20:21
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We will see what happens. And yes, diplomacy is being worked on too.Indeed, Apolyton is a gold mine of information for Freeciv. And more and more prople are discovering Freeciv every day. And you are right again, this corner of the forum will become more active as the windows client becomes more stable and linux grows in popularity. |
Jing
Freeciv Developer
New York, NY, USA
May 2000
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posted January 17, 2001 20:27
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St Leo:Actually, that was exactly what I did. In the end tho, I decided it caused more problems than it had fixed and abandoned the whole idea altogether. In any case, it is a rather major change in the basic game mechanics, and I think a less radical approach is preferred if one can be found.
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rp
Settler
Eindhoven, the Netherlands
May 2000
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posted January 21, 2001 12:10
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About ICS: Freeciv is very configurable and there is some experimentation going on to reduce the predominance of the ICS strategy by using existing configuration options. The main problem is: 2 cities of size 1 always produce much more than 1 city of size 2. One thing that might help is to make settlers insanely expensive, I don't think anyone has tried this yet.
About Apolyton: I think it's a great site, featurewise, but I much prefer to use my mailer or newsreader, it's much more flexible. much faster, and much less annoying. If Apolyton had a mailing list or Usenet interface I would definitely visit more often. If Freeciv mailing lists didn't already exist I would visit, too. I wonder if Apolyton have been thinking of offering a mailing list interface to the site, it shouldn't be all that hard to do.
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curtadams
Settler
Orange, CA 92866
Mar 2001
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posted May 18, 2001 20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by rp on 01-21-2001 12:10 PM
One thing that might help is to make settlers insanely expensive, I don't think anyone has tried this yet.
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Works beautifully in Alpha Centauri. The cost of a settler determines the point at which you stop city development for territory growth. Think of a settler as just a city improvement which you can build an infinite number of. It has a cost, and a benefit - a free worked square, extra support (depending of gov't), and faster growth. A rough equivalent is 6 food, 4 shields, and a trade. If the cost is raised to the point which corresponds to that, ICS isn't a problem since settlers aren't a better deal. The benefit equates to about a marketplace, a granary, and a factory. I'd say a fair price, then, is 150-200. Note: that isn't insanely expensive, it's a reasonable price. The current cost is insanely cheap, and that's why ICS is a problem.
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Thue
Freeciv Developer
Copenhagen, Denmark
b.02-15-99
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posted May 19, 2001 08:50
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It would be cool to seperate the settler and worker abilities out into seperate units. There is more code to do that in freeciv currently, but the AI needs a little work on that point.
That would allow people to raise the cost of settlers.Did anyone mention the possibility of making a settler cost more than one pop point?
[This message has been edited by Thue (edited May 19, 2001).] | |
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