Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site forums as they ran on Ultimate Bulletin Board, 1998–2001. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 2005 site & forums

  Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
  CtP2-General
  Important about artificial "steering" and "thrust"

Post New Topic  Post A ReplyPost A Reply In A New Window

profile | register | preferences | faq | search next newest topic | next oldest topic bottom of page
Author
Topic:   Important about artificial "steering" and "thrust" Format for Better Printing
Ralf
Prince
Sweden
Mar 2000
posted January 09, 2001 15:51   Click Here to See the Profile for Ralf   send a private message to Ralf
Edit/Delete Message    Reply To And Quote This Message
IP: Logged, Admin Access Only
The AI in a games like CTP-2/SMAC/CIV-3, is like an automobile there the programmers must try to simulate two specific human player abilities.

Basically "steering-capability" and "thrust-capability".

"Steering" is the hardest part (and you cannot expect something ridicules here, like a "pass a turing-test AI", or anything like that). "Steering" deals with anything that cannot easily be dealt with through templates or thumb-rules, partly because everything changes in often unpredictable ways, from turn to turn. For example: moving units and some complex diplomacy-related things. This together with the overal complexity of CIV/CTP-games (compare with chess: only 64 squares/only 6 units/few and distinct rules), makes any wishes for something "almost human" very unrealistic.

HOWEVER (and this is important):

"Thrust" is the easier part: I am talking about strategical/logistical choices that can be dealt with through lead-guided template-changing AI city-areas, city- and unit-improvement editable paths, editable tech-tree paths (wich includes AI-civs that automatically capitalises on any city-/unit-upgrade that a newly achieved technology has to offer, according to editable templates), and also methods leading to more effective AI city-placements; like pre-designated invisible AI city-placements (which nevertheless let AI-civs start and expand, either unpredictably from any pre-designated point, in the main-game, or perhaps according to editable scripts, in scenarios).

These choices (perhaps also in any other strat/log areas) can to a large degree, be lead-guided through templates and thumb-rules provided that the game, as much as reasonably possible, is designed in such ways that extensive overal strategical/logistical lead-guiding, through player-editable templates becomes viable.

Finally: also more "thrust" by implementing ideas that lays the burden mainly on human players, like Anti-ICS (Infinite-City-Sprawl. CTP-2 is NOT a good solution to that), Anti-BAB (Bigger-Always-Better, which lead to the Eternal China Syndrome), Rise-and-Fall, some nifty gradually added uphill-struggle world-conquer parameters + more.

The bottom line is, that its really IS possible to design games like Civ-3/CTP-2 with almost veteran-player thrust-capability (without AI-cheating), provided (again) that the game, from the ground up, is designed in such ways that extensive overal strategical/logistical lead-guiding, through player-editable templates, really becomes viable.

Instead the AI follows blindly all these strategical/logistical templates until something triggers it to temporarily take over direct command.
You can compare it with a blind man being given exact blind-read instructions how to move around inside an unknown building. He can follow this instructions meticulously and rather effectively. If he never the less bump into something - he temporally put his blind-read map in his pocket, and starts to feel ahead and analyze the situation. Soon feeling confident, he can take the map up again.

To summorize it all:

Any development-team that works on complex TBS-projects like CTP-2/CIV-3 must try to free up the AI as much as possible, in order to let it work more efficiently on fewer selected tasks. The more the AI is confronted with buckloads of confusing choices, that its suppose to "choose wisely" from; the more its likely to buckle down (and screw up).

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited January 09, 2001).]

Darkknight
ACS CtP2 Modification Editor
Ireland
Nov 2000
posted January 13, 2001 23:12   Click Here to See the Profile for DarkknightClick Here to Email Darkknight  send a private message to DarkknightSend a Message to UIN: 96951342 Visit Darkknight's Homepage!
Edit/Delete Message    Reply To And Quote This Message
IP: Logged, Admin Access Only
How does one respond to that except for, Oh.
Ralf
Prince
Sweden
Mar 2000
posted January 14, 2001 07:31   Click Here to See the Profile for Ralf   send a private message to Ralf
Edit/Delete Message    Reply To And Quote This Message
IP: Logged, Admin Access Only
quote:

Originally posted by Darkknight on 01-13-2001 11:12 PM
How does one respond to that except for, Oh.

OK, then - i give up. I just hope that the Firaxis-team understands this better.

Big Dave
Prince
Texas, USA
Apr 99
posted January 15, 2001 09:35   Click Here to See the Profile for Big Dave   send a private message to Big DaveSend a Message to UIN: 1947967
Edit/Delete Message    Reply To And Quote This Message
IP: Logged, Admin Access Only
Nice points, too bad Mr. Ogre isn't hear to read this. Try to keep an eye out for him and give this a nice "bump" when you do. Also, anyone seen The Limey? I think he'd enjoy this post, too.

------------------
Big Dave

Do the Vatican police speak Pig Latin?

Apolyton Civilization Site Forums
> > > CtP2-General Forum

next newest topic | next oldest topictop of page

All times are EDT

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic | Top
Post New Topic  Post A ReplyPost A Reply In A New Window
Hop to:

Contact Us
Apolyton Civilization Site

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.44a
© Infopop Corporation (formerly Madrona Park, Inc.), 1998 - 2000.

Front Page | Civilization III | Dinosaurs | Civilization II | Call to Power | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Alternative Civs | Misc | Links | About ACS | GameStats
GameLeague | Scenario League | HAC | Civilization Scenario Collection | Spanish CivII Site | Clash of Civs | CtP Maps | Art of War | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site