quote: Originally posted by MidKnight Lament on 10-28-2000 04:26 AM It's in the screenshot you posted, Mark.

just another of those small things that change your (civ) life...

quote: Originally posted by lago on 10-28-2000 07:26 PM I think it's a good idea in theory, but 25 turns? That's a long time.

That's what I was thinking, but then I realised that they didn't actually define how much of an advantage you'd gain. It's a matter for play balance, I'd imagine.

I did not wanted my remark to sound negative, what I wanted to know in fact was: Is it you that took the liberty of calling that gunpowder thing a feat of wonder or is it Activision ?

However, when you consider that the first nation to discover gunpowder has a significant technological advantage until people start to learn how to properly defend against this new weapon I think it becomes more important.

I mean let's face it, in real life when gunpowder was first discovered, most other people discovered that their defenses were suddenly inadequate and their weapons were obsolete - thus the "Feat of Wonder."

It really is a balance issue how much advantage to give to the discoverer. I'd say they should get 25 turns or until another civ gets it, whichever comes first.

quote: Originally posted by Chris Horscroft on 10-29-2000 11:56 PM Firearms would have to have been the main factor in allowing Europeans to dominate the Americas, India and China where long establiushed civilisations were overthrown in the space of only a few decades, and usually by small groups of adventurers/colonists.

Eh, Chris; Actually it was the Chineese who invented the gunpowder, the europeans just refined it. China could have resisted the europeans if they just had tried to make more out of the tecnology.

OK, I withdraw the idea about giving conquerors of firearm-equipped forces gunpowder! I only proposed it as a balance issue.

Nikolai, your point is correct, and I agree with it, and that is why my original post said that it was firearms that gave the advantage to the Europeans. (I also said that it was the use of gunpowder in firearms that was more important than circumnavigating the globe).

Unfortunately, CTP gives you musketeers when you get 'gunpowder'. The advance should be called 'firearms'. Otherwise, it sounds like the feat of wonder, and its effect, is about right

Thats what I like about the discovering feats of wonder. It doesn`t give advantages for your way of "civ life" like an advantage with gunpowder would make for the ones who like to fight.

quote: Originally posted by lago on 10-28-2000 07:26 PM I think it's a good idea in theory, but 25 turns? That's a long time. How about having an advantage until somebody else also acquires Gunpowder?

Personaly i am a bit more concerned about the "FOW" resulting in a "Do thies "FOW" in this order and you will win 99.99999% of the time" game breaker, although to a degree even the Tec trees tend to have that "do things in this order for the best chance of succes" feel to them.

quote: Originally posted by Drakenred on 11-01-2000 12:16 PM although to a degree even the Tec trees tend to have that "do things in this order for the best chance of succes" feel to them. Drakenred

But don`t agree with you though. Just somewhere in the middle of the tec tree that everyone does about the same.
Think its more like that with the governments.Everyone following the same governments

quote: Originally posted by samurai on 11-01-2000 02:07 PM [QUOTE]Originally posted by Drakenred on 11-01-2000 12:16 PM although to a degree even the Tec trees tend to have that "do things in this order for the best chance of succes" feel to them. Drakenred

But don`t agree with you though. Just somewhere in the middle of the tec tree that everyone does about the same.
Think its more like that with the governments.Everyone following the same governments
[/quote]

actualy i was generalising about all Tec-trees

you tend to have a basic patern when your starting a new TBSG of doing each "Reasurch level"(or items with simular R&D "Costs" in the game by going first for Resurching items that provide the best "Sci" bonuses(to speed your R&D eforts) then "production" (production-moral-food-monies) factors, not necisarily in that order) bonuses then "Millitary" untill you get the feel of the games individual tecktree(and even then your optimal R&D patern does not often vary from that basic format). {i would prefer to have the game somewhat randomly alocate the R&D points,(ie you chose where most of the points go based on a proiority scedual, but the computer also randomly alocates a share of the points in order for the game to be a touch more realistic.} and ocationaly you do find items in the tec tree, depending on the game, (ie ship-oceanographic researth on a map that is 90% land, or certain units that work well on small maps but are usless on large maps in the early game)that are relitivly useless to you when they crop up in the early stages of a game, but you can scoop them up later via trade or by droping a turn (or less) of R&D time when you are coming up on an advance that you can actualy use a tec level or 2 later.